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Is death a human right?

By gndn in Op-Ed
Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 02:30:37 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)

Suppose a person of reasonable mental competence decides, after carefully weighing the available options and consulting with those around him, that life is no longer worth living. Should that person have the legal right to end their own life? Suicide (and assisting suicide) is presently illegal in most western nations, a fact which only serves to make it slightly difficult for suicidal people to carry out their wish. I propose a different approach - in fact, an opposite approach. I propose that anyone who honestly wishes to terminate their own life should be provided with the means to do so humanely, reminiscent of (though perhaps more gentle than) the infamous suicide booths popularized by Futurama.


Assisted suicide is not a new concept, although it arguably did not enter the public consciousness much until Dr. Kevorkian (or "Dr. Death" as he is often called) came along. The concept of assisted suicide in the form of euthanasia is as old as the Hippocratic Oath (and in fact, is explicitly forbidden by the original Oath). However, assisted suicide and euthanasia are most often referred to in the context of people who have been grievously maimed or injured, or those who are suffering from a terrible debilitating disease. For the purpose of this proposal, we can divide subjects into the following categories:

  • Those who do not really wish to die, but for whom life is simply unbearable due to pain and suffering and for whom there is no reasonable relief in sight (disease sufferers are largely in this category).
  • Those who honestly wish to die, either due to physical or psychological stress, or for any other reason.

Obviously, every effort should be made to ease the suffering and continue the lives of those in the first category, not just for their own sake, but for the sake of their loved ones also. But what of the second category? We may not understand their reasoning, but what right do we have to take it upon ourselves to stop them? Some societies assume the right to sentence someone to death, but do we then also have the right to sentence someone to live, even against their own wishes?

Legalized voluntary suicide would decrease the surplus population and, arguably, rid us of the emotionally weakest members of our society. The only conceivable problem is that it might in fact work too well - in hard times, people might flock to the suicide booths in large numbers to escape their problems. In fact, something similar happened in early Christian times - many Christians killed themselves either to escape harsh living conditions and/or to hasten their entry into the afterlife. The church eventually had to speak out against the practice in order to avoid losing their entire following, and hence today suicide is considered a mortal sin within Christianity.

Another potential problem is that if suicide is declared to be a valid option for solving personal problems, people may come to consider it as a first or second choice instead of as a last resort. These problems can be mitigated by enacting a procedure that all subjects must first pass through - a series of counseling sessions with a competent therapist who can provide a perhaps much-needed objective perspective on the situation. At the very least a mandatory waiting period could be enacted to force people to take the time to think things through on their own before taking the final step.

IS SUICIDE ALWAYS WRONG?

Living as we do in a culture of life, there is a knee-jerk reaction to consider death, any form of death, a "bad thing". Even capital punishment is considered bad, something to be done only as a last resort, and only when dealing with the most heinous of criminals. However, is it true that suicide is always a bad thing? Are there no cases where someone ending his own life could be considered "good"? What about Hitler's suicide in 1945? Yes, it prevented the Allies from being able to try him for his crimes, but it also prevented any possibility of his escape/acquittal/return to power/{insert "Hitler's brain" conspiracy here}. I submit that there are several cases where suicide can be beneficial, either to society in general or the subject in particular, or both:

  • Unindicted criminals - those who have committed a serious crime but who have never been caught. If they cannot live with what they've done and wish to save the state the trouble and expense of arresting, prosecuting, convicting, and executing them, so much the better.
  • The weak - those who lack the emotional and/or psychological strength to face the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. They prefer death, if only because it's the easiest option. It may be cold to put this so bluntly, but society is arguably better off without them.
  • The incompetent - those who have nothing to offer society, and know it. They are untrainable for whatever reason, perhaps a learning disability. They are only suited for grunt work or manual labour, and this does not agree with them. (Note that I am not advocating the forceful termination of such people... this entire article deals solely with people who choose to end their own lives voluntarily. Counseling should be provided free of charge to attempt to dissuade subjects from this course of action if this is their only reason for doing it).
  • Those who simply no longer wish to live - it may be incomprehensible to some, but it is entire possible to come to the realization, whether real or imagined, that life is not worth living. Again, counseling should be provided, but ultimately it is up to the subject, not the state, to make this determination.

