Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
A defense of Michael Moore and "Bowling for Columbine"

By Eloquence in Op-Ed
Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 09:00:09 AM EST
Tags: Movies (all tags)
Movies

This is an open letter to David Hardy, author of Bowling for Columbine: Documentary or Fiction?, probably the most comprehensive among many rebuttals of the Oscar-winning documentary. Critics have now gone so far as to call for the revocation of the award. Their chances are small, however, as their arguments rely on polemic, exaggeration and misrepresentation -- in other words, on the same techniques which they accuse Moore of using.

Dear David Hardy,

It is fascinating to watch the organized character assassination of Michael Moore that has been going on in the United States since the release of his last documentary. In a time of simple-minded patriotism, loud, clear and dissenting voices like Mr. Moore's are perceived as disturbing and have to be silenced, partially through well funded public relations campaigns, partially through conservative "grass-roots" propaganda. Not surprisingly, much of the criticism of Moore's film is misguided or outright wrong, often vastly more inaccurate than Moore's work itself.


Moore portrays the NRA as an unethical, dishonest organization; he sees the paranoia and fear in the United States as a primary cause of violence, and he does not see gun ownership itself as a problem. His documentary is full of subtle humor, jaw-dropping dialogue and dark contrasts. All in all, it is an accurate portrayal of America's gun and violence culture. It also raises questions about America's foreign policy of recent decades, questions which have been all but ignored by Moore's critics.

On your webpage, you state that "Moore's resolution is questionable. After all, early in the movie he discards the possibility that playing violent video games and watching violent flicks can cause violence -- because Canadians like, and Japanese positively love, those. If violent movies and violent videogames cannot cause violence -- then how can newscasts about violence do so?"

This is a faulty generalization. If, as Moore implies (although never states as fact), video games and violent movies are relatively harmless, it does not logically follow that all types of media presentation are harmless. There is a huge difference, for example, between playing a game like "Quake" and listening to a radio broadcast that tells you that your family will be killed unless you take action to kill others now. The latter is the kind of media propaganda that was used to unleash a genocide in Rwanda in 1994, which killed 800,000 people. Similarly, the main motivation for the crusades (beyond the promise of wealth) was that Christians were supposedly being slaughtered and had to be saved.

Obviously, media propaganda can incite people to kill. Interactive fiction like video games, on the other hand, presents violence in a narrative context, which may very well desensitize participants to said violence, but no causative link has ever been proven. Moore's hypothesis (which apparently comes at least in part from the book "Culture of Fear" by Barry Glassner, also advertised on Moore's website) is that the constant bombardment with messages of fear can incite paranoia, which itself can lead to violent acts. This is consistent with the kind of media-incited violence described above, and in no relationship whatsoever to the theory of video game or music incited violence. It is no surprise, however, that US (and European) media do not question their own propaganda of fear.

Moore's second hypothesis is that America's foreign policy may contribute to the belief that violence is an appropriate means to solve conflicts, a hypothesis which is shared by many sociologists and psychologists. Children who grow up in war-torn regions are known for having similar views -- war is perceived as a normal part of existence, violence as a natural way to solve disputes. In a weaker sense, the same message is projected to American children, who grow up being told that it is not acceptable to be violent to one another, but who simultaneously have to endure corporal punishment and media messages about how "the enemies of freedom" are punished. Moore's film was made before the dead bodies of Qusay and Uday Hussein were paraded on national TV. Americans were gloating over this demented corpse show:

"They squealed like little piggies too, so you'll have to make do with 'oink, oink, squeeeeeeeallll' for their last words. That goes for your grandson Mustafa too, by the way. Still think fucking with the U.S. was a good idea, Sammy?"

Mustafa was 14 years when he was killed. Americans cheer the killing of children, yet wonder why their own children grow up to be more violent than those in other nations. It is paradoxical notions like this one which Moore's film seeks to address.

Inaccuracies

Your webpage list a number of alleged inaccuracies in Moore's movies. It is true that Moore's film is sometimes unintentionally deceptive, but to call it fraudulent is hyperbole to the extreme. It is no more so than any other successful documentary of the last decades. Let's look at some specific criticisms:

1) The bank scene, listed on your website on a separate page. Critics have stated that this scene was "staged", but in the bank interview, the official tells Moore that the bank has its own vault storing about 500 weapons at any given time. It is also a licensed firearms dealer which can perform its own background checks. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, linked from your site, an employee claims that the gun would have been "normally" picked up at another dealer. It is not explained what "normally" is supposed to mean, but that claim flatly contradicts the statement of the bank official in the film. This sounds more like a later correction for public relations purposes, but of course nobody questions the bank claims when they can be used against Moore.

The only thing that Moore compressed is the timeframe. According to the same WSJ interview, "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period." This is plausible -- but entirely irrelevant for the movie, which already makes it quite clear that a background check is being performed. Moore's detractors have sometimes extended those 7-10 days to several weeks, contradicting the bank's own estimate.

There is nothing inaccurate whatsoever about the bank scene. The bank does exactly what it advertises: It hands out guns from its vault to those who open an account. The silly criticisms of the scene obscure the real obscenity of the situation: a bank handing out guns to its customers, higlighting the utter laxness of how Americans deal with deadly weapons and a love of firearms that borders on the religious.

2) The Lockheed-Martin interview. This is perhaps the criticism repeated the most often, and it also the most inaccurate. First, the actual quotes from the film are often reproduced incorrectly. The dialogue goes as follows:

Moore: "So you don't think our kids say to themselves, gee, dad goes off to the factory every day - he builds missiles. These are weapons of mass destruction. What's the difference between that mass destruction and the mass destruction over at Columbine High School?"

McCollum (PR person): "I guess I don't see that specific connection because the missiles that you're talking about were built and designed to defend us from somebody else who would be aggressors against us."

First, note the word "our" in Moore's question. Moore is not from Colorado -- his question is generic, not meant to refer specifically to the Lockheed Martin plant in question. McCollum understands it this way -- otherwise he would protest against the plant being mischaracterized. However, critics of Moore have cleverly ignored McCollum's response and presented Moore as spreading lies about the Lockheed plant.

Even Lockheed did not believe the public to be that gullible. In response to one Moore detractor, McCollum wrote: "Although other units of Lockheed Martin Corporation elsewhere in the country produce weapons to support the defense of the U.S., we make no weapons at the Littleton-area facility Moore visited." Of course, critics have conveniently ignored the fact that Lockheed Martin does supply weapons of mass destruction to the US military, and that the company is the nation's largest military contractor. As Moore correctly points out, it is bizarre for a society to openly embrace the production of destructive weapons, but on the other hand see no connection of this to everyday violence -- children learn by imitating adults.

Yes, Moore makes this point through slight exaggeration by moving with the camera through the LM plant -- but he makes no incorrect statement. It is typical for his critics to jump on what is at most a slightly misleading implication, but in doing so, they themselves have, unlike Moore, made many incorrect claims.

3) Denver NRA meeting. Critics like yourself claim that Moore has massively distorted evidence to support his point that Charlton Heston has effectively insulted the victims of the Columbine tragedy by holding a rally in Denver shortly afterwards.

First, the "from my cold, dead hands" part: This is used by Moore as a visual citation to introduce Heston. It is perhaps one of his most famous quotes, shown on national TV even here in Germany. It tells viewers: Aha, this is the person we are talking about. Nowhere does Moore say or imply that these words were uttered at the rally in Denver, and in fact, their reptition later in the movie at another occasion (oddly claimed by critics to be again "misattributed") is simply a reminder of this. It is Moore's way to say: Viewers, meet Charlton Heston, gun nut extraordinaire.

The "visual of a billboard and a narration" is viewed by you as evidence that Moore is trying to somehow tie the two events together, when in reality, it is quite obvious that he does it to separate the introduction of Heston from his speech in Denver. Moore is a professional filmmaker -- he concentrates on maximum impact of each of the statements he cites, and to accomplish that effect, uses subtle interludes instead of long-winded introductions. This is a common technique, but because conservative readers are not familiar with the basics of filmmaking, they believe critics who claim that he is "distorting" the interview. What he does is standard filmmaking practice.

