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Digital vs. analog- which is better?

By mcgrew in Technology
Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 01:52:10 AM EST
Tags: Music (all tags)
Music

In the movie The Rock, the protagonist is a chemestry nerd who gleefully signs for a package as if he's a kid who's just gotten his box tops honored with a toy in the mail. He opens it- and it is an old, presumably pristine, Beatles LP.

His fellow chemist asks, "why would you pay $600.00 for that when you can get the CD for thirty?"

"Because," the nerd says, "these sound better."

But do they, really?


CDs and vinyl LPs both have their respective strengths, and their respective weaknesses, which makes comparison somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison.

To make matters worse, commercial recordings, both analog and digital, have not always been of the best quality possible for their respective formats. A good example is Aerosmith's first album. If you listen to the vinyl of this, you can hear the hiss of the original master tape.

You should not be able to hear this hiss. At the 28 inches per second transport speed of the high quality, professional recording equipment of the time, any hiss would only contain frequencies well above the range of human hearing. If your dog were an audiophile it might bother him, but human ears reach, at most, 20khz. Most ears top out at well under 18khz.

However, if you have an old tape that has been extensively reused, you can indeed get audible hiss at these speeds. Overuse of dubbing will also increase noise in an analog recording, because once the noise is there, there is no way to remove it without also removing signal.

A third posibility is that Aerosmith could have made a "demo" tape at 14 ips or even 7, which the record company could have "produced" the finished album from.

Their second album contained no such hiss. But someone who had only heard CDs before, listening to Aerosmith's first album through headpones or good speakers, might conclude that noise was a terrible problem in analog and digital is always better.

Noise is analog's biggest weakness. Its other great weakness is that when you make a copy, the copy degrades. With a digital recording, all you are copying is an incredibly large number from one computer to another. Each copy is identical to the copy it was copied from.

With analog, each copy of a recording is a completely new recording. It cannot have equal frequency response, nor can it have less noise, or a wider dynamic range.

The analog media most people are accustomed to are the vinyl LP, cassette, and there are actually a few eight tracks still around. Eight track should have been superior to cassette, as it has twice the transport speed of cassette.

But it wasn't. Play a cassette and an eight track side by side, and the cassette consistantly outperformed the eight track. Why? Because the record companies saw the eight track as for cars with their abysmal acoustics (much worse in the 70s than with modern cars), and the cassette for homes, with their superior acoustics and (at the time) superior speakers.

Home made eight tracks recorded from LPs often were superior to the factory produced cassettes. But with non-home made tapes, cassette ruled, despite what should have been its technical shortcomings.

Pink Floyd "fired" their first record label because the master to their third album sounded "muddy," presumably because the tape heads either had not been properly cleaned, were worn, or the studio's acoustics sucked. Certainly Dark Side of the Moon had none of these problems, and went on to be the best selling album of all time, still on the charts thirty years later!

Analog suffers greatly from lack of cash. With a digital recording, even the cheapest CD player sounds good if played through good speakers. Not so with analog. With analog, the more you pay for a piece of equipment, the better it will sound. A cheap Radio Shack turntable will have "rumble"- the rumbling of the platter's bearings. It won't sound clear, and likely will have the bass attenuated to minimize the rumble, and the treble attenuated because it will sound tinny without the bass. Likewise, a cheap cassette player may have a very severely limited frequency response and still have an annoyingly audible hiss.

In music, "dynamics" is the variation in sound volume. Probably the one piece of music with the most profound dynamics is the 1812 Overture, simply because it uses cannon as a musical instrument. Few stereos are powerful enough to reproduce the cannon accurately, and no recording medium yet devised has the dynamic range to do this piece justice. Not that it matters- if you fired a real cannon in your living room, you would not hear anything at all for quite some time. Certainly you would not hear another note of the performance, bacause of the ringing in your ears.

The fact is, even cassettes have a wide enough dynamic range that the entire range is seldom (if ever) used in a musical recording. CDs have a superior dynamic range than LPs, which have a better dynamic range than cassettes. Even so, many CDs that were remastered from analog media (like the aformentioned Beatles album) have even less dynamics than their original LP! A good example of this is Led Zepplin's Presence.

Why should this be? Presumably because you can always turn it up, or even buy a more powerful amplifier. Some studios use only half of the CDs dynamic range, or even less. I bought a CD of classical music that was so wimpy I decided to make a "corrected" copy, ripping to .wav and normalizing it.

It was so aliased I threw it away, and contented myself with the weak original. Until I could buy a better performance (and recording) of the piece (Swan Lake, IIRC).

Just beccause one technology is inherently superior to another in one way or another does not in fact ensure that an application of that technology is superior.

The CD's format has two distinct disadvantages to both cassette and LP, caused by the same shortcoming- its sample rate and to a lesser extent, using only two bytes of resolution per sample.

This was forced by the technology of the time when digital recording was first starting. In the late 1970s when digital recording was born, 44 k samples per second was the best the equipment of the time could do. It was deemed "good enough," since the labels "golden ears" (humans with hearing well above average) didn't hear any noise and the sound of aliasing was something they had never encountered. They knew what hiss sounded like. They knew what a "muddy" recording sounded like. They knew what harmonic distortion sounded like. They knew what clipping sounded like. But aliasing was new, and they didn't hear it- because they could not possibly listen for it, as they listened for the above mentioned distortions they knew.

At a CD's 44 ksps sample rate, the very highest frequency it can reproduce at all is 22 khz. This is well above human hearing- but here, the model fails. Because its 22 khz frequency response is not an undistorted response.

With a 28 ips analog reel to reel, you can record a dog whistle with no distortion, and transfer it to LP, also with no distortion. In fact, these two technologies had become so good, with a frequency response so high, that they introduced "quadrphonics," or four channel stereo, in the early 1970s. It was a complete flop, since a $300 stereo sounded much better than a $300 quadrophonics system. You needed four of everything for quadrophonics, as opposed to two with stereo.

So, with only two sides of a groove in a record, how did they get four channels?

In a stereo record, the up and down motions of the stylis (needle) translate into both channels of the stereo signal. This way an older, monophonic record player could still play a stereo record without losing half the signal.

The right channel comes from the side to side motions of the needle. To get the left channel, the right channel is mixed out of phase with the combined channels, cancelling itself out in that signal, which becomes the left channel.

With quadrophonics, the rear two channels were modulated with a 44khz tone and mixed with the other two signals, then demodulated at the turntable. This illustration is important to highlight the incredible frequency response of the 28 ips reel to reel and the vinyl record. These incredible frequency responses are completely undistorted. Were the supersonic carrier and the signal it carried distorted, when demodulated it would have sounded terrible. In fact, had you enough cash to afford a good quadrophonic setup, you would not have heard any difference in quality between the front channels and the rear channels.