THE SUICIDE BOOTH

The exact mechanics of the subject's death must be as humane and painless as possible. Further, there must be nothing whatsoever gained by the death of the subject - specifically, this means the government and/or supervisory body in charge of the process must not be allowed to charge a fee for the actual ending of someone's life. Any unclaimed assets left in the dead person's possession should be donated to a charitable cause. To allow profit to be made from this process is to invite a ghoulish yet inevitable level of corruption, and this should be avoided at all costs.

The process itself should be swift, humane, and certain. Perhaps a sealed chamber that can be flooded with poison gas, or a lethal injection of some fatal but painless substance. I am quite certain that medical experts can devise a suitable method. If requested, other options should be made available to the subject. For example, someone with a persecution complex may wish to face a firing squad. Others may wish to purify themselves with flame. Within reason, almost any such request could be granted, although in order to avoid a public spectacle it may be wise to stipulate that recording devices are forbidden during the process itself (this would dissuade egomaniacs from going out in a blaze of glory, as it were).

FURTHER JUSTIFICATION

A tragic, yet increasingly popular, method of suicide in some countries is "suicide by cop", which is the process of pointing a realistic-looking weapon at a group of police officers and having them shoot you to death. In addition to being dangerous to bystanders who may be inadvertently struck by a police bullet, this method is also traumatizing to the unfortunate officers who commit the actual killing. Other suicide methods, such as jumping off a bridge or a tall building, also present a hazard to innocent passers-by who may be injured or even killed in the process.

People who are determined to take their own life will find a way to do so, law or no. Isn't it better to provide them a safe way to do so rather than take the risk that they might harm someone else in the act of killing themselves?

Further, a great many suicides end in failure, and many of those failed suicides then become a significant financial burden due to medical expenses in caring for the survivors. The survivors of failed suicide attempts may very well go on to kill themselves later anyway, making those medical expenses wholly wasteful. Isn't it better to provide a failsafe way for people to end their own lives, one that guarantees that they won't become a burden on those around them?

CONCLUSION

There are many groups that advocate death, some more rational than others. However, it is a highly marginal position, and as such, I have no illusion that the proposal outlined herein will ever actually come to fruition. There simply isn't enough demand to justify the existence of "suicide booths" (or, in hard times, the problem is that there is too much demand for suicide booths, on the part of people too blinded by troubles to see that those troubles are in fact temporary).

I nevertheless submit that our attitude towards death is illogical, at least in that we claim to value life so highly that we will actually force it upon those who do not wish it. Suicide is not automatically a bad thing, but because society has deemed it so, people who seek death must find difficult and perhaps dangerous ways of accomplishing it. Providing suicide booths is humane, it is merciful, and it is logical.

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Poll
Suicide booths
o Yes - I would use one 26%
o Yes - I wouldn't use one myself, but I respect the right of others to use one 37%
o Yes - As long as subjects are forced to go through counselling first and explain their reasoning 15%
o Meh - I don't care 13%
o No - Society should force suicidal people to live whether they want to or not 4%
o No - I'm a religious nutcase and my god forbids suicide for some reason 2%

Votes: 45
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o suicide booths
o Dr. Kevorkian
o euthanasia
o decrease
o killed themselves
o culture of life
o realizatio n
o suicide by cop
o a great many suicides end in failure
o some
o others
o Also by gndn


Display: Sort:
Is death a human right? | 230 comments (228 topical, 2 editorial, 12 hidden)
are suicide bombings a human right? (1.57 / 7) (#1)
by United Fools on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:03:34 PM EST


We are united, we are fools, and we are America!
Suicidal depression is almost always curable (2.83 / 12) (#3)
by MichaelCrawford on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 04:52:27 PM EST

One reason that suicide is illegal, and that those who unsuccessfully attempt it will be hospitalized against their will, is that in the vast majority of cases it is actually quite easy to cure. Most of those who have been cured of it go on to feel grateful that they didn't die.

That's the case with me - I have attempted suicide twice.

Most suicidal depression can be effectively treated with antidepressant medication. It's not easy, as it takes as long as a couple of months to take effect. For those whom antidepressants won't help, shock treatment is quick and effective.