The same goes for the interview which follows. Moore's critics would expect us to have him quote Heston in his entirety, have him present fully the PR that the NRA has used to justify its rally in Denver for reasons of "balance". The NRA was fully aware of the scandal it would cause through its rally and decided to push on because they believed to have enough media support to successfully do so. They were right. You claim that there was "no way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members." 10 days are more than enough to give advance warning of a change in location or date, had the NRA really wanted to. It is probably correct that their primary reason for not doing so was to save money, not to piss off the victims of Colubmine. That does not change the fact that they did just that. Moore presents the most important part of the speech to back up this point and ignores the fluff. This is what good documentary filmmaking is about. And here the critics again ignore important evidence:

When Heston mentions the mayor of Denver, the crowd boos loudly. Heston maganimously holds up a hand to read the mayor's letter (only to explain in detail why he chose to ignore the request -- not mentioning at all the reasons you have given!). This booing by the crowd, not mentioned with a single word in your transcript or your article, shows that the crowd was fully aware of the controversy they would cause by coming to Littleton after children were being killed there -- and they effectively said "Fuck you". To say that they could not have done otherwise is a bold lie by Moore's critics.

4) The Kayla Rolland case. Again, critics like yourself charge Moore with deception. The rally took place on October 17, the shooting on February 29. Again, standard filmmaking techniques are interpreted as smooth distortion: "Moore works by depriving you of context and guiding your mind to fill the vacuum -- with completely false ideas. It is brilliantly, if unethically, done." As noted above, the "from my cold dead hands" part is simply Moore's way to introduce Heston. Did anyone but Moore's critics view it as anything else? He certainly does not "attribute it to a speech where it was not uttered" and, as noted above, doing so twice would make no sense whatsoever if Moore was the mastermind deceiver that his critics claim he is.

Concerning the Georgetown Hoya interview where Heston was asked about Rolland, you write: "There is no indication that [Heston] recognized Kayla Rolland's case." This is naive to the extreme -- Heston would not be president of the NRA if he was not kept up to date on the most prominent cases of gun violence. Even if he did not respond to that part of the interview, he certainly knew about the case at that point.

Regarding the NRA website excerpt about the case and the highlighting of the phrase "48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead": This is one valid criticism, but far from the deliberate distortion you make it out to be; rather, it is an example for how the facts can sometimes be easy to miss with Moore's fast pace editing. The reason the sentence is highlighted is not to deceive the viewer into believing that Heston hurried to Flint to immediately hold a rally there (as will become quite obvious), but simply to highlight the first mention of the name "Kayla Rolland" in the text, which is in this paragraph.

Unfortunately, because the zooming is rather fast, it is easy to miss the rest of the sentence, so as you correctly note, some viewers got an incorrect impression. It would have been fair for Moore to point out this possible misinterpretation on his website. However, the claim of deliberate distortion is ludicrous for several reasons:

a) Moore clearly states that "before he came to Flint", Heston gave an interview. In the excerpt from said interview, we can see that it is from March. If Moore wanted to deceive his viewers, why would he say this, and show the month the interview was published?

b) Why should Moore leave the words "Clinton is on the Today Show" visible in the text, which is necessary to correctly interpret the highlighted part? I reviewed the sequence several times and it is perfectly possible to see this text without pausing.

c) Both the "soccer mom" interview and the sequences showing the NRA rally make no effort to distort the fact that this rally happened months after the fact. The camera lingers on Bush/Cheney posters, and the protestor is quoted as saying that "we wanted to let the NRA know that we haven't forgotten about Kayla Rolland". You make the hysterical claim that the interview "may be faked" (on the basis that no name is shown for the interviewee), but if Moore had faked it, why the hell should he put this sentence in the protestor's mouth, which directly contradicts the conclusion that the rally happened hours after Kayla's death? Why did Moore, the masterful deveiver, not edit this sequence out? This makes no sense.

Opinions may vary on how tasteless it was for Heston to hold a pro gun rally on the location of the nation's youngest school shooting months after the fact, but this sequence of "Bowling" is without doubt the most unfair to Heston. The claims of deliberate distortion don't hold up when viewing the whole scene, though -- as "Hanlon's Razor" states, one should never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. The somewhat inept editing of the NRA press release has led some viewers to wrong conclusions, which is unfortunate, but Moore's critics have no interest in viewing the matter fairly. Had they done so, Moore himself would probably have apologized for the gaffe. In any case, at no point does Moore make a false statement, in contradiction to claims by critics that his documentary is "full of lies".

5) You write: "Having created the desired impression, Moore follows with his Heston interview." No, he doesn't. You accuse Moore so often of changing the chronology, yet you have no problems changing it yourself. The Heston interview is at the very end of the movie. After the Flint rally comes a brief TV interview with Heston, where he is asked about Kayla Rolland (again, clear evidence that the local media in Flint raised questions about the NRA's presence), then an inteview with country prosecutor Arthur Busch, entirely ignored by critics of the film, who also mentions Heston's presence as notable, and refers to the immediate reactions of "people from all over America", gun owners/groups who, according to him, reacted aggressively to warnings of having guns accessible to children, much like spanking advocates react aggressively when anti-spankers point to a case of a child being killed or severely injured by a beating. These people do not feel the need to express sympathy, or to think about ways to avoid such incidents, but they feel the need to assert their "rights" and to look for quick, simple answers -- as Busch states, gun owners wanted to "hang [the child] from the highest tree". This is all not mentioned by critics of Moore's movie, who claim to be objective.

Perhaps the best example of the paranoia surrounding Moore's film is your sub-essay "Is the end of the Heston interview itself faked?"

Moore answers a simple question -- how could the scene have been filmed -- with a simple answer: two cameras. From this, you construct an obscure conspiracy of "re-enactment": "For all we can tell, Moore could have shouted 'Hey!' to make Heston turn around and then remained silent as Heston left." Even if your "re-enactment" theory is true (and I see no evidence that you have actually tried to ask the people involved in the filmmaking for their opinion), this itself is not unethical, and you have no evidence whatsoever that Moore has done anything unethical here, just like you have no evidence that Moore has unethically removed parts of the interview. You use standard filmmaking technique as a basis to construct bizarre conspiracies which sound plausible to the gullible reader, without ever providing any evidence for the implicit or explicit claims of fraud and distortion.

6)Animated history of the US. Of course the cartoon is highly oversimplified, and most critics consider it one of the weakest parts of the film. But it makes a valid claim which you ignore entirely: That the strategy to promote "gun rights" for white people and to outlaw gun possession by black people was a way to uphold racism without letting an openly terrorist organization like the KKK flourish. Did the 19th century NRA in the southern states promote gun rights for black people? I highly doubt it. But if they didn't, one of their functions was to continue the racism of the KKK. This is the key message of this part of the animation, which is again being ignored by its critics.

7) Buell shooting in Flint. You write: "Fact: The little boy was the class thug, already suspended from school for stabbing another kid with a pencil, and had fought with Kayla the day before". This characterization of a six-year-old as a pencil-stabbing thug is exactly the kind of hysteria that Moore's film warns against. It is the typical right-wing reaction which looks for simple answers that do not contradict the Republican mindset. The kid was a little bastard, and the parents were involved in drugs -- case closed. But why do people deal with drugs? Because it's so much fun to do so? It is by now well documented that the CIA tolerated crack sales in US cities to fund the operation of South American "contras"

It is equally well known that the so-called "war on drugs" begun under the Nixon administration is a failure which has cost hundreds of billions and made America the world leader in prison population (both in relative and absolute numbers).

In poor areas, the highly profitable drug business obviously is often seen as the last resort. But the real cause here are not the drugs themselves, but poverty and the "war on drugs".

Had the boy's mother not been shipped to a "welfare to work" program, she might at least have had some time to spend with her son. Virtually every child psychologist knows that mother/child bonding is essential for the development of empathy and social abilities, the awareness of the consequences of one's actions, and the learning of conflict resolution by non-violent means. Even the official quoted by Moore blames the welfare to work program, knowing full well that the drug issue is a red herring. Once again, your emphasis on the little boy as a thug confirms Moore's (and Busch's) assertion that people wanted to hang the child from the highest tree instead of looking at the real causes.