By contrast, at high frequencies, CDs do very badly indeed. The best cassettes were capable of reaching 18khz without distortion, and even modest, affordable cassette players reached 16khz. If you had both the vinyl and the cassette (many people bought two copies of a piece, an LP for home and a cassette or 8-track for the car) you could hear the difference in the responses of cassette and vinyl. They were very striking, and it didn't take an audiophile to hear them.

By contrast, a CD doesn't even hit 15khz without horrible distortion. A little third grade math using graph paper explains why. A 15khz tone recorded on a CD has only three samples per cycle!

A sine wave curves up, then descends past the zero point, then curves back up to the zero point where it starts a new wave. A square wave goes straight up vertically, shoots horizontally, then straight down to its negative, where it repeats in reverse. A sawtooth wave goes up at a 45 degree angle, then back down at a 45 degree angle to the negative crest, then back up to the zero point.

A guitar player's "fuzz box" converts the complex sine waves coming out of his instrument into a sawtooth wave, or a square wave. Most fuzz boxes have a switch to select sawtooth or square.

At only three samples per crest, there is no difference whatever between a sine wave, a sawtooth wave, or a square wave. And a sine wave that sounds identical to a sawtoth wave is horribly distorted.

And here is where our action adventure nerd protagonist was right. A CD that was produced from an analog master will have the worst of both worlds, both analog media's more limited dynamic range and its noise, coupled by the CD's abysmal frequency response.

When CDs first came out, LPs had been mastered from digital tape for a few years. These CDs must be superior to their LP bretheren, since these LPs will have all the noise of analog, with none of LP's superior frequency response.

But remastered CDs made from an analog master is a completely different thing. Like the early digitally mastered LPs, they are the worst of both worlds.

But six hundred bucks difference??? Well, maybe if you are a chemist for the FBI, or your name is Larry Elison. Personally, the two dollar LPs I find in the used record shops are good enough for me.

As to the aformentioned Presence CD, it lacks presence. The original LP was recorded at the cutting edge, pushing the limits of the recording technology of the time - and analog recording was at its zenith. When it was remastered for CD, the highest frequency harmonics had to be attenuated to remove the aliasing. This made the bass sound too dynamic, so it was attenuated as well. And, puzzlingly, even the dynamics were reduced; I haven't a clue why.

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Poll
Which sounds better?
o LP 18%
o cassette 1%
o CD 45%
o MP3 9%
o Fischer-Price 16%
o other (write in) 8%

Votes: 61
Results | Other Polls

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o Also by mcgrew


Display: Sort:
Digital vs. analog- which is better? | 242 comments (175 topical, 67 editorial, 2 hidden)
Old Slashdot Audiophile story (none / 1) (#4)
by wiredog on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 02:16:52 PM EST

Insanely Audiophile.

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

Interesting and informative article. (2.50 / 2) (#5)
by balsamic vinigga on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 02:19:22 PM EST

Interestingly enough though, I think I like vinyl more than CD's..  or at least how they are mixed if that makes sense?  Because I can take a vinyl i ripped onto a CD and actually think it sounds more "alive" and less sterile and flat than the original CD.  I guess technically speaking I'm subjecting myself the the worse of both worlds at this point, but for me it sounds good.  Go figure.

---
Please help fund a Filipino Horror Movie. It's been in limbo since 2007 due to lack of funding. Please donate today!
Neurological aspect. (none / 1) (#6)
by Sen on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 02:20:38 PM EST

We'll be sending signals directly to our thalamus soon enough. At this level, the action potentials are digital--all or nothing.

-1, poster misunderstands Nyquist-Shannon theory (3.00 / 4) (#14)
by sonovel on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 03:16:28 PM EST

You are posting myths about sampling. You can't just use a piece of graph paper to prove it wrong are ignoring the ant-aliasing filter. The ouput of the D/A conversion also must be filtered.

How high does human hearing go? (none / 0) (#15)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 03:20:56 PM EST

I'm not bragging, but I can hear a CRT when it's powered on, even with the volume muted. I can hear it with several walls between me.

Also, and this isn't true with other laptops, but the Apple iBook, with all its guts out (HD, CD, etc), I could hear when these were powered on also, and it seemed to be a much higher pitch than a CRT (but didn't travel as well, I had to be within a few feet).

I've heard other things which I assumed were in the 16-18k range, so I always assumed these noises that I heard were higher. Of course, not that it really matters, they sound pretty awful... can't imagine making music with them.

--
Do not look directly into laser with remaining good eye.

If you listen to (3.00 / 3) (#16)
by mcc on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 03:37:58 PM EST

Sly and the Family Stone's seminal funk album "There's a Riot Going On", in any format, a very soft, distant high-pitched hissing noise can be heard throughout.

According to legend, the source of this sound is not actually from degradation of the tapes, but because after recording of the album was completed, sly hired two prostitutes and had sex with them on top of the master mix tapes, crushing them very slightly.

What charts are Pink Floyd's music on? [n/t (none / 1) (#17)
by sudog on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 03:52:39 PM EST



Analogue synthesis, Digital recording. (none / 0) (#23)
by gordonjcp on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 05:56:25 PM EST

I love tape. I edit video on 3/4" tape, because it looks good. I edit audio on 1/4" tape, because it sounds good. But ultimately, if I want the best quality recording, I record digitally.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll bore you rigid with fishing stories for the rest of your life.


+1, made me nostalgic (none / 0) (#24)
by minerboy on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 05:56:36 PM EST

For eight tracks, and albums. I remember looking for "wow and Flutter" spec on turntables, and examining the Response plots like I knew what I was talking about. It wasn't until a had a signal processing course years later that I really understood them. In particular, I remember the Johnny Winter album with three sides, to insure better fidelity (the one with Highway 61 on it).



Doesn't take reality into account (3.00 / 13) (#26)
by joto on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 06:47:10 PM EST

You are more or less comparing apples to oranges. The major reason CDs sound different (or worse) is
  1. You like the analog artifacts
  2. There is processing involved in the mastering that you may or may not agree with

You should not be able to hear this hiss. At the 28 inches per second transport speed of the high quality, professional recording equipment of the time, any hiss would only contain frequencies well above the range of human hearing. If your dog were an audiophile it might bother him, but human ears reach, at most, 20khz. Most ears top out at well under 18khz.

Yeah, well. So the producers didn't use a high-cut filter. It was simply a bad production, EQ was invented at the time.

With a digital recording, even the cheapest CD player sounds good if played through good speakers.

No, you can hear the difference between "the cheapest CD player", and a good one. This is because there are such things as filters in the DA-conversion, and an (analog) pre-amplifier. It's certainly not something only "audiophiles" can hear.