Looking for some free songs?


Natural Right (2.90 / 10) (#4)
by Peahippo on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 05:10:50 PM EST

The ability to end your own life is one of the most basic Human rights that you have. We in America at least pretend that a person owns their time, their labor, their expressions, their privacy, and their wealth and property -- so it can't be much of a stretch to say that their lives are their own to dispense with as they see fit. This naturally includes suicide.


you call THIS a culture of life? (2.50 / 4) (#12)
by nostalgiphile on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 07:47:34 PM EST

Hardly. I submit for your reference Sigmund Freud's notion of the Death Drive, or the "urge inherent in all organic life to restore an earlier state of things." In other words, pathological nostalgia. That's the world we live in.

"Depending on your perspective you are an optimist or a pessimist[,] and a hopeless one too." --trhurler
Not a right (3.00 / 3) (#13)
by cburke on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:38:50 PM EST

More like a guarantee.

Systemization of a Natural Right (3.00 / 4) (#14)
by IceTitan on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:41:50 PM EST

Puts too much control into the hands of third parties. I support someone's right to die. But it shouldn't be made easy. I personally intend to take care of myself should I ever become unable.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Yes. (3.00 / 2) (#15)
by j1mmy on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 08:47:57 PM EST

Next question.

yes with provisions (2.33 / 3) (#16)
by khallow on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 10:57:34 PM EST

I don't believe that humans have a right to prompt or no-cause suicide. As MC notes, most people who attempt suicide were grateful that they didn't succeed. Ie, people who simply aren't capable of making a rational decision about suicide. Spontaneous decisions to commit suicide are another indication that the person is irrational. Finally, a person may be under duress.

I think it would be reasonable to evaluate each person's mental state over a period of time in order to determine whether the person was in a rational state of mind. And while no-cause suicide might be doable, I think evaluating the reason for the intent to kill oneself is a big part of the process of deciding whether someone is competent enough to be permitted to kill themselves. Another benefit is that the person could better plan their suicide. Can their place of work handle their departure? Friends and relatives ready for it? Etc.

Stating the obvious since 1969.

Not only is it your right (2.85 / 7) (#17)
by LilDebbie on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:21:11 PM EST

It's your duty. Kill yourself. Your country doesn't need you!

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

excellent article..+FP (1.50 / 2) (#19)
by dakini on Wed Mar 07, 2007 at 11:56:39 PM EST



" May your vision be clear, your heart strong, and may you always follow your dreams."
the answer is a simple mantra: (2.44 / 9) (#24)
by circletimessquare on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 01:46:23 AM EST

sound of mind, unsound of body: suicide is ok

unsound of mind, sound of body: suicide is not ok

which pretty much means, if you have end stage parkinsons, go ahead and take those pills. but if your girlfriend broke up with you, then no: you have no right to commit suicide

and if you are oging to knock yourself off, for the love of fucking god, choose pills. choose carbon monoxide, choose an injection

no one wants to wipe your brains off the bed posts after you eat your shot gun or sweep up your ribs after you nosedive off the empire state building

think of the janitors, please

and no, the san fran bridge is not ok. think of the little girl who finds you washed up on the beach

if you are thoughtful enough to kick your own bucket, think about who has to clean up the ness, k thx


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

You seem to have a bit of a fixation (1.66 / 3) (#27)
by BottleRocket on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 04:13:19 AM EST

Did daddy molest you?

$ . . . . . $ . . . . . $ . . . . . $
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Yes I do download [child pornography], but I don't keep it any longer than I need to, so it can yield insight as to how to find more. --MDC
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$B R Σ III$

sometimes feelings (2.60 / 5) (#31)
by zombie twisted sandshoe on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 05:17:02 AM EST

that lead to ppl being suicidal are "relatively" temporal, yet the person will project their current state of mind further into the past than is actual, and also further into the future than is probable.

So the thought "I cannot cope with feeling like this indefinately, therefore, I am better off dead." is locally rational for them, they just can't foresee a future where they feel better, and  are thinking in a paradigm of clarity at the time (from their perspective.)

 So often it's best for others to intervene and save these people from themselves.