That's because while there is a so-called war on drugs, there is no war on poverty. Poverty is frequently portrayed as natural, and the poor in America are seen by conservatives as VCR-owners who are just too lazy to work.

In reality, what Moore describes here is the most vivid example of what can only be called wage slavery I have ever seen, to the detriment of families.

It is notable that the Wall Street Journal's reaction to this segment of the film was even more dismissive than yours: It called Moore's claim "preposterous". How could he even think about blaming poverty and forced labor programs for anything bad that happens?

8) Taliban and American aid. After the September 11 attacks, it was necessary for conservatives to somehow explain away the fact that the US government gave 245 million dollars to the new evildoers du jour. Never mind the fact that authors such as Robert Scheer warned of aiding the Taliban as early as in May 2001. Never mind that they did so not out of some humanitarian motivation, but because of the Taliban's violent enforcement of the ban on opium poppies. Never mind that in a regime that is controlled by warlords, it does not matter who is authorized to distribute the aid -- the ruling regional warlords will seize control of it and use it to their own advantage. Never mind that this very argument has been used by hawks in opposition to sending humanitarian aid to Iraq's Saddam Hussein. Never mind that the Taliban continued selling opium in spite of the deal. Never mind that this is all documented on Michael Moore's website about the film.

9) Gun homicides. Statistics are Moore's weakest point, and it is surprising that his critics don't dwell on them longer. That's because they know all too well that Moore is correct: The United States have a far greater homicide rate (both gun- and non-gun) than most other first world countries. His main mistake is that he does not use population corrected data, his second mistake is that he does not cite his sources (and, as you correctly point out, he probably uses different reporting methods for the different countries). A good comparison of international homicide rates can be found on the relatively neutral guncite.com website.

Not surprisingly, guncite, too, compares data from different years -- as I know from personal experience, it is quite difficult to do comparisons of crime statistics due to differences in reporting frequency and methodology. The gun homicide rates for the countries Moore mentioned, according to guncite, are:

Japan: 0.02 per 100,000 (1994)
England/Wales: 0.11 per 100,000 (1997)
Germany: 0.22 per 100,000 (1994)
Australia: 0.44 per 100,000 (1994)
United States: 3.72 per 100,000 (1999)

Critics fail to credit Moore with not making the same mistake that some gun control advocates make -- concluding that gun ownership "leads" to violence. In fact, Moore mentions several counter-examples, and more such counter-examples can indeed be cited. It is intuitively obvious that guns do not actually cause violence -- but it is equally intuitively obvious that they make the violence that is committed more deadly. It is the second intuition which gun rights groups like the NRA seek to obscure using fraudulent data by the likes of John "Mary" Lott.

The gun control movement, on the other hand, distracts from the real causes of violence -- poverty, paranoia, the "war on drugs" and antisexuality. If these causes were addressed, gun ownership in the United States would not be a problem (but also unnecessary); just like it is in Switzerland.

10) Canada ammunition purchase. You write:

Bowling shows Moore casually buying ammunition at an Ontario Walmart. He asks us to "look at what I, a foreign citizen, was able to do at a local Canadian Wal-Mart." He buys several boxes of ammunition without a question being raised. "That's right. I could buy as much ammunition as I wanted, in Canada. Canadian officials have pointed out that the buy is faked or illegal.

Once again, you fail to distinguish between regular film editing and "faking" (a word which "Canadian officials" have never used; for such a distortion, Moore would have been boiled alive by his critics). If Moore simply chose not to show how he revealed his identification to the salesperson, there is nothing fraudulent about that. He made no claims whatsoever in the film about the need to show or not show identification. His claim that it is possible to purchase ammunition in supermarkets is independent from that claim.

11) Heston's allegedly implied racism. You conclude from Heston's own words that Heston was somehow portrayed as racist. If anything, it is his own failure that he did not clarify what he meant with "having a more mixed ethnicity". Heston's answers in the interview were evasive and unhelpful. While this can in part be explained with his age and mental condition, if he is unable to defend the interests of the NRA, he should not be their spokesman. In this case, Hanlon's Razor can be applied to Heston -- he is probably not racist, but incompetent. Your accusations of inappropriate cutting are once again entirely unsupported -- in fact, it is quite clear from watching that particular scene that there is not a single cut from the point at which Moore asks Heston a second time for the cause of the higher violence in the States, and the point when he mentions the Kayla Rolland incident. If Heston makes himself look like a fool, that should hardly be blamed on Michael Moore.

Conclusion

You write: "Bowling for Columbine is dishonest. It is fraudulent. To trash Heston, it even uses the audio/video editor to assemble a Heston speech that Heston did not give, and sequences images and carefully highlighted text to spin the viewer's mind to a wrong conclusion." None of this is true. What is true is that Bowling for Columbine is a diamond in the small world of big screen documentaries, one that shines brightly and illuminates an often misunderstood aspect of American culture. It is not a flawless diamond -- the "48 hours" scene in particular suffers from bad editing, the statistics are suboptimal, and Heston gets a bit more bashing than he deserves. Other than towards the NRA, the movie tries hard to avoid simplistic conclusions, and comes up with some thoughtful answers. The most shameful part of the ongoing attacks against Moore is that these answers have been all but ignored by his critics. Had Moore wanted to make a propaganda film, he would have used other material: photos from America's Emergency Rooms.

Certainly, Moore is one of the most talented filmmakers in the United States today, and his film fully deserved its Oscar. The shrill (and remarkably unsuccessful) Internet campaign to "revoke" his award seems to be motivated more by jealousy than by real concerns about the film's accuracy. It is not only the highest grossing non-music documentary of all time, among the users of the largest Internet film database, IMDB, it is also the highest rated one. According to the LA Times, the documentary genre "owes a huge debt to Michael Moore" -- after Bowling's success, films like "Spellbound" and "Capturing the Friedmans" were taken seriously and shown in many more theatres than otherwise likely.

But perhaps the campaign against Moore is really motivated by another reason. His next project has the working title "Fahrenheit 9/11: The temperature at which freedom burns", and he intends to launch it shortly before the next US presidential election. It is unlikely, however, that the unfair attacks against him will have much of an impact. After all, the same kind of PR blitz was started against the previous record-holding documentary: "Roger & Me" by Michael Moore.

Yours sincerely,

Erik Möller

This text is in the public domain.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
Bowling for Columbine:
o .. fraudulent, deceptive, wrong! Oscar should be revoked. 14%
o .. more deceptive than good, but no need to revoke the award 9%
o .. fairly well done, not sure if it deserves an Oscar, though. 10%
o .. brilliant documentary with a few flaws, fully deserves the award. 35%
o .. flawless masterpiece. 7%
o .. haven't seen it. 22%

Votes: 214
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Bowling for Columbine: Documentary or Fiction?
o NRA
o gloating
o corpse show
o "full of lies"
o "Is the end of the Heston interview itself faked?"
o documented
o failure
o VCR-owners
o "preposter ous".
o warned
o documented
o found
o John "Mary" Lott
o antisexual ity
o Erik Möller
o Also by Eloquence


Display: Sort:
A defense of Michael Moore and "Bowling for Columbine" | 577 comments (557 topical, 20 editorial, 1 hidden)
Good article (4.46 / 13) (#1)
by sien on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 05:34:53 PM EST

Moore has fact problems. The site Spinsanity, which spends a lot of time attacking Coulter, Limbaugh et al has had two articles about Moore's factual slips.

But hey, whatever floats your boat as long as his politics isn't taken as gospel truth what's the problem? Really, I'm guessing if you went over PJ O'rourkes stuff and checked the facts you'd find heaps of errors too.

What's weird about this is the strength of the attacks. Can people get their money back from Ann Coulter's Treason ( Spinsanity debunking here ) because it was based on reckless distortion?

Perhaps, But... (2.27 / 33) (#2)
by CheeseburgerBrown on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 05:36:14 PM EST

...Michael Moore is still fat.