In music, "dynamics" is the variation in sound volume. Probably the one piece of music with the most profound dynamics is the 1812 Overture, simply because it uses cannon as a musical instrument. Few stereos are powerful enough to reproduce the cannon accurately, and no recording medium yet devised has the dynamic range to do this piece justice.

Actually, the CD format comes close, and the new DVD-audio standards certainly have what it takes. Most of the new digital professional studio equipment can certainly do it.

Not that it matters- if you fired a real cannon in your living room, you would not hear anything at all for quite some time. Certainly you would not hear another note of the performance, bacause of the ringing in your ears.

It's not supposed to sound like you fired a cannon in your living room. It's supposed to sound like you heard the cannon being fired in the concert hall where it was being played. Creating this sort of illusion is what recording engineers do, and it's complicated. It's not done simply by placing a stereo-mic in the middle of the concert hall.

Even so, many CDs that were remastered from analog media (like the aformentioned Beatles album) have even less dynamics than their original LP! A good example of this is Led Zepplin's Presence.

Why should this be? Presumably because you can always turn it up, or even buy a more powerful amplifier. Some studios use only half of the CDs dynamic range, or even less. I bought a CD of classical music that was so wimpy I decided to make a "corrected" copy, ripping to .wav and normalizing it.

You've got it backwards. If the sound is "louder" it's less dynamic, because there is less room for spikes in the signal. A "loud" CD-release usually means everything is compressed, a common problem with many recordings.

Why should this be? Presumably because you can always turn it up, or even buy a more powerful amplifier. Some studios use only half of the CDs dynamic range, or even less. I bought a CD of classical music that was so wimpy I decided to make a "corrected" copy, ripping to .wav and normalizing it.

It was so aliased I threw it away, and contented myself with the weak original. Until I could buy a better performance (and recording) of the piece (Swan Lake, IIRC).

Exactly, the CD was one of the few good ones. As an ignorant customer, you tried to "fix" it by normalizing it, and got aliasing, either because you chose to ignore the spikes in the signal, or because you used a shoddy normalizer. If you wanted it "louder", you should have used compression on a copy with higher bit-depth, or simply turn the volume up. The reason the record company didn't compress the master was probably because they wanted to produce a quality recording instead of simply a "loud" one.

The best cassettes were capable of reaching 18khz without distortion, and even modest, affordable cassette players reached 16khz.

Without distortion? As in making everything a smooth sine-wave? You know, that is distortion too! At 15-16kHz you can only hear a sound as a beep anyway. The highest note on the piano is about 4kHz, and even that doesn't sound too "rich". Your ear mostly care about higher frequencies as overtones.

By contrast, a CD doesn't even hit 15khz without horrible distortion. A little third grade math using graph paper explains why. A 15khz tone recorded on a CD has only three samples per cycle! [snip]

At only three samples per crest, there is no difference whatever between a sine wave, a sawtooth wave, or a square wave. And a sine wave that sounds identical to a sawtoth wave is horribly distorted.

Yeah, well, that's exactly why the filters are important in a good DA-converter. At 15kHz you can't hear the difference between a sine wave, sawtooth wave, or a square wave, and the filter should make everything smooth.

You'd have to have pretty fucking good golden ears to hear the difference between a 44.1kHz recording and a 192kHz recording, and the only reason professional studios use the latter is that they do a lot of stuff to the sound before it ends up at the customer. It's the same reason we use one or two extra digits when doing intermediate calculations. If you don't believe me, walk to a good studio, and try it yourself.

And here is where our action adventure nerd protagonist was right. A CD that was produced from an analog master will have the worst of both worlds, both analog media's more limited dynamic range and its noise, coupled by the CD's abysmal frequency response.

Your reasoning is wrong. If the CD sound worse, it's because you didn't agree with the CD mastering engineer in the choices he made in adapting the recording to the CD medium. It's not because the CD has worse frequency response, because you couldn't hear that anyway. If you were right, you wouldn't like those quadrophonic recordings on a stereo system either!

Bah, so "Radio" and sound oriented (none / 1) (#27)
by The Amazing Idiot on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 07:11:23 PM EST

Stupid eternal flamebait question..

Digital is best when you want to convey the same exact information to multiple sources.

Analog is best when you need good error correction. When you have a storm , what gets bad? Signal propigating through it, right? Sattelite under even light fog or clouds lowers a few DB from the normal, and gives the MPEG-2 nasty corruption "Seeking Signal" screen. What happens to analog TV? A bit staticy. I can still hear and see it fine.. just a bit of noise.

When it comes to analog, I can RELY on my own error correction.

Dynamics of CD vs. vinyl (3.00 / 10) (#41)
by Blarney on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 08:03:38 PM EST

I bought a CD of classical music that was so wimpy I decided to make a "corrected" copy, ripping to .wav and normalizing it.

And yet you wonder why:

Even so, many CDs that were remastered from analog media (like the aformentioned Beatles album) have even less dynamics than their original LP!

Ok. There is a tradeoff between dynamic range - the amplitude ratio between loudest and quietest sounds in a recording, basically - and having the loudest CD/LP possible. People who think that a certain CD sounds "wimpy" are, indirectly, part of the problem here. Couldn't you have turned up your stereo? But I guess your stereo doesn't have enough gain to bring the level up, or your stereo has too much hiss - in other words, the signal-to-noise ratio of your stereo is inadequate to handle the recording. Obviously it must be made louder, for you and for customers like you! Hey, just because the recording is made with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment doesn't mean it shouldn't be listened to on a $40 boombox.... or, god forbid, "computer speakers".

Classical music is the last holdout. A whole CD might be "wimpy" except for one loud passage - and that loud passage REALLY stands out. But the customer MUST have a stereo capable of handling it! Most customers don't. And if they did, they'd STILL want volume volume volume. Every other genre of music recording pushes the volume to the loudest possible limit. This involves compression - deliberate reduction of the dynamic range of the recording in order to bring the levels up closer to the 0dB maximum of the medium.

And now the mystery - why do LPs have more dynamics than CDs, when the LP medium actually has MUCH LESS (about 60 dB) signal-to-noise ratio than the CD (about 92 dB)? The answer is that, should someone take an LP master and transfer it to CD such that it's as loud as possible without clipping, it'll sound "wimpy" compared to other CDs. On an LP, there is no fixed loudest-possible signal! A mastering engineer might be able to get away with a really loud excursion on one groove, and a really loud excursion on the next groove, provided that they do not, by malign circumstance, line up enough to allow the grooves to approach too closely and the needle to jump or skip. On an LP, the occasional "red-line" signal is okay, although keeping the signal too hot continuously will render the record untrackable.

The loudest-possible LP has the occasional loud sound, a few times per revolution, but cannot be full-loud constantly. Too much compression on an LP master will result in a record that is NOT as loud as it could be.