Sigs! Like, Jesus Christo Lewis the Third, haven't you people grown up? - dubya

+1 FP well done (3.00 / 1) (#36)
by kromagg on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 09:40:44 AM EST

With all the suicide talk around the ghetto lately, it was only a matter of time.

Yes. Next question please (NT, +1FP) (3.00 / 2) (#40)
by Enlarged to Show Texture on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 10:49:44 AM EST




"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do." -- Isaac Asimov
+1, suicide booths, (2.66 / 3) (#48)
by whithery on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 12:18:04 PM EST

although dedeadbody-ing them would be a real suck ass job. Of course, it couldn't be much worse than working as a fast food manager, so some might find it really rewarding.

"We're all a bunch of too tall, spoiled, overeducated, wired, drug addicted, urban-dwelling, indulged elitists with no siblings. That is our problem," Sgt York.
Doesn't need to be legal (3.00 / 2) (#54)
by hatshepsut on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 12:47:44 PM EST

I am strongly against making laws about things that are difficult (if not impossible) to enforce. It breeds contempt for all laws. This seems like something that would be impossible to enforce (mandatory psychologist/psychiatrist visits, cooldown periods, etc.), and people who genuinely want to die NOW will continue to do what they do already (jump off a building, suck on a gun, sit in their car with the exhaust venting inside, etc.). I simply can't see how it would affect someone who genuinely wanted to die (though it could *possibly* make it easier to catch the "cry for help" types who might actually be willing to go through the bureaucratic red-tape...I don't believe a genuinely suicidal person would be willing to wait).

All this will do is remove the stigma of what the suicidal person has done. And, personally, I don't think that stigma is wrong. I believe, strongly, that 99% of suicide-attemptors, successful or otherwise, are cop-outs who would prefer to throw their problems at someone else or are genuinely mentally ill. Either way, they need and deserve help, not to die, but to live.

+1 on the basis of an interesting discussion (but I reserve the right to disagree vehemently with the idea).

This isn't really that ground breaking. (none / 1) (#65)
by spooked on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 03:24:48 PM EST

The only rational objections stem from religious tenants. Before anyone quotes the slippery slope argument, you must realize that it's not logically or pragmatically sound principle to accept. The reason for this is that it can be applied to any circumstance or any perposed action and always prohibit it. Second, actual circumstances can never be held as less valuable than potential circumstances. Because, again, we'd have the garrot of possiblity at our throats for every conciveable action.

So, for letting people kill themselves, there are an overwelming number of arguments for it [mostly concerning the reduction of suffering] and none that I know of against, that don't appeal to religious morals. As for the suicide booths, that's an obiviously flawed concept. What about people who are physically unable to reach one? And the cost of building and maintaining them seems unnecessisary. really, what should be done is the allowing medical doctors to make the call in central case Euthanasia, after some sort of group [medical+psych] evaluation.

Seriously.
Couple of issues (none / 1) (#72)
by cdguru on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 04:27:39 PM EST

The first thing is that given the way "people" in general are wired, it can almost always be safely assumed that someone who believes it is better to be "not alive" vs. "alive" is under either duress to make that decision or is not sane.

Duress comes in many forms and unbearable pain is one of them.  Maybe this is an excuse, but the root of the problem is the pain, not life.

Any other conclusion flies in the face of just how people are put together.

Now you do bring up an interesting point about "useless mouths" and the like.  We are at a point where support of the current population is only through advanced - and unsustainable - means.  You can't grow enough food without fertilizers and pesticides to feed everyone on the planet.  While most of the more rabid "greens" would like to sidestep this issue, by no means is it going to go away.  If you want a "sustainable" environment, we are going to have to decrease the population.

Drastically and in a short period of time.

Of course, living through such a period is going to be pretty awful.  There are a lot of ways it could be happen.  One way is through so-called "natural means" such as some kind of flu or bubonic plague.  A nuclear war would also help out a lot in thinning the population, but probably only in specific high-value areas.

Of course, even the beginning of a large population reduction would trigger a worldwide collapse.  People stop buying stuff in France, so the factory in India lays off all the workers, so the financial serivces company in New York closes down as well.  Lots of out-of-work people, no work to be done and a dwindling food supply.