___
I am from a small, unknown country in the north called Ca-na-da. We are a simple, grease-loving people who enjoy le weekend de ski. Personally, I pref
My god, man... how rabid are you? (4.18 / 43) (#7)
by curien on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 06:34:40 PM EST

You're saying that Moore's film deserves to be an award-winning "documentary" because his specific semantics, when interpreted a certain way, dance just this side of the edge of the truth? There's a reason there's an op-ed section of newspapers, separate from the normal reporting sections. Documentaties should not use tricks of the camera or time-scale exaggerations to make a specific political point. To do so is disingenuous, and not in a documentary style.

The Acadamy should be ashamed, and Moore should be ashamed for allowing his edutainment to be so grossly miscategorized.

You spend a large portion of the text arguing against Hardy by saying that Moore had a point. Of course he had a point. That doesn't make the film a documentary. It merely makes it interesting.

--
John Ashcroft hates me for my freedom.

-1, Moore is an idiot. (1.90 / 33) (#13)
by Suppafly on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 08:38:39 PM EST


---
Playstation Sucks.
Defense (3.86 / 22) (#16)
by ComradeFork on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 08:49:08 PM EST

I think Bowling for Columbine can be compared to an anti-Darwinist Creationist book. Although blatent deceit is rare, the reader is very much mislead.

The difference of course is that the message behind Moore's film is mostly true.

a few complaints (4.32 / 34) (#19)
by khallow on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 09:11:30 PM EST

How can you say this with a straight face?

The same goes for the interview which follows. Moore's critics would expect us to have him quote Heston in his entirety, have him present fully the the PR that the NRA has used to justify its rally in Denver for reasons of "balance". The NRA was fully aware of the scandal it would cause through its rally and decided to push on because they believed to have enough media support to successfully do so. They were right. You claim that there was "no way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members." 10 days are more than enough to give advance warning of a change in location or date, had the NRA really wanted to. It is probably correct that their primary reason for not doing so was to save money, not to piss off the victims of Colubmine. That does not change the fact that they did just that. Moore presents the most important part of the speech to back up this point and ignores the fluff. This is what good documentary filmmaking is about. And here the critics again ignore important evidence:

Compare what you said to the relevant statement in "Truth about Bowling":

Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting (see links below), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.

Fact: At Denver, the NRA canceled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' meeting; that could not be cancelled because corporate law required that it be held. [No way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.]

Ie, the NRA cancelled everything except what it couldn't. Where is the scandal? Second, isn't it pretty asinine to insist that a group of 4 million people can literally cancel a meeting required by the bylaws in ten days? I think it is.

Further, how can you call Moore's fradulent editing of Heston's speech to be just "ignoring the fluff". It changed the meaning of the speech. A cut and paste job (IMHO) where every part was quoted out of context. Further, the "cold, dead" statement before the speech sure looked to me like it meant to be confused with the rest. And your condescending remarks about "conservative readers" are pretty stupid. Ie, Moore is using "standard filmmaking practice" and conservative readers are so unhip they don't understand this delicate process, hence, it doesn't matter that Moore presents Heston and the NRA in a totally misleading light.

Also, what business what it of the Mayor of Denver to request that the NRA stay away? What is forgotten here is that the Mayor Wellington Webb was an anti-gun advocate making a political point. For example, he campaigned against concealed carry laws in Colorado by taking out full page newspaper ads. Hence, we have good reason for the booing of Mayor Webb. He was perceived as an opponent of the NRA and he exploited the NRA meeting for political gain. In particular, it may be a broad "fuck you" to the Mayor of Denver, but not the children of Littleton, CO.

The Lockheed-Martin WMD angle seems pretty contrived to me, but one doesn't expect a professional filmmaker to understand the different between weapons that kill people, and tools that don't.

As Moore correctly points out, it is bizarre for a society to openly embrace the production of destructive weapons, but on the other hand see no connection of this to everyday violence -- children learn by imitating adults.

Ok, let's see here. You're talking about Lockheed-Martin's missile manufacturing. So should we be worrying about children building missiles of mass destruction because adults do that? No. Instead we're supposed to buy the twisted opinion that because somewhere, someone makes missiles that kill people, then we have kids in Littleton, CO shooting other kids. Could you even show a correlation between the two? I doubt it.

The "Truth about Bowling" take on Heston "interview" seems pretty weak to me. Ie, having two cameras takes most of the wind out of the sails. At least, it's a personal interaction between Moore and Heston. Since it is pretty far up the list of points that "Truth" was making, this is significant. Still it's pretty naive for someone supposedly versed in the mysteries of filmmaker to not understand that it's real easy for someone to be made to look foolish in an interview.

Your take on the Flint, MI is pretty decent. But never attribute solely to stupidity that which can be explained by self-interest. Ie, that self-interest can be stupid, misdirected, often is not malicious, and can even be benevolent and self-sacrificing, but it is there. This "Hanlon's Razor" is just wrong.

Finally, I just want to mention that selling Crack may be highly profitable, the Right Thing to Do (at least as far as fighting commies is concerned), and Not Such a Big Deal, but do you really want your kids living in a crack house? And should you be surprised when one kid shoots another in such an environment. Of course not. Because Mom has to work, the kids turn evil and shoot each other. Let's get sappy.

I have to agree with the soulless Wall Street Journal, this is preposterous.

Hmmm, I see no reference to the bank scene in Truth about Bowling. What happened to it?

Stating the obvious since 1969.

Write-in (3.25 / 8) (#21)
by curien on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 09:24:13 PM EST

Good movie, maybe deserved an Oscar, but it was not a documentary.

--
John Ashcroft hates me for my freedom.
Didn't Michael Moore... (2.55 / 9) (#22)
by GavalinB on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 09:37:17 PM EST

Gas Saddam Hussein's own people? Seriously, this is one of the best diary entries I've read in a long time. I'm a Michael Moore fan. I'm not sure he needs a grass-roots war against some web-based hack fought by a bunch of techies at K5. Moore's a big boy, he can take care of himself.
---
The Future is Prologue: Join Our Sagas Today!
Damn it all, I STILL miss Adequacy.org (4.30 / 13) (#29)
by regeya on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 10:03:15 PM EST

A minor nit to pick:

Moore portrays the NRA as an unethical, dishonest organization; he sees the paranoia and fear in the United States as a primary cause of violence, and he does not see gun ownership itself as a problem. His documentary is full of subtle humor, jaw-dropping dialogue and dark contrasts. All in all, it is an accurate portrayal of America's gun and violence culture. It also raises questions about America's foreign policy of recent decades, questions which have been all but ignored by Moore's critics.

Moore doesn't present an accurate portrayal. It's like saying that CNN and FOX accurately report the news. No, Mr. Moore presents clips to fit his audience's viewpoint. Presenting a "popular" viewpoint puts butts in seats. Do you really thing that Micheal Moore does what he does simply out of a desire to perform public services?

Heh. That wasn't for Eloquence's sake; that's for those of y'all who actually take Micheal Moore seriously.

[ yokelpunk | kuro5hin diary ]

Brevity is the soul of wit. (3.13 / 15) (#32)
by randyk on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 10:13:27 PM EST

Christ, it's a damn movie. It would take me longer to read this than watch the thing.

-1.



A couple minor corrections (3.80 / 10) (#33)
by Anonymous 242 on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 10:32:03 PM EST

Similarly, the main motivation for the crusades (beyond the promise of wealth) was that Christians were supposedly being slaughtered and had to be saved.
Which Crusdes were these? Most of the justification for most of the Crusades was simply to slaughter infidels and/or heretics. Some Crusades also had secondary rationales sucah as driving Muslims out of the Holy Land or uniting all of Europe under the Pope. Saving Christians from being slaughtered was a tertiary purpose if it existed at all.
Moore's detractors have sometimes extended those 7-10 days to several weeks, contradicting the bank's own estimate.
7-10 days is several weeks, especially if (as is probable) they are 7-10 business days.

This story (1.47 / 23) (#37)
by A Proud American on Tue Aug 12, 2003 at 11:45:25 PM EST

... is queerer than a black Jew eating fruitberry Haagen-Daz while standing at home plate wearing a sideways hat, Tommy jean shorts, and swinging a football bat.