Now, the loudest possible CD can be so heavily compressed that it's up there against the 0dB line nearly all the time. And everyone wants the loudest possible CD. Therefore, engineers will tend to use heavy compression when mastering CDs, to the point that the typical CD has much less dynamic range than the typical LP!

So the goal is the same in both cases. It's just that the loudest possible LP has some dynamics and sounds decent, whereas the loudest possible CD is basically a pulse-width modulated square wave that sounds cool at first but speedily tires out the listener.

Perhaps the new SACD format will help - its sigma-delta modulation scheme might perhaps model the dynamics limitations of the LP more closely. But perhaps not. It is too early to tell.

In the meantime, rather than being upset with "wimpy" CDs, maybe consider investing in a higher-quality stereo and lower-noise cabling.

$600 vs $30 (none / 1) (#45)
by RandomLiegh on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 08:45:46 PM EST

Ok, let me ask you folks -- is there any music which you would be willing to shell out $570 for? At all?

If so, what and why? (for me, nothing unless I won the lottery -at which point it wouldn't matter).

---
Thought of the week: There is no thought this week.
---

Hey, McGrew... (3.00 / 6) (#47)
by ktakki on Fri Oct 08, 2004 at 10:35:50 PM EST

I didn't get a chance to comment on your last article (about ripping vinyl to MP3) and I wish I had. Like that one, this one contains a few glaring inaccuracies.

First of all, the most common analog tape speeds in professional recording were 30 inches-per-second and 15 ips (not 14 and 28). Practically all analog mother tapes (the big 1" and 2" wide reels) recorded since 1975 were run at 30 ips. Practically all analog master tapes (stereo mixes on 1/2" and 1" tape) were run at 30 ips. The advantages were lower noise and better frequency response.

Second, you can remove hiss without removing signal. Professional-grade solutions like Dolby C (not the same as the Dolby A/B you'd get on your cassette player) and dbx have been available for close to 30 years. Also, using noise gates for dynamic noise reduction is pretty much standard procedure even in small demo studios.

Third, as I recall from the distant past of my teenage years, there were three competing formats for quadrophonic sound, CD-4, SQ, and discrete. CD-4 and SQ were vinyl-based, the former needing a special decoder (it was a sum-and-difference thing, not phase), the latter using Peter Schreiber's matrix research as its basis (and remaining backwards-compatible with stereo turntables).

Discrete quad used four-channel reel-to-reel recorders, arguably the purest form of quad. Incidentally, this technology indirectly spurred the DIY recording boom in the late '70s: bands found that using a 4-track Sony or Teac instead of an stereo open reel deck meant that you could do a stereo rhythm track and overdub vocals, etc, on the remaining two tracks.

Finally, on the whole analog vs. digital issue: I've worked in studios from the late '70s to the late '90s (and owned and ran my own studio for 12 years), so I straddle both eras. Early digital did sound harsher than analog, mostly because engineers trained on analog gear treated digital decks like their old equipment.

Analog tape can take a certain amount of signal overload before it distorts. Running certain tracks "in the red" is even desirable in some cases (e.g., snare, bass drum). The effect here is called "tape compression", where one hits the limit of signal the tape can hold. Digital, on the other hand, does not degrade gracefully when pushed to the limits. It produces a harsh distortion that can, in some cases, be mistaken for the aliasing one gets when one exceeds the Nyquist point.

Another feature of analog tape is "head bump", a subtle emphasis of lower midrange frequencies. This effect is part of the percieved "warmth" of analog recordings.

This is almost like that rec.audio.pro warhorse: the Tubes vs. Transistors debate. Transistor amps are more "accurate" (linear frequency response, less distortion), but tube amps are percieved as "warmer" because of the nature of their distortion (2nd vs. 3rd harmonics).

The bottom line here is that old farts like you and me, McGrew, are just nostalgic for Ye Olde Analogue Days. I grew up with tubes and vinyl, but the day I swapped my Tascam 2-track mixdown deck for a digital PCM recorder (with its 96dB dynamic range) was a happy day in my studio. The only thing I missed was the ability to physically splice tape, but a few years later a Mac Quadra 700 running Sound Designer II (and later ProTools) made me hang up my razor blades for good (except for those times when I wanted to show someone how tape loops were done old school style). Were I to build a studio today, I'd still have an analog deck or two around, just because some tracks (like overdriven guitar and snare drum) still sound better that way. But it would be synced to a digital deck that would do 95% of the work.


k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

vinyl sounds better (none / 0) (#52)
by the77x42 on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 05:44:41 AM EST

because scratching on cds really sucks.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

the old debate continues (3.00 / 2) (#53)
by pyramid termite on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 07:41:24 AM EST

the one thing that i find most annoying about analog recordings ... especially records ... is the noise ... scratches, rumbles etc. ... for loud rock and roll it's not too bad ... but any music with soft passages is just unlistenable to me ... and that's not because i've been spoiled in the cd era, i found it annoying in the mid-70s ... and i don't currently have cheap equipment

a lot of the early digital recordings were thin ... perhaps some were distorted by engineers who didn't realize that digital redlining was much uglier, but more were marred by an extremely timid approach ... in any case, there are such significant differences between the music and techniques of the analog era vs the digital era that it's not often fair to make comparisons

a lot of people make their comparisons by the remastering jobs that have been done on cd reissues ... i feel this is a bad way to do it, as i've heard superb remasters ... the beatles white album, the albums in the grateful dead box set ... and truly wretched ones ... jimi hendrix's albums until recently were reissued by putting 2nd or 3rd generation tapes onto the cd instead of the masters and it showed ... others were ruined by plopping the original mixes onto the cd without any consideration of the difference in the amps of modern equipment vs what was used at the time ... or by remixes performed by people who didn't know what they were doing or didn't understand 60s recording techniques ... a LOT of 60s top 40 reissues were ruined by this, although things have improved

it all boils down to whether the record company just wanted to put some units out there or actually make the cd sound good on modern stereos

as far as tape hiss on the masters are concerned, this is not always a result of age ... i have vinyl records where one can actually hear this ... it's not a good idea to assume that everyone in the analog era knew what they were doing because they didn't ... also, as was briefly mentioned in the article, vinyl mastering was a different art ... there were limitations on how punchy or loud certain things could be that cds don't have and sometimes this can be used to make an old mix different

one thing i have noticed is that a lot of older recordings have a better kick drum sound than today's do ... and analog equipment gives them a warmth and presence that's hard to match on cd ... but i think that might be due to miking techniques and amps, also

in short, it's a lot more complicated subject than simple analog vs digital ... there's a lot of engineers who refuse to use digital ... and a lot who won't do analog ... and they both can make good arguments ... but i think that digital wins, simply because that's the way most of the audience is going to have it ... in digital format


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.