Having a quick and painless way out of living in such a post-collapse situation would be a great help.  Local governments would probably not have a problem with such "suicide booths" if they didn't have to clean up after them.

Wow.  Great business idea.

CO (3.00 / 2) (#74)
by diesel travis on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 04:35:03 PM EST

I always thought that Carbon Monoxide sounded like the best way to go. You peacefully fall asleep (or pass out), then silently suffocate in your sleep. A bonus side effect is that your blood rushes to the skin, leaving your cheeks with a nice rosy glow.

It'd be cool if the booth even had a built-in "note leaving" and "will writing" process too, that would eliminate any confusion. Then maybe it could even have some integrated organ harvesting and cremation/burial built into the process as well.

And maybe they could automatically set your IM status to "dead" too. Actually sounds like a pretty decent gadget.
...

immortality is a human right (none / 0) (#83)
by guidoreichstadter on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 08:31:21 PM EST

if you believe it is


you are human:
no masters,
no slaves.
I herad someone talking (none / 1) (#84)
by balsamic vinigga on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 08:39:16 PM EST

about an alternative to suicide once..  supposedly the youth in Asia have some sort of alternative to it.  I think if there's a viable alternative to suicide that isn't harmful to the youth in asia (like, say, thai sex slaves or whatever) then that should be explored before someone can legally opt out of life....

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
i think that if (3.00 / 3) (#85)
by wampswillion on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 09:34:33 PM EST

suicide were an accepted form of release, it would also be a less resorted to option.  
cause sometimes it's only the thought that in the future you could have the option that stops you from doing it.  

YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!! (2.16 / 6) (#87)
by balsamic vinigga on Thu Mar 08, 2007 at 09:41:47 PM EST

THEY SHOULD MAKE SUCICIDE A FELONY PUNISHABLE BY DEATH! THAT WILL TEACH 'EM!!!!

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
Thoughtless (2.20 / 5) (#91)
by nanobug on Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 02:58:23 AM EST

The weak - those who lack the emotional and/or psychological strength to face the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. They prefer death, if only because it's the easiest option. It may be cold to put this so bluntly, but society is arguably better off without them.

It is cold, and thoughtless, and stupid.

Perhaps I could give you the phone number of my friend Jeff's mother, and you could explain to her why society is better off without her son.

Or maybe you could just think about what you're writing down before actually writing it. kthxbye.


It is (2.66 / 3) (#100)
by Noexit on Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 10:24:10 AM EST

I believe totally and completely that it is my fundamental right to choose the manner and time of my own demise. Maybe I don't get to exercise that right because of fate, illness, or just bad luck. But when I do choose to do so no man nor law should stand in my way.

On a more practical note, the best time to have this discussion or give this speech is _not_ while you're in protective custody in a state run mental health facility. I've learned from experience that the audience isn't very receptive.

I disagree entirely (2.50 / 6) (#101)
by Verbophobe on Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 01:10:39 PM EST

Your arguments are sound and your solution is reasonable, but I must disagree with your premise. In my experience, except for people suffering of a terrible illness, people who commit suicide or attempt suicide and fail do so mostly as a vendetta against others. It would be ultimately pointless to provide these people with a state sponsored way of committing suicide.

Have a cursory look at the notes on the first Google result for "suicide notes": http://www.well.com/~art/suicidenotes.html . They're all frustrated with either society or a loved one. To the suicidees, killing themselves (or attempting to do so) is the worst thing they could possibly do to people. Imagine a man jumping off a bridge because his wife left him, or because he got laid off by his company. The hope is that wind of the event (and the ensuing letter) will reach the offending party, and it will feel guilty of the wrong it has caused.

In fact, you could also note that most failed suicide attempts are merely ways of attracting attention to oneself. Take the slightly hysterical young professional who's just left her boyfriend while her career is in jeopardy. One day, she calls 911 and exclaims that she just took a whole bottle of sleeping pills and she's going to die. The ambulance will rush to her home, she'll be administered some purgative or whatever, and be saved. She'll also get a few days off work and maybe some counseling.

