Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
In Defense of Clapton's Layla

By Jason the Mathematical Solo Guitarist in Op-Ed
Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 10:17:13 AM EST
Tags: Music (all tags)
Music

Recently, GuitarWorld magazine published a list of top 100 of the worst guitar solos, riffs and licks of all time. I am a big sucker for this sort of thing, so I swallowed the $7.95 price to purchase it, with a good expectation of what would be included. Just as literary scholars have a canon of great literature, the guitarist community has a canon of really awful guitar solos - including, for instance, Neil Young's infamous one-note Cinnamon Girl solo, anything by Van Halen, and anything played by Kurt Cobain. When I turned to the list, I suffered a cruel, horrible shock.


Their criteria for judging what solos were bad seemed minimal, something along the lines of "OMG 80S HAIR!!!11ONE!". Neil Young's Cinnamon Girl didn't make the list [see footnote], and I was disheartened by some of the bands that did - The Who, for example, was on there for their song "Eminence Front." While there were some bands that made the list who clearly deserved it - Poison - for example, I threw down the magazine confident that it was just a poorly generated list, and that no harm was meant.

Upon second examination, I saw a sidebar that I did not see before - songs renowned for their guitar solos that they considered bad. "Freebird" was on there, as was "Yellow Ledbetter" by Pearl Jam, and one of my favorites - "Green Grass and High Tides" by the Outlaw. But what really crossed the line is Clapton's Layla recorded when he was with Derek and the Dominos.

Their argument? Putting a beautifully recorded piano track while Allman and Clapton were playing slide guitar out of tune.

There are a number of problems with this inappropriate critism. If you are familiar with the remarkable outro to Layla, you are familiar with the slide guitars building to the one. It starts with one slide guitar playing high on the fret board and progressively continues to two or 3 and then more slide guitars (and then a rhythm guitar). Each guitar plays a single note in the ensemble, and they all play their own parts, but what makes it different is that it sounds good. If you've ever tried recording your own music, you know how difficult it is to make 2 instruments playing different parts sound good, much less a plethora of them.

Their main criticism is that the slide guitars are out of tune. The problem with this statement is that it is impossible to prove. By definition, a slide guitar playing individual notes along the fretboard can never be shown to be in or out of tune, unless you are watching the guitarist play it live. Why? Because with a slide, you could hit, for example, a C, and you can hit a C#, but you can also hit every non-note in between, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Guitarists like to hit these notes, which I'll call "tweeners" for now on, and they do it with or without a slide guitar - every time a guitarist bends a string, they are hitting tweeners.

This counterargument doesn't kill the magazine's argument - you could always make the counterpoint, for example, that Clapton and Allman shouldn't hit those notes. Indeed, hitting only tweener's is simply bad guitar playing. And this would be the end of the story, if this were all there were to it.

Of course, there is more. As it turns out, the piano is "out-of-tune" itself. How does this happen? The original outro was recorded in the key of C, but later, during production, it was sped up. And what happens, ladies and gentleman, when you speed up a recording? The pitch becomes higher. This is actually a very common production trick used all the time to fix recordings that just don't sound right; the most popular example of this trick is The Car's "Best Friend's Girlfriend", originally recorded in E but later sped up to F. If you look at the music video, the guitarist is playing the song in E. If you listen to the live recording, the song is played in E (and it doesn't sound right). If you listen on the radio, the song was played in E but it sounds like it was played in F.

This was exactly what was done with the outro to Layla. It was recorded in C, and later sped up so it sounds like it was recorded in a higher key. If you'd like to see an interesting consequence of this, go into Google groups and try to find what key the outro to the song Layla is written in. You will find a whole bunch of people arguing amongst themselves - most of them claiming to have "perfect pitch." Most people argue C# or D, some people still argue C. The answer, of course, is none of those.