Whatever the fuck that means anyway...

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


Hate speech (3.41 / 48) (#38)
by rusty on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 12:04:49 AM EST

Moore's film was made before the dead bodies of Qusay and Uday Hussein were paraded on national TV. Americans were gloating over this demented corpse show... Americans cheer the killing of children

I am deeply repulsed by these lines. I'm afraid you've crossed the line into hate speech. Please think about what you're saying, and what kind of grotesque mask you're projecting onto millions of your fellow human beings.

____
Not the real rusty

Hot damn! (3.91 / 23) (#39)
by Matt Oneiros on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 12:34:06 AM EST

You sure are an angry one. Self rightousness gets us all nowhere, except hell faster than we're aleady headed.

Let's face it, michael moore, although he makes some good points, is essentially an uncompromising and inflationary jackass. What do I mean by inflationary? He exaggerates to make points he probably could make without exagerating and hurting his work.

And, believe it or not. I say the same applies to you to a large degree and the fellow your complaining about.

In the end, we have three morons. All of them are stroking their egos.

Lobstery is not real
signed the cow
when stating that life is merely an illusion
and that what you love is all that's real

compiling on gentoo with perl 5.8.0 (1.81 / 64) (#40)
by rmg on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 12:35:16 AM EST

hi... i tried compiling your article under gentoo with perl 5.8.0.

here's a log:

$ perl -v

This is perl, v5.8.0 built for i686-linux

Copyright 1987-2002, Larry Wall

Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the
GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit.

Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on
this system using `man perl' or `perldoc perl'.  If you have access to the
Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.com/, the Perl Home Page.

$ perl defenseofcolumbine.pl
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 3, near ")

 By"
        (Missing operator before By?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 4, near "12th"
        (Missing operator before th?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 4, near "2003 at"
        (Missing operator before at?)
Number found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 4, near "at 09"
        (Do you need to predeclare at?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 4, near "04 PM"
        (Missing operator before PM?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 10, near "-- in"
        (Missing operator before in?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 15, near "time of"
        (Do you need to predeclare time?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 15, near "conservative "grass-roots""
        (Do you need to predeclare conservative?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 15, near ""grass-roots" propaganda"
        (Missing operator before propaganda?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 29, at end of line
        (Do you need to predeclare that?)
Semicolon seems to be missing at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 31.
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 32, near "like "Quake""
        (Do you need to predeclare like?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 32, near "000 people"
        (Missing operator before people?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 32, near ") was"
        (Missing operator before was?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, near ""Culture of Fear" by"
        (Missing operator before by?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, near ") is"
        (Missing operator before is?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, near "no relationship whatsoever"
        (Do you need to predeclare no?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, near ") media"
        (Missing operator before media?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 38, near "-- war"
        (Missing operator before war?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 38, near ""the enemies of freedom" are"
        (Missing operator before are?)
Semicolon seems to be missing at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 42.
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 43, near "14 years"
        (Missing operator before years?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near ") The"
        (Missing operator before The?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near "was "staged""
        (Do you need to predeclare was?)
Number found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near "about 500"
        (Do you need to predeclare about?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near "500 weapons"
        (Missing operator before weapons?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near "been "normally""
        (Do you need to predeclare been?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near ""normally" picked"
        (Missing operator before picked?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 52, near ""normally" is"
        (Missing operator before is?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 55, near ""Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period." This"
        (Missing operator before This?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 55, near "-- but"
        (Missing operator before but?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 55, near "10 days"
        (Missing operator before days?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 61, near ") The"
        (Missing operator before The?)
Semicolon seems to be missing at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 66.
Semicolon seems to be missing at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 69.
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 70, near "word "our""
        (Do you need to predeclare word?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 70, near ""our" in"
        (Missing operator before in?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 70, near "-- otherwise"
        (Missing operator before otherwise?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 73, near ""Although other units of Lockheed Martin Corporation elsewhere in the country produce weapons to support the defense of the U.S., we make no weapons at the Littleton-area facility Moore visited." Of"
        (Missing operator before Of?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 73, near "-- children"
        (Missing operator before children?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 76, near "no incorrect statement"
        (Do you need to predeclare no?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 79, near ") Denver"
        (Missing operator before Denver?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 82, near "the "from my cold, dead hands""
        (Do you need to predeclare the?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 82, near ""from my cold, dead hands" part"
        (Missing operator before part?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 82, near "again "misattributed""
        (Do you need to predeclare again?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 82, near ") is"
        (Missing operator before is?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 85, near "The "visual of a billboard and a narration""
        (Do you need to predeclare The?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 85, near ""visual of a billboard and a narration" is"
        (Missing operator before is?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 85, near "-- he"
        (Missing operator before he?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 85, near ""distorting" the"
        (Missing operator before the?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 88, near "was "no way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members.""
        (Do you need to predeclare was?)
Number found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 88, near ""no way to change location, since you have to give advance notice of that to the members, and there were upwards of 4,000,000 members." 10"
        (Missing operator before  10?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 88, near "10 days"
        (Missing operator before days?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 91, near "said "Fuck you""
        (Do you need to predeclare said?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 94, near ") The"
        (Missing operator before The?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 94, near "29. Again"
        (Missing operator before Again?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 94, near ""Moore works by depriving you of context and guiding your mind to fill the vacuum -- with completely false ideas. It is brilliantly, if unethically, done." As"
        (Missing operator before As?)
String found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 94, near "the "from my cold dead hands""
        (Do you need to predeclare the?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 94, near ""from my cold dead hands" part"
        (Missing operator before part?)
Semicolon seems to be missing at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 108.
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 109, near ") Why"
        (Missing operator before Why?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 109, near ""Clinton is on the Today Show" visible"
        (Missing operator before visible?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 112, near ") Both"
        (Missing operator before Both?)
Bareword found where operator expected at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 112, near ""soccer mom" interview"
        (Missing operator before interview?)
syntax error at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 1, near ""Bowling for Columbine" ("
Illegal octal digit '9' at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 4, at end of line
syntax error at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 29, next token ???
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, at end of line
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, at end of line
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 35, at end of line
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 49, at end of line
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 73, at end of line
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 76, at end of line
"no" not allowed in expression at defenseofcolumbine.pl line 112, at end of line
defenseofcolumbine.pl has too many errors.

i don't really know perl so i don't know what's wrong.

plz fix k thx.


_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

No Defense for Moore (3.95 / 20) (#41)
by duffbeer703 on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 12:45:45 AM EST

He's a loudmouth demogouge... a sort of populist Howard Stern. I pay as little attention to him as I pay to Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter.


this will be brief (3.04 / 23) (#46)
by YelM3 on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 01:31:51 AM EST

I don't care if Moore flat-out lied in his film. The film made a lot of people think about a very important topic in a way that they never had before. When I saw this in the theatre, people cried. That was worth any kind of exaggeration because the underlying messages of the film are just that important. I also think the academy members recognized this.

Where you are going wrong (2.22 / 27) (#55)
by Big Dogs Cock on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 03:55:04 AM EST

You are trying to use logic with an NRA supporter. Let's face it, that's never going to work.

People say that anal sex is unhealthy. Well it cured my hiccups.
Worse than Christian apologetics (4.03 / 26) (#62)
by Quila on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 05:10:36 AM EST

I've seen less logical gymnastics coming from a strict creationist.

Moore's film was entertaining and had a generally good message -- that we need to look at ourselves and ask "why are we so violent?" But his means were full of lies, distortions and editing tricks that do not belong in a documentary.

For reference, let's use the definition of "documentary," which is "Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film." Moore did not come close to achieving this goal.

10 days are more than enough to give advance warning of a change in location or date, had the NRA really wanted to.

This shows the extent to which you are willing to go to excuse Moore. You do not tell that many people to change vacation plans, work schedules and flight reservations in 10 days. The most you can expect is to cut out all festivities and events, leaving only the required meeting -- which the NRA did. No one would have noticed the NRA being in town had the mayor not decided to use the visit for political gain.