Now, this woman was obviously distressed, and "attempting" suicide was the most expedient way, in her mind, of attracting attention to herself (which, to be fair, worked well). Once again, the hope is that her boyfriend discovers what happens and thinks that it's his fault that she's in a terrible state. However, one must note that in cases like these, it's often not explicit in the person's mind that this is the result they're trying to acheive: very rarely is this malicious.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this course of action or the way society is handling it, but we must be aware that cases like these are a significant portion of all suicide attempts.

In a way, this bears a striking similarity to things like fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue and chronic pain. If you're distressed or angry or overwhelmed, your body will unconsciously create this pain in order to a) distract you from what's really wrong with your life and forcing you to concentrate on the pain and b) attract attention and medical care in the form of surgery and pharmaceuticals, which do give one the impression of being taken care of. This is entirely unconscious and certainly not malicious, but it does happen.

Thus, it is my firm belief that not only should not provide facilities for suicide, but also that using these facilities will, in most cases, work against what the suicidees are trying to achieve.

It is only a very tiny minority of people who want to kill themselves simply because they no longer think they're useful, and you could arguably qualify those people as not being sound of mind, which disqualifies them from your recommended process immediately.

Proud member of the Canadian Broadcorping Castration

What they don't tell you (2.66 / 3) (#102)
by wiredog on Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 01:30:23 PM EST

is what happens after you snap. See, life just keeps getting shittier, but since you've already snapped, you have nothing left to look forward to.

Case in point, today my boss calls me into the office and says "I'm sorry Peter, but we're going to have to let you go."

"I understand, many companies are having to downsize their workforce in todays depressed economic climate."

"No, Peter, it's not that. It's just that lately you've been..."

"I've been what?"

"You've been nude from the waist down and singing pirate shanties. Goddamnit man, we have policies about that."

Now, see, I think this Peter guy, in this situation, has no choice but to off himself. Preferably in the most spectacular and entertaining way possible. Failing that, as he may well do, he should at the very least troll the bejabbers out of K5 with a fake suicide attempt.

The idea of a global village is wrong, it's more like a gazillion pub bars.
Phage

Immediate lifespan rightsizing. (3.00 / 6) (#103)
by Znork on Fri Mar 09, 2007 at 05:02:39 PM EST

The continued taboo of suicide essentially comes down to the refusal of people to face their own mortality. They fear death and the loss of existence and meaning so much they cannot abide others voluntarily choosing to end their existence.

In its abstracted essence, dispassionately viewed, suicide is merely a life span adjustment. No more or less valid than any other such adjustment, smoking, taking a dangerous job, engaging in dangerous sports, etc. Any such activity carries a penalty on the length of life, suicide is merely a slightly more real-time rescheduling the termination point.

Troubles are temporary? Life is temporary, existence an infinitesimal abberation in the fabric of endless nothing.

People look for difficult and dangerous ways to accomplish it?

The most difficult and dangerous way to accomplish it is to stay alive.

The easiest to just wait.

It will come.

Great article. (none / 1) (#108)
by The Amazing Idiot on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 12:46:11 AM EST

However, I disagree with your premise and reasonings.

I'm not trying to analyze every word, but read the following:

"Suppose a person of reasonable mental competence decides, after carefully weighing the available options and consulting with those around him, that life is no longer worth living. "

How do you define reasonable? There's usually not much anything that can be fixed, except for many diseases. Then again, by rationality, killing ones self off does prevent the chance of future cures.

I argue that you cannot declare someone "reasonable mental competence", nor can any test proctored by a psychologist.

Following that, is the "there are several cases where suicide can be beneficial". This idea scares the shit out of me. Simply, if the government has no restrictions on who can euthanize, then it most likely will switch to "active euthanasia". Illegal is the best policy, in that it would take massive support to give "permission" to do that via government mandate.

"Well, Mr Frump is getting old and we have paid out X$ of  the united health fund. He needs to pay out of pocket or we dont pay more. However, Suicide is always free."

"This is the 3rd kid from this unwed mother. The kid needs medical care due to the heroin addiction, but most likely has too many brain defects. We're going to have to let this one go in favor of better candidates."

Euthanasia hasn't much a chance to grasp hold of the USA unless we accept a universal health care. Then the system would be set in that one could be denied even basic care for whatever the reason (or lack thereof) the government gives. You, the dying citizen, truly has no recourse.