-1, who cares (none / 1) (#55)
by MrHanky on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:01:42 AM EST

No loudspeakers can beat the accuracy of even the cheapest CD players. No loudspeakers can beat the accuracy of a good turntable*. Bad turntables are far worse than bad CD players, but bad loudspeakers may make bad turntables sound better than good CD players. Loudspeakers costing less than US$1500 a pair are always crap in one way or another. -- *Depending on how you measure 'accuracy'.


"This was great, because it was a bunch of mature players who were able to express themselves and talk politics." Lettuce B-Free, on being a total fucking moron for Ron Paul.
which is better... (none / 0) (#56)
by dimaq on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:23:22 AM EST

it's better not to spam k5 with random alt.flamewars topics

Noise in classical music (2.00 / 5) (#84)
by SoupIsGoodFood on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 03:18:02 PM EST

The most annoying aspect of listening to a lot of classical stuff isn't the noise from analog, or the lack of definition from digital, or whatever. But either the clowns in the audience or the idiots who set the whole thing up.

In quite a few recordings, I can hear the whisper, or blurb of a voice, people coughing. Then there's the creaking of chairs, rustling of papers, musicians breathing heavily out through their nose every few notes (seems to be common with the violin), etc. I'm surprised I haven't heard some farting yet.

One CD I have, you can hear what must be the pianist's tuxedo rustling about as he stretches his arms out. And you can also occasionally hear what sounds like someone clicking on a mouse repeatedly. I figure this must be the little buttons at the end of his sleeves hitting the keys.

You just don't get this kind of crap in other forms of music. And it ends up making the whole digital or analog thing meaningless in comparison.

+1 FP, Flamebait (none / 1) (#94)
by DLWormwood on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 08:30:25 PM EST

This is the most "rational" and well though out piece I've read to date over the whole analog/digital audio issue.

Sadly, at this point, rationality no longer matters. This is going to reignite a holy war here, and there nothing that can be done about it. Pity.
--
Those who complain about affect & effect on k5 should be disemvoweled

Excellent piece (3.00 / 2) (#97)
by jd on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 01:54:23 AM EST

The only criticism I'll make is that 44.1 KHz was not the best that the technology of the time could do. It was the best that cheap technology could do, so was the best that the companies could expect to have sold, but certainly much better ADCs and DACs existed.

The other problem was with the number of bits. As you correctly noted, CDs used (and still use) 16 bit technology. In 1990, 20 bit converters were regularly in use in the music industry for synthesizers and digital recordings. They were a little pricey, but they certainly existed.

When you record at 20 bits and then reduce to 16 for producing CDs, you (obviously!) eliminate some of the quality. Depending on the scheme used to do the reduction (rounding, best-fit, truncation, etc) you're going to introduce different types of distortion to the sound.

These days, 24 bit converters are increasingly common in the home and 26 bit converters are used in "professional" systems. At this level of precision, the distortion should really not be audible at all. That would be fine, except that CDs still use that old 16 bit format. By now, with multi-layering on digital media, it should be very easy to have "high quality" CDs which have the extra resolution, but which would still play perfectly well on non-layered low-res equiptment.

For vinyl, this happened multiple times. You had "low fidelity" and "high fidelity" recordings, for example. There were 78s, 45s and 33.5s. Recordings were mono or stereo. Different types of needle produced different levels of response. There were many, many generations of improvements and refinements.

With digital media, this hasn't happened. The emphasis on getting more and more onto a disc has subsumed the need for higher and higher quality, to the point where music DVDs exist but fail to offer the kind of improvement that the technological shift would imply that they should.

These days, your home computer is probably capable of playing 192 KHz at 24 bits resolution. The quality should be vastly superior to live performances of even five or six years ago. It hasn't happened. Partly through inertia (most consumers don't change their CD player often enough to make the format upgrades profitable) and partly through the fact that quality doesn't sell the way it used to.

The key argument of this article (none / 1) (#103)
by levsen on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 09:03:30 AM EST

seems to me that "analog is better than digital because high frequency signals are distorted".

Now, I thought the way the human ear works, is that the incoming signal is decomposed into sine waves because each of the sensitive hairs in the cochlea is resonates with one particular sine frequency.

Now, a triangular or whatever non-sine signal of, say, 18kHz would be "decomposed" into an 18kHz sine signal and several sine signals of higher frequencies to which the ear does not respond. In other words, if you send an 18kHz triangular signal into the ear, what we will hear is an 18kHz sine.

For that reason it should not matter that the triangular signal is "deformed" into a sine, square or whatever the CD player does, all we hear is a sine.

Something I'm not getting here?

This comment is printed on 100% recycled electrons.

idiot (2.25 / 4) (#129)
by trhurler on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 04:21:48 PM EST

Obviously you don't understand what "Nyquist frequency" means. You also don't understand the actual processing a CD player does before sending out a signal, OR the effects of frequency on human hearing.

First of all, with a 44Khz stream, you can accurately and COMPLETELY reconstruct any signal at 22Khz or less. I realize you don't understand how, and I don't care about that; people a whole lot smarter than you(one of them named Nyquist, if you can believe that,) figured it out, and they're right.

Second, as human hearing reaches its upper frequency limits, ability to distinguish frequency goes up, but ability to distinguish tonal differences goes to absolute shit. To most people, ANY instrument in the range of a piccolo sounds very much like a piccolo, but nobody would say this of a tuba. The result is that even if you were right about CD reproduction of high frequencies(and I stress that you are not,) it would not matter NEARLY as much as you claim.

Third, aliasing has been well understood since the earliest days of digital signal processing. The idea that 44Khz was chosen because they were too stupid to know any better by the LATE SEVENTIES is completely ridiculous.

A CD player is always going to put out a mixture of sine waves. There will never be anything else in it. Further, although a buzz box does indeed use square and sawtooth transforms, the signal reaching the speakers is entirely sine waves again. Why? Because if it weren't, it'd destroy any post-box linear amp AND the speakers in short order. The distortion you hear is from the loss involved in converting the waveform, sure, but it gets converted into a (new) sine representation nevertheless. A CD player does the same thing.

I could go on all day about inaccuracies in your claims, but the most important one is this: CDs DO NOT HAVE a frequency response problem with respect to normal human hearing. Period. Your lack of understanding of the mathematics of signal processing notwithstanding, this fact is irrefutable.

It is true that most recordings are of abysmal quality. This, however, is nothing new. In the 70s, most recordings were of abysmal quality, and there weren't even any CDs then, so you can hardly blame CDs for that.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Worst evar CD version (2.66 / 3) (#132)
by GenerationY on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 05:03:30 PM EST

The Best Of Free (1991), remixed by Bob Clearmountain! WTF!? Years later and I'm still angry at being burned on this. You can barely hear Paul Kossov...whats the point? A shining example of how to take a great body of work and utterly nerf it. Free's whole aesthetic was that they were a traditional balls-to-the-wall four piece playing straight with no messing about (guitar and bass straight into the amps, drummer has the smallest kit you've ever seen...something special in the overblown 'gongs and all' 70s). They sound like U2 or something on this disc, steer well clear.