I think the best scene in the movie was with Marilyn Manson who, when asked what he would have said to the Columbine kids if given a chance, said "I wouldn't say a single word to them. I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did."

Too much sympathy for assholes (1.27 / 40) (#65)
by Chuck Freck on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 05:42:12 AM EST

The idiots who did Columbine were sociopathic assholes. They should be identified early in their lives and killed. Sure you get a few false positives but look at the rest of the world. People get smutted out for very little in most of the primative world. Woman fucks a man who is not her husband in Saudi Arabia and BANG she gets killed. Israeli child stands in wrong spot and BANG he/she gets killed. I am perfectly willing that kids who exhibit antisocial behaviour get killed. The world is meaner than you asshole socialist passivists want.

However, a couple of agreements (3.87 / 8) (#82)
by Quila on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 08:14:16 AM EST

It is equally well known that the so-called "war on drugs" begun under the Nixon administration is a failure which has cost hundreds of billions and made America the world leader in prison population

Can't argue with you there.

Critics fail to credit Moore with not making the same mistake that some gun control advocates make -- concluding that gun ownership "leads" to violence.

And there. In fact, I find it strange when even the most liberal media outlets characterized BFC as an "anti-gun" movie when it absolutely is not. It is possible that Moore's rants and deceptions against the NRA leads people to believe the movie is anti-gun. Or maybe it's because he rails against guns for a while but then quickly says "maybe that's not the reason."

I sleep for 6 hours (3.40 / 25) (#95)
by RyoCokey on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 09:44:14 AM EST

...and look what crap slithers onto Kuro5hin.org. The front page no less!

Not only that, after this tiresome "rebuttal" is which you basically admit he made up parts of his "documentary" you go on say it's justified because the conclusions were correct!

No the fuck they are not. He merely reached the conclusion that you agreed with, regardless of the facts. He had a point he wanted to convey, and was perfectly happy to ignore the truth to get there.

Other people point out more detailed problems with the argument here and here.



farmers don't break into our houses at night, steal our DVDs and piss on the floor. No
Truth value? (4.11 / 9) (#98)
by the on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 10:03:30 AM EST

Critics have now gone so far as to call for the revocation of the award
Since when have Oscars been given for truth value?

--
The Definite Article
Jealousy? (3.85 / 7) (#99)
by grouse on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 10:04:21 AM EST

The shrill (and remarkably unsuccessful) Internet campaign to "revoke" his award seems to be motivated more by jealousy than by real concerns about the film's accuracy. You've got to be kidding. Perhaps these people are not really concerned about the film's accuracy, but I doubt they are motivated by jealousy. More likely is that they just don't like Michael Moore and those darn liberals.

You sad bastard!

"Grouse please don't take this the wrong way... To be quite frank, you are throwing my inner Chi out of its harmonious balance with nature." -- Tex Bigballs

I was impressed by the movie (4.47 / 17) (#100)
by 8ctavIan on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 10:07:14 AM EST

I think the movie gets its point across very well - which is to get us thinking about why the US is such a violent society compared to other developed/industrialized nations. I was impressed by the way the film achieved this. I think those that criticize the movie misunderstand that important point. Nowhere in the movie does it say why the US is violent. The film intelligently and covertly asks us to ask ourselves. That feat was truly impressive, in my opinion.

In fairness to the movie's critics, I too objected to the treatment of Charlton Heston. I believe Michael Moore's historical perspective here was lacking. He demonized Heston, but he should have been asking himself, as I did when I left the theater, how did Charlton Heston end up being the front man for the NRA? He could have had us ask ourselves that question in the same way as the film as a whole asks us to reflect on the US' violent tendencies.

Charlton Heston was, in the 60's, what we would call today a 'liberal'. He marched with Martin Luther King Jr. in support of civil rights. He was largely responsible for bringing great films like Orson Welles' 'Touch of Evil' and the original 'Planet of the Apes' to the screen. These films espoused progressive views in their day


Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice. -- H.L. Mencken

Comedy and Hollywood (2.35 / 17) (#113)
by n8f8 on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 10:43:59 AM EST

A long time ago Michael Moore started taking himself too seriously. I loved the movie because is was funny and obviously edited in a bizzare way.

As far as claims that the US is more violent than other developed countries---bullshit!. Anti-gun nutjobs who are incapable of two seconds of critical thought spout rhetoric that --thankfully-- most of the voting population ignores.

We are one of the few countries where the statistics are more often produced by indpendent sources. I find it doubly odd that almost every major orgainzation quoting anti-US stats is HQ'd in France (A country that has singlehandedly fucked up two continents) or some other socialist European country.  

Sig: (This will get posted after your comments)

You don't actually refute any points. (3.76 / 13) (#119)
by Demiurge on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 11:39:27 AM EST

You either excuse Moore's dishonesty(like in the guns in the bank example, where you admit that Moore presented an incorrect representation of the bank's policy), or you just repeat Moore's lies while completely ignoring criticism of them, like where you make the same foolish claim about aid to the Taliban that Moore did.

Pfft. (3.57 / 14) (#122)
by porkchop_d_clown on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 11:50:39 AM EST

But perhaps the campaign against Moore is really motivated by another reason. His next project has the working title "Fahrenheit 9/11: The temperature at which freedom burns", and he intends to launch it shortly before the next US presidential election.

Nothing like a good conspiracy theory. Yeah, actually the Lemurians, working out of Area 51, are trying to supress free thought before installing their next puppet in the White House. All hail, President Al Franken!

The fact that the guy is a walking reality-distortion field, who doesn't even make a pretense of objectivity and then claims his work is "documentary" isn't enough to dislike him?


--
His men will follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid curiousity.


A violent reaction from a violent place? (4.18 / 33) (#127)
by gidds on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 12:18:43 PM EST

I note that in all the criticisms on both sides, the childish political name-calling and hand-wringing, almost no-one is arguing against Moore's overall conclusions.

No-one is claiming that the US is not a violent country, far more so than most others in the first world; no-one is claiming that guns aren't readily available there, nor that that has no effect on the death rate. No-one is saying that the media suffers from a lack of violent images, or that reports of violent events are never sensationalised; no-one thinks that people there are too affectionate towards their children and each other, or that US foreign policy is too placid and pacifist. And I've seen no claims that the NRA is a caring, sensitive organisation, that no banks are handing out guns with accounts opened, that it's impossible to buy ammunition in local shops, that Lockheed Martin doesn't build WMDs, or...

In short, much as people may like or dislike Moore or his methods, and much as the minutiae of his film may be debated, his overall conclusions seem depressingly sound.

Instead, the impression I get is of people who dislike these conclusions, but whose only way of arguing against them is sniping at anything they can twist to sound like an inconsistency, and cheap name-calling at Moore and his defenders. This is no way to convince me, or anyone.

My view, if anyone's interested, is that Moore knows his PR; he's a master of creating eloquent images and situations, of making people look foolish, and of using his faux-naive and friendly manner to get just what he wants. However, I think he uses these tactics (and let's face it, all documentary makers use similar tactics) in order to make valid points.

I was also very impressed by something that many see as a criticism of the film: that he started off making a 'ban guns' film, and then changed his point. Why is this a problem? If anything, it underscores his honesty: he changed the point of his film to fit the facts, not the other way around! If it had been made by a blinkered activist with an agenda, it would have been more tightly constructed, with every image, every word constructed simply to drive their one point home; instead, what we get is something that rambles, that seems unsure of what point it's making, that's exploring rather than declaiming. It makes suggestions, but leaves the viewer to draw some of their own conclusions, and resists the temptation to find easy answers.

In fact, the anger directed at this film saddens me just as much as its conclusions do. I don't live in the US, but having watched endless hours of US-produced TV and films, having visited it more than once, having read far more in the news about the US than any USian would probably see about the whole of Europe, and having followed web sites such as this one with its share of USians, I don't think I'm unqualified to have an opinion about the place. The US is a violent place; one that, moreover, rejoices in its violence. The blind anger that a film like this can generate simply shows how ingrained into its culture that violence is.