Lastly, I have issues on allowing the weak and the incompetent commit suicide just because of those factors. It is a sad day in which incompetent people wish to kill themselves just because they lack a skill set or social skills. Everybody is good at at least something. Even if it's drawing or music playing or something, that is better than nothing they will contribute when they die.

It is worse yet if the weak wish suicide. We, the stronger, should protect the weak. Our (USA) very  Constitution was to prevent tyranny of the majority. In doing so, it gave the weak a way to prevent passage of unfair bills. If anything, the weak need our protection from the majority, not an easy out to save them from the stress.

I thought this might not be a troll (none / 1) (#109)
by vera on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 12:57:29 AM EST

up until the point where it was initially suggested as a pro the role assisted suicide would play in combating overpopulation.  When quantity is prioritized in this fashion, I can not accept you as anything but a robot, bereft of empathy and genuine human compassion.

Suicide is just a universal selection function (none / 0) (#110)
by Pentashagon on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 02:02:40 AM EST

I have two conflicting views on this subject.

On one hand, science is clearly progressing exponentially. Probably most of the posters here will see the singularity, and it seems like an incredibly poor decision to choose death over the possibilities the singularity will give us. If you have a terminal disease, consider cryogenics. For the price of a (nice) new car you might wake up cured in 50 to 100 years. It's like pascal's wager without the arbitrary christianity.

On the other hand, I think modal realism is the best philosophical and perhaps physical explanation for how the universe ultimately works. In essence, everything possible exists in some alternate universe somewhere, which means that suicide is basically just a selection function for which universes you want to live in. Obviously I don't have enough proof to support this theory personally or I'd be dead here, searching for the universe where I'm a god or at least a movie star.

I still think my best bet is the singularity, but if I don't reach it at least I'll be able to empirically test modal realism.

perhaps it is by default (2.00 / 4) (#111)
by SaintPort on Sat Mar 10, 2007 at 04:57:46 AM EST

first I must lay out my opinion that suicide must be kept illegal whereever it is illegal.
The reasoning is that by legalizing suicide you immediately cheapen the perceived value of life.

I am not talking about quality of life, simply life.

If we legalize suicide, we are saying that it is OK, you have that as a valid option, and we as a people have no real claim on you... you are expendable. That amounts to encouragement, and that amounts to manslaughter.

Secondly, that which you allow, you end up either subsidizing or providing an economic playing field. Oh, we'll have to regulate and tax the personal executioners in some way to keep it all tidy. And thus, we again become complicit.

Tangentally, once we have established that my life is worthless, then it follows that you are also worthless and murder becomes much less obscene. So, when I decide to off myself via car accident, a head-on with you might seem attractive.

And finally 'by default' means that since you cannot punish the dead very effectively, it is obvious to me that I am able to kill myself. Heck, I go to a lot of trouble to prevent myself from dying.

There are times in people's lives that the fabric of logic and morality becomes paper thin, and sometimes it is only prevailing law that keeps one from making a tragic mistake. Let us not violate that emotional safety net, please.

--
Search the Scriptures
Start with some cheap grace...Got Life?

doesn't matter (none / 0) (#143)
by m a r c on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 11:53:14 AM EST

there is a paralle between the taking of illicit drugs and suicide which is that people wishing to partake will do so regardless of whatever law applies. It could be argued that making suicide less available to people is a practical way of filtering out those who are really committed to doing it and those who aren't.

The fundamental problem i have with the whole idea is that peoples reality is based on their perception and their perception can be quite fluid. Making a decision at a fixed point in your life may not exactly be wise and i'm sure we can all look back at that thing called hindsight to give evidence of this.

That being said i don't think the existence of people who are alive clinically but dead in the more important way adds any benefit to society and life in general. Prehaps those wishing to engage in finding their end should be forced to partake in certain activities to ensure that this is what they really want. I'm sure that a lot just want to escape and choose this because it is the most clear and immediate option.

Ok so someone wants to end it all, what should we do... In my opinion we should at least try some of the following i) drugs both perscription and otherwise. I would like confirmation from someone that they actually trust their perception enough to know that they know what they are doing here. ii) Taking them somewhere completely different to break their routine and view of their own life. I'm talking up in the mountains, away from civilisation kind of thing. iii) taking them somewhere where they can contrast what value their life has with those who have it significantly worse. There are quite a few places where you could show people worse off and this may impact them.
I got a dog and named him "Stay". Now, I go "Come here, Stay!". After a while, the dog went insane and wouldn't move at all.