If you are a layman, it probably looks like this doesn't kill the magazines argument against Layla. "Surely now - albeit not Clapton or Allman's fault - it is the fault of the producer. They should have 'fixed' it in the production phase so that the instrumentalists wouldn't hit only tweener notes." At this point, though, it doesn't matter. In the original recording, the guitars and pianos were in tune with each other, so after production they are still in tune with each other, although in a key that somewhere in between C and C#. Because they are relatively in tune, the song works - none of the notes sound "sharp" or "off" and, in fact, it takes someone who is very able at guitar or has near perfect pitch to tell the difference.

The argument of the magazine was specious and insulting to one of the greatest guitar legends of all time. Although their mistake was of poor or complete lack of research into their article, it is somewhat embarassing that a magazine devoted to guitar would not know the story about one of the most famous, beautiful rock love songs of all time.

Footnote: At first glance, I was upset that Cinnamon Girl didn't make the list, but the list seemed to redeem itself by putting a Neil Young song in the 60s that, although didn't get much radio airplay, had TWO one-note guitar solos in it. Still, Cinnamon Girl is the classic shit solo and should have made the list.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Related Links
o Google
o Also by Jason the Mathematical Solo Guitarist


Display: Sort:
In Defense of Clapton's Layla | 181 comments (136 topical, 45 editorial, 0 hidden)
Here's a tip (2.56 / 16) (#2)
by debacle on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 04:32:17 PM EST

On how to get people to read kuro5hin a magazine:

Act like everything that anyone really appreciates sucks, use some far out way of acting like you have an authority, and then adamantly and pretentiously forge a vapid "style."

The emperor's new clothes.

It tastes sweet.

Links? (none / 1) (#5)
by CivisHumanus on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 05:12:58 PM EST

Where's the rest of the list ?

Actually... (2.85 / 7) (#6)
by jd on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 05:22:29 PM EST

If you have an analogue system, such as a slide guitar or any analog synthesizer, it is possible to prove whether you're in tune or not. Mathematically, you are ALWAYS out of tune. (An infinite number of possible slider positions, only ONE is valid, in the "pure" sense. The odds of getting to that point - or any other specific point - is essentially zero.)

The point is, it doesn't matter. You're not after the "A" note, you're after the sound in the vicinity of "A" which, when played with other notes also in the vicinity of where they want to be, you meet the geometrical requirements of what sounds good.

(The ancient Greeks, who discovered chords in music, didn't discover them by sacrificing goats to a magazine editor. They got them by playing instruments in various combinations until they understood what harmonics worked well together.)

IMHO, if you want to know if an instrumental piece is "good", in any way that is likely to be agreed upon, you could just get a computer to scan the notes played and compare those with the geometrical descriptions of what actually sounds good. If the error is small to none, the chances are the music'll be pleasent to good.

On the other hand, if the error is anything other than trivial, the combination will sound "sour". Sometimes, that's wanted, so you'd then have to check those hits by hand (or ear).

To build up a list of "worst" pieces, you'd look for such evidence for pieces that are badly played.

It's much harder to detect music that just isn't any good, but there are certain mathematical rules which will be followed. Good music tends to follow a 1/f distribution, but that doesn't make all 1/f music good. However, if you're waaaay off 1/f, then there's a good chance it'll sound screwed up.

Much beyond that, you're getting subjective. However, the universality of the geometry of harmonics and the 1/f distribution, across all cultures and across all music types, suggests that those really are valid ways of building up initial lists of what's good and bad.

WTF OMG NO! (2.55 / 9) (#8)
by Dont Fear The Reaper on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 05:50:27 PM EST

Tell me you did not just diss Van Halen. Eruption has got to be without question the single greatest thing ever in the history of guitar, and that's just one part of the grand swath Van Halen has carved for themselves in rock music legend. I think you're practicing the same cheap tactics as the music magazines, as far as making controversial statements for the sole purpose of generating noise, and hopefully getting more people to read what amounts to a boring piece of music geekery.