Andy/

too bad! (1.71 / 7) (#135)
by hemna on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 01:56:08 PM EST

When you are Mr. Moore sticking your neck out constantly every time you have a mic in your face, with the words he says, you have to expect some backlash. Deal with it.

Mr Moore is a troll... (3.54 / 11) (#136)
by faustus on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 02:14:45 PM EST

...and so is Ann Coulter and Christopher Hitchens. Everything coming out of their mouths is designed to ensure that they get another chance on TV or another piece of paper to write on. This is achieved by addopting positions which are inflammatory and annoying, designed to spark vicous counter-attacks and ad-hominem rebutals. Talking head shows are governed by the same axioms as the WWF; the viewer wants to see blood in every medium. Moore's movie would not of been made if it was "fair and objective" as the clamouring libertarian masses are demanding of it, so quit complaining! Enjoy it as the troll that it is and you will be happier for it.

As far as documentaries go.. (4.50 / 14) (#139)
by illustir on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 02:39:04 PM EST

I'm used to watch documentaries made in the Netherlands by Dutch moviemakers. In that tradition our documentary makers usually stay behind their camera's trying not interfere with the image viewers are getting.
And also when they ask questions they pose them neutrally only to nudge the questionee to reveal some more than he would usually have.
Imagine my shock when I saw this so called documentary.

Now I do imagine that in a country where the debate is so polarized this style might be necessary but to me (an outsider) it gave the impression of a propagandist movie like the ones made by ideologically bankrupt political movies.

For a propaganda movie BfC posed too many questions without any direction and left the main question mostly unanswered. This kind of stumped me. All it left me was to agree: "Yes Michael, you're quite right. It must be one hell of a fucked-up country you are living in."

As much as I would like to hate Moore I can't. As a liberal democratic European I'm forced to give him my sympathy because in the USA most all the alternatives are worse than him.
Damn the man for leaving me with these mixed feelings.



Troll identified (3.00 / 8) (#143)
by BinaryTree on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 02:47:53 PM EST

After careful analysis, it appears that you are 43.7% ideologue, 39.8% ferrous cranus, and 16.5% stone deaf.

The Canadian Slum (4.14 / 7) (#147)
by odds on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 02:56:52 PM EST

I just have a tangential comment. In the movie, Moore shows what he calls a Canadian "slum" - pristine, tidy and nice. Is it really a slum? I can show you much more delapidated neighbourhoods in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. But it depends on your definition of slum - the place he shows is part of the St Lawrence housing development, a co-operative located on the Esplanade in downtown Toronto; my ex-girlfriend lived there. It's not a slum, but some residents of the complex are quite low-income. The development as a whole is mixed-income, with higher income residents subsidizing lower income housing (as far as I understand it). So by appearance standards, it's not a slum, but by income level it could qualify. In fact, it was built as a reaction to the terrible 1960s projects, which were as devastating in Toronto as in American cities.

Initially, when I saw Moore's film, I thought he was being very deceptive by portraying this place as a slum. In retrospect, I think he makes a valid point - he challenges our definition of the word "slum," forcing us to consider the idea that low income people don't have to live in an ugly neighbourhood.

- David

Halfwits and leftie pundits... (2.13 / 15) (#150)
by theunum on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 03:26:39 PM EST

Michael Moore has a history of deception that begins with the persona that he presents. He wants you to believe that he is an everyman blue collar Joe from the Cheese belt. Truth is, he is a catholic priesthood washout who figured out he could make a shitload of money making movies based on manipulated half-truths and lies, who lives quite nicely sending his kiddies off to private school and the works.

His persona is a lie, he is a typical leftwing pontificating hypocrite who will manipulate facts at the drop of a hat so he isn't wrong.

Anyone defending his farce is a moron.
People suck, the sooner you realize that the happier you are. Cynicism is good for you.

I don't get it. (2.15 / 13) (#152)
by Mr Hogan on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 05:07:16 PM EST

I'm a working man don't hardly have time to read your hysterical missive - it is much too long the logic too discursive and I have far too many much better things to occupy my time for example the three episodes of Law and Order today - and tomorrow and the day after that - I have to record on the VCR and John Walsh is on Larry King today to talk about the children of crack whores - their bodies riddled with bullet holes - promote his show - which show I remind you unlike Moore's documentary is the non-melodramatic unscripted truth just like CNN CBS and the NY TIMES - segue into a series of moral decrees uttered dispassionately - it is the reason talking - Jesus the man is indefatigable - a saint practically - lesser men would have died from the outrage - and finally take your calls on the Laci Patterson case - which because it is an alarming trend was the subject of Larry King yesterday and will be the subject again tomorrow unless something urgent comes up - say a spoiled-rich hoops nigger rapes yet another little girl 16 going on 21 or a Hollywood starlet wants to renounce her life as a teenage porno nymph - Jesus all this - and lots more - one hour before CSI: Crime Scene Investigation and Without a Trace and etc - well it's obvious to me at least as I sit here on the couch eating "diet" cheese gaining weight supporting the troops watching American Justice and the Cold Case Files on the Arts & Entertainment network polishing my freedom gun plotting for my deliverance from crazed drug peddlers and pedophiles and Islamists - Jesus a body isn't safe anymore in a country with more policemen and prisoners than any other - EVER - it's a jungle out there something a salon.com liberal wishes he were a lesbian don't understand - because he's a furriner can't tune into the American TV grid - you have some nerve lecturing us about guns and violence - our heritage is Heston - he played Moses - yours is Hitler. Ever think of that?

--
Life is food and rape, then tilt.

Well done (2.75 / 8) (#157)
by Pholostan on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 05:45:21 PM EST

A well written and well thought out article. Finally somebody who applies his brain and tries to make something clear out of all the inflamatory remarks about the documentary.

I don't agree fully with Mr Moore. About some things I really do think that we are at odds. But I have seen his documentary and it is really good.

All you people who dismiss BfC as "propaganda" really need to think a bit about what propaganda really is. This is not a "left-right" issue.
- And blood tears I cry Endless grief remained inside

but was it a documentary? (2.57 / 7) (#166)
by knightbg on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 06:30:07 PM EST

Too start with: i tend to (though not always) agree with moore's views, though this really has no bearing on what I will say.  I like this movie, and I thought it deserved the oscar.  i will now tell you why.

I have never heard Moore refer to this movie as a documentary.  I will not go so far as to say he never has, but I consistently hear him say "non-fiction film."  I believe that this is because Moore's film (clearly) does more than document facts.  Other posters have commented that documentarians aren't supposed to intercede, or edit to show a particular point of view.  The fact is, however, that there are no such "rules" about what you can and can't do in film.  Though I'm not positive about it, and in fact would bet against it, as far as I can tell Moore has done something new here: by using documentary techniques and mixing them with a variety of other genres (children's cartoons, music videos, etc.), he has made an editorial film.

Where other documentarians strive to remain neutral, Moore is deliberately trying to push his own views.  There is nothing wrong with this, though it is jarring at first because we are accustomed to films like this being unbiased.  Moore has done something extraordinary within his medium, and that is why he deserved his Academy Award.

Who has time to read this crap? (4.09 / 11) (#168)
by BuddasEvilTwin on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 06:36:27 PM EST

  First of all, I consider myself very socially liberal as somewhat of a libertarian.  

  I saw BFC and enjoyed the movie, but after reading portions of Mr. Hardy's criticism and your rebuttles it seems pretty obvious that Michael Moore was cleverly deceptive.

  He may not have "technically" lied, but certainly used every editing technique in the book to make the audience assume more than what really happened.

  I assumed that the NRA either intentionally held a rally or refused to reschedule a rally when I saw the movie.  Everybody I talked to assumed the same.  

  I would have never known the NRA DID cancel the rallies and events but were legally obligated to hold the meeting for its members.

  Secondly, his slum in Canada is anything but one.  If he'd even bother taking his camera down Toronto's famous Yong St. you'd have a hard time not finding a homeless man.  Go a little west and you'll find some bad neighborhoods.

  I love Canada, but it's not the utopia that Moore makes it out to be nor is it the socialist nightmare the right wingers love to present.