Sometimes AAD is not the worst of all possible world, ADD is.

Errr... (3.00 / 2) (#146)
by Pseudonym on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 08:59:35 PM EST

In video processing (which I'm more familiar with), 16 bits per channel is plenty. Indeed, for film, you can get away with 10 bits per channel... in logarithmic space. Log space, as we know, optimises use of the dynamic range for most (all?) kinds of human perception.

One of the problems that I've noticed with CDs is that very quiet sounds are clipped, presumably due to insufficient resolution (I'm thinking especially of King Crimson albums). My question to the audio nuts is: is 16 bits per channel enough if you assume that the samples are in log space?


sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Couple of Links (none / 0) (#156)
by brain in a jar on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 04:00:19 AM EST

This site shows a couple of examples of distortion due to insufficiently high sampling rate. It shows aliasing distortion (signal frequencies above the nyquist frequency being falsely represented as lower frequency signals), and what it refers to as "beat wave" distortion. As far as I can see this occurs at frequencies close to but not exceeding the nyquist frequency. It takes the form of a distored signal which has the correct frequency but has an amplitude that varies periodically. They show an example of this at a signal to sampling rate ratio fsig/fsamp of 2.1 i.e. at the equivalent of 21khz for cd sampling, so even this is probably more of a problem for dogs, though if this signal then interfered with something in the audible range, maybe this is still a problem.

All this said, it still looks like cutting all frequencies above 20Khz should leave you with a good recording, but hey, I'm no expert.

Also, on DACs this is an explanation of how a 1-bit DAC works. I found it pretty interesting, as until you have it explained it sounds like a pretty odd concept.

For me, I think that there are good and bad recordings, and that good recordings can occur on both CD and Vinyl. I'm not a mad audiophile, but I play all my music through a respectable Rotel separates system, with infinity speakers. Recordings I've been impressed with lately include the recent Jhonny cash "American" series of CDs, the more recent Manic street preachers stuff, and on Vinyl "Hail to the Thief" by Radiohead.

A record with fairly poor recording (that I still like a lot is the first album by Ash, they had no money when they made it, and it shows, but it also shows that they had fun making it.

Here endeth my 2c.


Life is too important, to be taken entirely seriously.

Your argument is flawed (none / 1) (#161)
by maroberts on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 08:49:38 AM EST

A square or sawtooth 20khz wave is not a pure 20kHz signal; it's basically a 20KHz sine signal with highr frequency components to convert it into the square/sawtooth wave you know and love. Just put a square or sawtooth wave into a spectrum analyser if you don't believe me.