His kid committed suicide because he sucks (1.11 / 36) (#13)
by Big Sexxy Joe on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:36:33 PM EST

ERIC CLAPTON SUCKS, ERIC CLAPTON SUCKS
ERIC CLAPTON'S GAY, AND HE'S FUCKING GAY
YOUR FATHER IS THE 4TH WORST SONG WRITER
AFTER SPRINGSTEEN, SEGER AND PETTY

YOU WERE SICK OF HIS GAY FUCKING SONGS
SO YOU JUMPED OUT A REALLY HIGH UP WINDOW
YOUR FATHER SUCKS SO FUCKING BAD
YOU KNEW YOU'D GET BEATEN UP AT SCHOOL

YOU WERE SICK OF HEARING "YOU LOOK WONDERFUL TONIGHT"
SO YOU JUMPED OUT A REALLY HIGH UP WINDOW
SOMETIMES I WISH YOU DIDEN'T DIE
BECAUSE I HATE THE SONG "TEARS IN HEAVEN"
I WAS GLAD YOU DIED UNTIL I HEARD THAT SONG
AND KEVIN SHARP IS GAY


I'm like Jesus, only better.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour

stuff like this is silly (2.69 / 13) (#15)
by suntzu on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 06:46:14 PM EST

maybe it's just because i don't know any music theory, but i think using technical merit or theoretical composition quality as any sort of significant judge of the quality of a piece of music is just stupid. technical skill is the icing on the cake. what really matters is whether you enjoy piece of music. trying to make objective judgements about music sucks the fun out of it. bullshitting and arguing without conclusion is much more satisfying.

you know what's ironic? the videogame criticism community understands this better than the music criticism community, and videogames are much easier to judge on technical merits. but i guarantee that a game that looks absolutely beautiful and has great sound will get panned if it's no fun or has no immersiveness or emotional impact.

I agree with everything you say, (1.28 / 7) (#20)
by Esspets on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 07:28:49 PM EST

except for Freebird. Really, the Freebird guitar solo is totally out of control. +1FP


Desperation.
Um... (2.60 / 10) (#21)
by trhurler on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 07:34:56 PM EST

Who cares?

Seriously, magazines covering popular music are, always have been, and always will be complete shit. So what?

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

vapid, even for you. (1.40 / 22) (#24)
by the ghost of rmg on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 07:47:26 PM EST

wow.

also, i'd just like to interject the following:

KURT COBAIN WAS A HERO WHO DIED FOR HIS MUSIC!

FUCK YOU AND ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE!!


rmg: comments better than yours.

another guitar magazine article ... (2.60 / 5) (#26)
by pyramid termite on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 07:58:48 PM EST

... designed to cause silly arguments ... they have to do this a few times a year it seems ... the live version of "sympathy for the devil" a bad guitar solo? ... puh-leeze ... and even though i'm tired of peter frampton's "do you feel", i've got to admit there's some pretty phrases in there when he isn't abusing the talk box

oh, and a real close listen to cinnamon girl, which rocks, will reveal that neil's letting a couple of the other strings resonate as he's playing that "one note solo" ... so it really isn't a one note solo at all, is it?

i guess if you weren't able to hear that, then you aren't really qualified to comment on it


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.

In the day (2.60 / 5) (#59)
by minerboy on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 09:05:50 PM EST

When Layla was recorded, music was sold on Vinyl. Turntables could be adjusted for speed, so pitch could be corrected as much as half a tone - I wonder if the problem these so called experts had is that they used the remastered digital recording, rather than listening using the original analog ?



Um (2.40 / 10) (#64)
by felixrayman on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 10:13:11 PM EST

Wow. I haven't learned anything about guitar solos from reading the comments to this, but I have learned, with a high degree of confidence, that Esspets is a big fat fucking whiny bitch.

Call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him our sorry asses are ready to go home. Tell him to come spend a night in our building. - Pfc. Matthew C. O'Dell

Where's the Malmsteen? (2.50 / 2) (#66)
by Grahhh on Thu Dec 02, 2004 at 11:02:04 PM EST

Sure, he's been doing the same stuff for years, his lyrics are total cheese, and, from the last picture I saw of him, he's gotten fat, but the guy can play like no other.