Authority (2.50 / 2) (#148)
by V1m on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 04:52:33 PM EST

I'd like to know by what moral authority anyone could claim the right to deny me my clearly expressde wishes in this matter?

As a child, I accept that my parents would have had that authority; as someone diagnosed with a clinical mental disorder, a doctor would be in 'loco parentis'. Who else? How?
"A very special kind of stupidity"

Basic questions to ask (none / 0) (#170)
by stuaart on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 11:54:00 AM EST

I missed the voting, but +1FP anyway. Some issues, though.

I think that in order to judge whether suicide is permissible or not, we need to discuss what has mostly thus far been mentioned only in passing: suicide's social nature. Suicide is inherently a social act; it's impossible to have a `private' suicide.

A useful case to draw out the tensions in suicide is the most debated one: i.e., those who are in some kind of continual pain, and their right to end their life. Whether that pain is physical or psychological is another matter I can't really think about right now. In the case of continual pain, the suicide should be weighed up in two terms: 1) the suicide's impact upon the social world (i.e., no longer having to care for you, relief that you are no longer in pain, their pain at the inevitable loss, burdens of paperwork and general legacy...), and 2) the essential personal rights (i.e., the right to end life when there are reasonable impediments to a basic enjoyment of it, the right to control one's life).

Obviously there is always a tension in society between personal rights and social rights. Lots of people cite the argument that personal rights always supersede societal rights `as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.' But clearly it's never as simple as that and there are very few actual cases where personal rights and societal rights are mutually exclusive.

Linkwhore: [Hidden stories.] Baldrtainment: Corporate concubines and Baldrson: An Introspective


Yes, next question! (none / 0) (#192)
by V on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 02:10:58 PM EST


---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens
Death in our times (1.00 / 2) (#197)
by stock on Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 08:11:01 PM EST

Death is a sad possibility on how your life on earth ends. Currently its the default way. humans die, cows die, chickens die, trees die. I know of a living tree over 1000 years old. In the Old Testament (a Testimony under God's oath of old times) it's reported that Noah lived over 900 years :

Book of Genesis :

9:28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.

9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

Well Noah was one blessed man under God for sure. The troubles rise for people who never made it to the Ark, and were under the force of evil. The ultimate evil grounds were swamps in Vietnam where the American G.I. after being dropped had a projected living time  of less than 45 secs. Compare that to dropping mice into a snake pit. Want to improve the life time of mice? Remove the snakes from the pit. In general, want to improve expected lifetimes? Make sure evil is removed from your areas.

Robert
Issues concerning the Desire of a New World Order

Life is so much easier with religion (none / 0) (#205)
by johntheblonde on Fri Mar 16, 2007 at 01:00:58 AM EST

You don't have to think about complex moral issues that have no definite answer.  Just do what the church tells you!  

What we need to do is actively encourage suicide (none / 0) (#223)
by IceTitan on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 07:36:24 PM EST

in certain groups, ala the movie Heathers. Paris Hilton would be a good candidate. Tell her all the cool kids are doing it. Simon Cowell would be a fine example also. Lawyers, politicians, elected officials. Frat boys, college republicans and dirty hippies. Fundamentally religious and non-religious people, basically anyone in a personality cult. There are too many groups to list. So I'll just say do it. Kill yourself.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
precedence in practice (none / 0) (#235)
by blufox on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:02:55 PM EST

The jain practice of Santhara (Fasting to death) is a wilful act of suicide that is not looked upon as crime. Some one committing Santhara gets enough time to contemplate on their decision before the life ends, but is very prolonged.

The japanese practice of seppuku (harakiri) is at the opposite spectrum. It is quick and generally committed to attennuate shame. (The failure to commit might be a greater shame.)

Mention must also be made of Sati which degenerated into a criminal and forceful practice (due to the involvement of interested parties).
.

Is death a human right? | 230 comments (228 topical, 2 editorial, 12 hidden)
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