When they say the limit of human hearing is 20KHz, they mean a 20KHz sine wave; a human cannot detect any higher frequency components of a square/sawtooth signal.
~~~
The greatest trick the Devil pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist -- Verbil Kint, The Usual Suspects

# of bits vs sample rate (none / 0) (#162)
by mcgrew on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 08:50:42 AM EST

There is a discussion or two here about whether 16 bits is sufficient or not. For most contemporary music with its lack of dynamics, 16 bits is plenty. However, if you listen to classical, with its loud parts and very quiet passages, more bits per sample would be a benefit.

However, I think a higher sampling rate is necessary. All tones audible to the human ear should be accurately reproduced. We're not just concerned with pure tones here- pure tones are a rarity in music. The harmonics matter. Middle C may only be 440 hz, but that single 440 hz piano note has harmonics that stretch well beyond your hearing range.

To me, the question isn't whether it sounds good. The question is whether it sounds real. When I hear your recording of an acoustic guitar, if I close my eyes I should not be able to tell whether you are playing a recording or a real guitar.

I have heard a (very) few vinyl LPs this good (e.g. Van Halen 1), but never a CD that I would confuse with a live performance. I believe it's CD's lack of undistorted frequency response.

Now that we have higher storage spaces, I'd like to see the standard sample rate raised to 440k rather than 44k. That would give you thirty samples for a single cycle of a 15khz tone, which should sound sweet.

"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie

Must all such articles be written by art majors ? (1.00 / 3) (#163)
by chbm on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 08:57:29 AM EST

> This was forced by the technology of the time when digital recording was first starting. In the late 1970s when digital recording was born, 44 k samples per second was the best the equipment of the time could do.

No. This is false.

> It was deemed "good enough," since the labels "golden ears" (humans with hearing well above average) didn't hear any noise and the sound of aliasing was something they had never encountered.

This is wrong again. You said it yourself, most people can only hear up to 18kHz. After you determine that the 44.1kHz sample rate comes pretty straightforward, give or take a few Hz for fun margin.

> At a CD's 44 ksps sample rate, the very highest frequency it can reproduce at all is 22 khz. This is well above human hearing- but here, the model fails. Because its 22 khz frequency response is not an undistorted response.

First, "ksps" doesn't exist, Second "khz" doesn't exist either. After, when people say 18kHz (19 actually) is all you can hear it really is all you can hear. Finito, kaput, no frequencies above that. No higher time resolution. 19kHz is all you got, if you're hearing a 19kHz square wave you actually hear a *badly* distorted square wave and in fact you can't tell it apart from a 18kHz sin or saw wave. In fact, above 16kHz or so everything sounds about the same to most people and you can't actually tell apart the pitch, only the volume, but since the perceived volume depends on the pitch it's really easy to get you fooled.

> By contrast, a CD doesn't even hit 15khz without horrible distortion. A little third grade math using graph paper explains why.

If all you reached is third grade this might impress you.

> A 15khz tone recorded on a CD has only three samples per cycle!

This sentence makes no sense.

> A sawtooth wave goes up at a 45 degree angle, then back down at a 45 degree angle to the negative crest, then back up to the zero point.

No, that's a triangular wave. A saw wave looks like a wood saw.

> A guitar player's "fuzz box" converts the complex sine waves coming out of his instrument

Actually, a guitar output is quite simple, not complex at all. You just made that up to make the sentence look more impressive.

> At only three samples per crest, there is no difference whatever between a sine wave, a sawtooth wave, or a square wave. And a sine wave that sounds identical to a sawtoth wave is horribly distorted.

I've explained why you're wrong. Now I'll change the way you look at your turntable: you never actually hear a square wave, a pure square wave doesn't exist for you. The pre and post masquing efects of the hear totally destroy the wave form even if it's quite inside the earing range.

> Like the early digitally mastered LPs, they are the worst of both worlds.

Are you insane ? You actually believe digital studio equipment are CD quality ?

I'll won't talk about dinamic range as that depends greatly on the stuff used to create the analogue media. I'll point you don't have any numbers for analogue media dinamic range, maybe because most analogue media dinamic range is actually crap, and not highend audio kit isn't much better.

-- if you don't agree reply don't moderate --

analog vs digital (none / 0) (#166)
by pelliott on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 09:38:36 AM EST

Of course the practice of compressing sound to make it sound loader is excretable. That is what volume controls are for. However this is not really a criticism of digital, it is a criticism of modern editing practices! You can not run a direct double blind test of analog vs digital because analog introduces changes of its own. Rumble, tape hiss, and less dynamic range. People who have grown accustomed to analog may grow to LIKE these changes! Yet there are people who insist that digital introduces subtile negative changes and there are people who debunk this claim. I believe the solution would be double blind test of analog vs a properly done digital recording of the same analog signal. That is, compare the sound of your vinyl record vs a digital recording OF THE SAME VINYL RECORD. In this way, the effects of the analog will appear in both signals equally and the differences should be solely due to digital. The volume should be carefully made equal. If the audiophile can not tell the difference then the debunkers are right! If the audiophiles can tell the difference then maybe the audiophiles are right!
---- There is no Religion Higher than Truth.
Regarding the whole sample bits/sample rate bit. (none / 0) (#167)
by Silh on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 09:57:12 AM EST

I don't remember where I was reading this, but given the choice of of changing any of the two, you would taker the higher sample rate. I vaguely remember reading a comment that given a high enough sample rate and some good dithering, you could reproduce the original signal with just a single bit. Think about the process old games used to send digital audio to the 1-bit PC speaker, though the sampling rate you could use there was quite limited (as was the dynamic range of a typical PC piezoelectric beeper).

Is 16 bits enough? It probably can be for most people's listening purposes, if the recording and mastering is well done and dithered down to the final 16 bits product. Whether all final recordings are done this way is, of course, another question...

(Obviously when recording/mixing you're going to want the highest bit and sampling rates that you can, since you don't want to dither until the final mixdown, and you only dither downwards anyhow.)


The 1812 overture (3.00 / 6) (#173)
by ghjm on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 12:15:34 PM EST

When performed with cannon, one would not usually expect the cannon to be located in the orchestra pit. It would be offstage but nearby. For example, were you to stage a performance (with cannon) in the Citadel, you would seat the audience in the rotunda and fire the cannon from the palisades. (Timing is everything, as you want the crash of the cannon to arrive at the rotunda in time with the music, which means firing the cannon several seconds before the fusiliers hear the "right" spot in the music.)

As a result, it is inaccurate to compare the dynamic range of the 1812 overture to firing a cannon in your living room, with the ringing ears and deafness that would result. Even if your sound reinforcement gear could handle the dynamic range, you would not be reproducing any sort of accurate performance.

-Graham

Quantization Noise (none / 1) (#179)
by frankwork on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 01:27:26 PM EST

The only really technically solid argument I've heard for analog being a more faithful reproduction (in an audible way) is quantization noise in passages with a large dynamic range.

CD audio is a 16-bit linear representation of the audio signal. But human ears (and hence the things they tend to like to listen to) are logarithmic. That is, it takes something like a tenfold louder sound (in terms of signal amplitude) to be perceived as twice as loud.

So while you have the full 16 bits of resolution for a loud passage, you might only have 4 or 5 bits to work with during the quiet passages. Dithering can minimize this to some degree, but it's likely still audible to someone who knows what to listen for.

On Nyquist and hearing limits (none / 1) (#181)
by gidds on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 04:13:56 PM EST

Okay, so everyone's posting all the same stuff as always... Boiling down to 'analogue can store much higher frequencies' vs 'CD can store everything you can hear'.

But there's one point I haven't seen anyone post yet, and I think it's relevant. (I'm no sound engineer, just a reasonably-well-informed muso. With A-Level Physics, if that matters. But I read about this on a web site that seemed to know what it was talking about, and it makes sense to me.)

It's true that CDs can't store frequencies above 22.1kHz, but that shouldn't be a problem. The problem is that eliminating all frequencies above that also affects lower frequencies too. You need to make sure that your signal has absolutely nothing above that cut-off point, otherwise digitising it will result in aliasing. But there's no filter which can do that and not affect the rest as well. A sharp, 'brick-wall' filter will change the phase of lower frequencies; a gentler filter must roll off lots of the lower frequencies too. Maybe it's these effects that people don't like in CD sound?