D to C-C# (3.00 / 6) (#70)
by Blarney on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 12:05:52 AM EST

The outro of Layla is actually in a different key from the rest of the song - the song is in D, with a typically rock styled major-minor ambiguity.

There's a sort of a fade before the outro starts up with the controversial call-it-a-C/E chord on the piano. So the song has moved down from a D to a C for the outro, down a whole step - an interesting contrast to the great many songs which go up a whole step in their outro. With this sharpening of the piano, it's more like the song goes down by a "blue" interval, not quite a whole step but more than a half step - and no other song that I know of does this. Maybe it's a studio accident, but it's a very original move just the same and it makes the initial piano chord stand out more than it otherwise would. Going down by a blue interval is a classic part of a blues turnaround, and the outro of Layla becomes a turnaround that goes on, and on, and on.....

So my opinion would be that the outro of Layla is not out-of-tune, it's just a modulation which doesn't exactly fit the 12-tone system. And it does, to my subjective senses, have musical merit.

If you want to hear what is, in my view, a less musical example of the same sort of studio mishap, check out the Beatles Strawberry Fields. It is stitched together from two slightly detuned performances as well. But it doesn't really have the same impact as the Layla example, in my humble opinion of course.

Just couldn't let it rest, could you? (2.25 / 8) (#74)
by Kasreyn on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 03:54:06 AM EST

You know, you might have gotten my +1SP if you had been content merely with posting a smug, patronizing, partisan geek rant. That's one of our specialties here at k5. But then you had to go and allow yourself to be baited by the biggest idiot currently operating here.

For shame, sir. FOR SHAME. -1

P.S. The main upshot here is that you spent $7.95 to feel superior to us. I hope you at least wiped your monitor. Another satisfied suckercustomer.


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
-1, guitars (2.00 / 11) (#79)
by nebbish on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 05:59:55 AM EST

We have sequencers and stuff now grandad.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

did you just diss Kurt Cobain? (1.91 / 12) (#100)
by thekubrix on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 02:40:40 PM EST

You're a dipshit, and I have NO respect for you or your poorly written article.

-1 for you asshole

Let's see here (3.00 / 5) (#103)
by codejack on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 03:59:00 PM EST

First off, all you had to do was say was "these dipshits are saying that Eric Clapton and Duane Allman don't know how to play guitar! Let's drive to their homes, shoot their dogs, and seel their children into slavery!"

Other than that, I have a few little nitpicks:
  1. Say what you will about Eddie van Halen, the mofo can play the guitar; Just don't listen to anything he did after David Lee Roth left the band.
  2. If the people at Guitarworld magazine really knew how to play guitar, what the fuck would they be doing writing a magazine? Fuck them!
  3. Unless you have, somewhere, the original sheet music, or a quote from Clapton saying what key it was written in (not Allman; If he'd been asked, he would probably have said E#), who knows which it was?
  4. Did the Violent Femmes make the list?
Other than that, good article.


Please read before posting.

I agree +1 FP (none / 0) (#108)
by SaintPort on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 06:19:59 PM EST

with your accessment of the article and now provide a link to

guitarbar.sourceforge.net as mentioned in my earlier story and diary.

Have not done anything new or useful with guitarbar lately, but if there are any aspiring guitarists out there who like 16bit textmode software, well, here it is.

<><

--
Search the Scriptures
Start with some cheap grace...Got Life?

The real Clapton critisism (1.30 / 13) (#112)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:44:57 PM EST

Why is it when Michael Jackson, with a firm grip on Blanket, his baby, holds him out to a crowd below his balcony eager to see the him people call him a crazy child-endangering looney who should be prosecuited....... and then when Clapton is irresponsible enough to let his son fall to his death out of a window it's "ohhh poor Clapton, there will be no more tears in heaven! :`(((((("

Fuckin double standard racist hypocrites.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!