A related point is that sound travels about 7mm in the time between CD samples. So the 'spatial resolution' is quite coarse. This relates to the loss of phase information at frequencies approaching the cut-off. Maybe this produces audible artefacts too?

As I said, I'm no expert, so I don't know how large these effects may be in practice. But they're worth considering.

Andy/

LP's --> CD -->SA-CD forgot about that? (none / 0) (#184)
by smurf975 on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 05:32:48 PM EST

I agree with many of the article submitters comments.

But being of the CD age, I never really saw and LP in my life time it was all cassetes and CD's for me and now MP3's, I'm not sure if I'm the best source to agree.

But what the author says about CD's vs LP's makes me think about MP3's vs CD's. Sciencetists say that you shouldn't hear a difference between a 128k MP3 (today depending on the format 96k,64k) and a CD. Well I do. Even if I rip my CD's at 320K I hear the difference. Please keep in mind I'm using pretty good headphones to establish this. As I agree that on a $5 headphone you will hear no difference.

I have no word for the difference that I hear between a quality mp3 and a CD. Personally I call the difference boombastic. As thats the only word that comes to mind to me. So MP3's miss the boombastic sounds of an CD.

I'll bet that it will be worse I have had LP's and a class A amplifier.
---

But to be honest, the author seems to have forgotten the new and upcoming cd format SA-CD. Super Audio CD, that samples music at 96Khz. Isn't that a good in between?

Read about SA-CD here:http://www.timefordvd.com/tutorial/SACDOverview.shtml

Yes! "The Dark Side" LP sounded better (none / 1) (#186)
by BaldBass on Mon Oct 11, 2004 at 07:05:35 PM EST

...because it was 30 years ago and I was 30 years yonger...

The rest is mostly crap.

analog is dead (3.00 / 2) (#196)
by florin on Tue Oct 12, 2004 at 12:38:47 PM EST

...and what you witness nowadays are the last spasms of the beheaded body.

There might be some discussions about "analog vs digital" if by "digital" you mean "audio CD", which is sampled at 44.1kHz and has 16bit depth, which is typically known as the 44/16 format.
There can be no discussion if by "digital" you mean the upcoming standards such as SACD (Super Audio CD) or DVD-A (DVD Audio), etc. which are generally sampled at 96kHz and have 24bit depth. 96/24 is essentially the quality of many studio master records nowadays (some studios are migrating to 192kHz). There can be no perceivable distortion, artifacts or quality loss (not by the human ear anyway) at 96/24.
Once the new digital standards will take over, there will be no rational way to argue in favour of analog.

Even currently, when "digital" means 44/16, even if the 44/16 format might have, under certain conditions, some distortions perceivable by the human ear, i still think digital is better than analog, i still think the best analog records are not as good as digital.
What happens is that the current analog fans have their ears trained to forgive the analog artifacts, because that's what they used for years. Their brains are simply biased towards the "analog sound".
44/16 may have some artifacts perceivable by experts, but unfortunately even the best analog records modify the sound a lot more. Vinyl has a lot more distortion than pretty much any other media, and tape is not too linear either. 44/16 may distort very high frequencies, but analog distorts everything. 44/16 may have a "stepping effect" that experts may perceive (because, as some argue, only 16 bits are not enough for smooth reproduction) but vinyl transforms all dust bits into pops and clicks perceivable by everyone but the deaf.

In any case, analog is dead. It's clunky, it decays in time, it loses quality at every processing step, it's fragile, it's big, non-portable, etc.
The current digital standards may have their own shortcomings, but for "fresh ears", not biased by decades of listening to hissy and poppy vinyl, it sounds at least as good if not better than analog. The emerging digital standars are even better.

Answer: it's subjective (none / 1) (#197)
by nicka on Tue Oct 12, 2004 at 01:27:04 PM EST

Comparing the technologies alone tell me that CD is inferior to vinyl but that's not enough. You really need to hear it for yourself to be able to answer the question; if you don't have access to a decent CD player and turntable and a decent preamp, amp and speakers you're not really in a position to know one way or the other. Put it this way: spend $700 on a CD player (say the Arcam CD73) and compare it to a $700 turntable (say the Music Hall MMF-5) -- both are considered really good value. With the turntable properly set up and the records cleaned you *should* get a lot more enjoyment out of the turntable -- you will be able to hear more depth, better timing, cleaner highs, probably better bass and more sense of realism in the music. You won't hear hiss if the records are clean. In all, more enjoyment. It's the musical enjoyment that matters and to your ears *only*. If you prefer the CD, that's fine too. One thing to note: CDs and CD players are very convenient, records and turntables a lot less so. They are hard to set up, require maintenance, love and care to keep them sounding good. But all that's part of the fun if you love music and love hearing it reproduced well. One thing that bugs me: people are perfectly willing to spend multiple thousands of dollars on plasma screens but not on the audio in a home theatre system. Ask anyone: audio is way more significant in the overall enjoyment of a home movie.

SACD, DVD-A, any studio-grade 96/24 digital record (none / 0) (#201)
by florin on Tue Oct 12, 2004 at 11:30:35 PM EST

96kHz 24bit digital is beyond the physical limits imposed to the human ear. Nyquist limits are not a problem (they are in the case of 44kHz 16bit audio which is the typical audio CD).

And i'm not talking about 192kHz 24bit digital yet. ;-)

good (none / 1) (#231)
by fxsw on Fri Oct 15, 2004 at 03:34:14 PM EST

Laptop in back panier connects via serial port to a GPS unit mounted on handlebar. A Lucent range extender gaffer taped to backrack leads back to wireless card in laptop. Headphones lead out of laptop to head!
ÏÂÔØ blog cnebook
A bit too pro-analog. (1.75 / 4) (#234)
by mindstrm on Sat Oct 16, 2004 at 01:23:41 PM EST

This is one of the better writeups I've read on the issue.. however, in the digital area there are some big inaccuracies.

- Nyquist limit applies to sine waves. You can produce a perfect 22Khz sine wave with a 44Khz sample.   You do not "lose" resolution as you approach the nyquist limit.  To put it another way, a 44Khz "square" wave is a whole bunch of sine waves added and subtracted, many out of your hearing range.

- Aliasing... this only happens in bad recordings, and is analogous to "tape hiss".  IF you record properly, it's not an issue.

- A much larger factor in most modern recordings in ANY ofrmat is simply the quality of the recording.  On most people's equipment, even on rather good home equipment, a well mastered CD and  well mastered analog sound indistinguishable.

Can you "hear" above 20kHz (none / 0) (#239)
by salmon or trout on Thu Nov 11, 2004 at 12:34:25 PM EST

The original experiments that limit what the ear
can distinguish were done by putting head phones on people and playing tones at various frequencies at them.

No-one could hear abouve about 20kHz so that was the end of that.

The problems with this experiment are many.
Firstly the ear ain't linear. It's more sensitive to certain areas than others. The bit resolution the ear can hear changes depedening on frequency.

Then there is the small matter of beat frequencies. Play several different sine waves and they interact at frequencies the ear can here.

Next you don't just use your ears to hear. The sensation of hearing comes from different parts of the body including resonants in the chest cavity and hairs on your body.

The distortion figures for CD are always at maximum ouput. This is where CD excels and LP is poor. Back at more realistic levels and quiet passages LP has better figures than CD. Once you get down to low levels it's only using a single bit to represent the wave and you end up with a square wave. Not so good.

Now 24 bit DVD has a better chance here since nothing can actually record to that level of resolution. The final 3 bits or so become useful random dither.

As others have pointed out, a perfect brick wall filter doesn't exist. You get filter ripple so if you can push the filter upto 90KHz plus then you've got a good chance of leaving the signal in a better state for the frequencies you actually care about. We also ignore the affects of the filter on the time domain using this argument.

Digital jitter is harsh on ears compared to LP surface noise. We are used to hearing things through background noise but we are not used to bits being placed in the wrong order. It's a very odd form of distortion that can lead to fatigue.  

In the end we have to digitize stuff in order to keep it forever. With the appropriate error correction and checksums digital music can be copied forever whereas an analogue copy will never be as good as the original.

CD sucks, I just hope the industry can settle on SACD or DVD-audio.

I will admit that I love the euphonic sound of vinyl.

analog is better than digital, but it depends! (none / 0) (#242)
by soundproofing on Fri Jan 28, 2005 at 03:36:30 PM EST

there are so many variables involved good analog is better than poor digital. a really good 1/2 tape recorder should beat a audio CD recorder an LP from the 1970's will beat an LP from the 60's which will beat a 33 or a 78 which will beat an edison wax cylinder..... mp3 is lossy poor to O.K. minidisk ATRAC is lossy but O.K. a CD is reasonable DVDA is better SACD is better still Price wise digital will beat analog for equivalent quality. but analog recording technology is not being developed so much as digital so digital is now ahead and will probably remain so.
soundproofing, noise control, vibration damping, and acoustics consultant and engineer. http://soundproof.mine.nu/
Digital vs. analog- which is better? | 242 comments (175 topical, 67 editorial, 2 hidden)
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