I posted the top 100 list in my diary (3.00 / 3) (#134)
by Jason the Mathematical Solo Guitarist on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 04:47:00 PM EST

You can get it here:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/12/4/164535/181

In a math sense this sig is just applied group theory: what we are talking about is the decomposition of the direct product of 2 irreducible representations of the rotation group into a direct sum of irreducible representations

the Cobain slam (2.55 / 9) (#160)
by tuj on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 12:45:53 AM EST

I know its already been posted, but this hit me hard.  Ok, so music is pretty personal, you either liked Nirvana or not.  I read so many comments about what a terrible guitarist Kurt Cobain was.

I truly disagree with that.  While no one denies that Kurt couldn't play quintuplet tapping licks like Van Halen, he did have something special.  His touch and sound were remarkable.  I haven't heard many people who've had as raw and aggressive a sound.  His solo's were always simple, tasteful things.  I feel like the best one he did is on the No Alternative Albini recording of Verse Chorus Verse.  Check it out if you haven't; its probably the best Nirvana song ever.

He was also masterful at feedback sounds.  Sure, laugh if you want, its actually quite hard to get some of those sounds, and be able to control them, and conjure them at will.  Sonic Youth is probably the best at this nowdays.  Kurt had some very interesting techniques for getting his sounds, like tapping the back of the neck at the 4th fret.

So what makes a good solo?  I appreciate technical skill as much as anyone, but I feel strongly that solos are in the tradition of jazz/blues players, meant to express emotion.  Technical proficiency is just like having a larger vocabulary; that in itself doesn't make what you say any more profound.

Judging solos seems kind of moronic to me.  I mean, I hate the masturbatory crap that is the solo of Freebird, but I'm sure there's plenty of people who think that's ace.  I can understand the perspective of guitar players who've spent lots of time perfecting their technique, to be incensed at the fame of relatively unschooled folks like Cobain or Greenday.  Guess what?  Fuck you.  Their music appeals to people at some level, and that's what really matters.  

So call the masses stupid and uneducated; at the end of the day I don't really care if some guitarist is playing in the wrong position, or if he's playing easier chord shapes (and yes I played guitar for a number of year, so I have an appreciation of the technical skill of people like Van Halen, even if I don't like their music).  If it sounds good, the means to the end don't matter.  And complexity does not make music better in and of itself.  Judging music is so personal that's its asinine to think that your opinion on music, in terms of one piece being better than another, has any relevance to anyone else.  The only real standard you can apply is how many people like a piece of music; that's the true measure of its impact.  And in a world of pop superstars, that can be a scary standard.  Its totally right and necessary to have your own opinions on art, but don't ranking shit and expect people to agree with you.

Anyway, love em or hate em, you can't deny Nirvana's impact.  Now you can attribute that to slick marketing, or appealing to dissaffected youth or great, honest, emotional song-writing.  In they end, millions of people were affected in some way or another by what they did, and there's only maybe a hundred other bands in history that you can say the same about.

most of y'all (1.00 / 4) (#161)
by elpgrrrl on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 12:52:37 AM EST

need to take a dump and get that crap out of your systems. this has got to be the lamest post i've ever read, from the top down. you've all either still have a hangover or you need to get one now. and i should be in the crapper too for writing this. but you've left me recourse but to post to this entry. so i'll just sign off and go get a big martini, extra dry.

Cats in heat (none / 0) (#164)
by generaltao on Mon Dec 06, 2004 at 12:26:37 PM EST


The end of layla sounds like cats in heat.  It's easily one of the most annoying solos ever made.

The Freebird solo gives me a headache.  Just a bunch of cheesy licks, each repeated 4-8 times and chained together without any regard for where the whole mess is going.  

Eddie Van Halen kicks ass.

Poison kicks ass.

One of my favorite solos, for technical reasons partly, but mostly for how well it captures and enhances the mood of the song, is the solo in "I remember you" by Skid Row.

And yet, the guitarist who plays it doesn't even make my top 20 list.  (Hell.. not even sure I remember his name.. Rachel or something?)


In Defense of Clapton's Layla | 181 comments (136 topical, 45 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!