  Why are you wasting your time defending Michael Moore?  Your article on Perpetual Conciousness was very intriguing even if you didn't do a great job following through with the idea.


Agree and Disagree (4.00 / 8) (#170)
by fuzzcat on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 06:46:41 PM EST

7) Buell shooting in Flint. You write: "Fact: The little boy was the class thug, already suspended from school for stabbing another kid with a pencil, and had fought with Kayla the day before". This characterization of a six-year-old as a pencil-stabbing thug is exactly the kind of hysteria that Moore's film warns against. It is the typical right-wing reaction which looks for simple answers that do not contradict the Republican mindset. The kid was a little bastard, and the parents were involved in drugs -- case closed.

I agree with you here. I think that the criticism can be made with respect to both the extreme right and the extreme left however. In order to completely embrace one world view with as few reservations as we see at the ideological extremes, you have to simplify a complex system, ignoring those parts that conflict with said world view.

And this, I think, is the weak point of your article. In your eagerness to defend Moore, you're willing to put aside virtually anything that might be a valid criticism of his work. You have the framework for a very decent article here, and I suspect that you just let your emotions run a little wild, leading to statements like:

Americans cheer the killing of children...
Rein in those horses next time, cowboy.

Round 1: FIGHT (2.33 / 3) (#176)
by Mike Green Challenge on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 07:40:05 PM EST

I'd love to see Michael Moore fighting Michael Green. However the outcome would be obvious no doubt. :)

--
Aspies for Ron Paul
A very tangental note (2.00 / 4) (#178)
by wji on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 07:58:05 PM EST

Regarding the Hussein kid, 14, who got killed in the raid: why is everyone assuming that because the US troops said that he was armed and shooting, he was? What are we, the American media?

In conclusion, the Powerpuff Girls are a reactionary, pseudo-feminist enterprise.
Still Unclear Why (4.33 / 6) (#189)
by CoolName on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 09:26:55 PM EST

Why does the US have such a high murder rate? Moore says American culture is responsible. But as an analysis of American culture 'Bowling for Columbine' is woefully lacking. American history was characterized in a short cartoon, for example. 'Bowling for Columbine' fails to make it's case. This is why the documentary is weak. I doubt the two killers were very much troubled over U.S. strategic missile policy. This film was more about the Michael Moore zeitgeist than gun control. What did one learn about gun control issues? Zip. Why people are murdering each other here is still a mystery. Though Michael Moore is unfair still the right has little to complain about given Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh etc who are just as unfair but from a rightwing perspective.

"What does your conscience say? -- 'You shall become the person you are.'" Friedrich Nietzsche


Welfare comment (4.00 / 7) (#194)
by thefirelane on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 09:50:49 PM EST

Had the boy's mother not been shipped to a "welfare to work" program, she might at least have had some time to spend with her son.

This is something Michael Moore alludes to in his movie, and you repeat. It is something more forgivable for Moore though, as this study was not completed before the movie.

I wish I could find the link to the study, but I just heard about it on the radio (can anyone help me out). Recent studies about the welfare to work program found that it does not, on average, have any effect on the amount of time mothers spend with their children. From what I remember, the lost time comes primarily from the mothers social activities.

Again, I can't find the study posted online, but if someone knows of what I'm talking about, or can provide a link, I'd appreciate it


---Lane

-
Prube.com: Like K5, but with less point.
Inherent In The Fact (3.14 / 7) (#202)
by machiavellieins on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 10:18:59 PM EST

that it takes 5081 words, likely many hours if not many days of independent research, a liberal eye for the "truth" and some slippery logic and argumentation to attempt to explain away the numerous occurences of deception and outright lies present in Moore's filmmaking means that in actuality the work was not a documentary but rather political propoganda masked in a veil of objectivity.

It's a documentary, folks (3.70 / 10) (#205)
by wrinkledshirt on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 10:45:14 PM EST

I wish the Moore-bashers would give up on their attempt to make themselves right by definition when they try to say Bowling For Columbine isn't a documentary. He uses real historical footage and media. He interviews real people. He doesn't hire actors to portray metaphorical situations which take up the entirety of the film. He refers to real events. He does not try to create drama through character development. The conflict is a direct result of his analysis of social phenomena and the way he juxtaposes them.

If this isn't a documentary, what the heck else is it?

The question isn't whether it's a documentary or not, it's whether it's a good documentary. You can't even argue that the film doesn't try to be objective, because even though Moore certainly isn't, a good chunk of the film is devoted to giving his interviewees a chance to speak their opinions to balance his views out.

I also love how the word "disingenuous" gets bandied about alot these days when talking about Moore (or other non-establishment-based rhetoric, but that's a whole other digression). Seems to me that most of the false representations you hear about these days aren't coming from Moore.

Mike Moore is not poor (3.40 / 5) (#212)
by QuantumG on Wed Aug 13, 2003 at 11:20:14 PM EST

Although I loved Bowling for Columbine, I'm sure it was simply because it was aligned with my own biases. What I didn't like about the film was that Mike Moore is always "on the side of the little guy" as he says and talks a lot about "us poor folks". Well here's a new's flash: Mike aint poor. He's really quite rich, and when he chills out in the ghetto and bags out the "big rich and powerful folk" it comes across as just a tad fake. Mr Moore has an important political message to make, and one that I happen to agree with, but let's lose the man of the people routine.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
And we go around the circle again (4.34 / 29) (#220)
by godix on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 12:49:09 AM EST

How fun. Idiot film maker distorts truth. People against idiot film maker respond by distorting the truth. Idiot K5 user repsonds by distorting the truth. Can we get off this circle and start dealing with reality please?

I'm not going to go point by point on Trolling for Columbine, I have no interest in going 'But on frame 47921 it clearly shows...' Instead I'm going to deal with your more blatent stupidities about the gun control debate.

In a time of simple-minded patriotism, loud, clear and dissenting voices like Mr. Moore's are perceived as disturbing and have to be silenced

Trolling for Columbine won an Oscar. Because of Moores actions on Oscar night and the controvery around his movie it has probably been watched more than any documentary since Roger & Me. You manage to perceive this as an attempt to silence Moore. Riiiiiight.
Moore portrays the NRA as an unethical, dishonest organization ... All in all, it is an accurate portrayal of America's gun and violence culture.

Thank god you kept your bias out of this. We can hold an intelligent and rational debate about the issue this way. I'd hate to think what a baised load of shit your article would be if you had started by trying to demonize anyone who thinks differently than you.
listening to a radio broadcast that tells you that your family will be killed unless you take action to kill others now. The latter is the kind of media propaganda that was used to unleash a genocide in Rwanda in 1994, which killed 800,000 people.

The movie is about American violence. So is the debate around the movie. Unless you can link to Dan Rather saying 'Kill all niggers or we chop off your babies head in front of you' your bringing in Rwandan media tactics into a debate on American violence is bullshit.
Similarly, the main motivation for the crusades (beyond the promise of wealth) was that Christians were supposedly being slaughtered and had to be saved.

Again, that wasn't America. That was also before America was even discovered much less had the USA and her gun laws started. Bullshit, complete bullshit.
Children who grow up in war-torn regions are known for having similar views -- war is perceived as a normal part of existence, violence as a natural way to solve disputes.

The last war on American land was the Civil War around 130 years ago. No child born in America today grew up in a 'war-torn region'. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.
have to endure corporal punishment

Unlike that fairly peaceful nation of Singapore for example?
Did the 19th century NRA in the southern states promote gun rights for black people?

Probably not. However that was over 100 years ago. Racism is no longer considered socially acceptable, especailly when it means endorsing or aiding violence against a race. Astounding how things change in a century. Perhaps you could try to find an example that someone living might remember? At least you got the right country this time though.
This characterization of a six-year-old as a pencil-stabbing thug is exactly the kind of hysteria that Moore's film warns against.

So are you saying the boy wasn't a pencil-stabbing thug or are you saying his early violence is irrelevent to his later violence?
But the real cause here are not the drugs themselves, but poverty and the "war on drugs".

Correlation is not causation. Poverty doesn't cause violence, but in America it is a predictor of violence. On the other hand, ever notice that most violence in any country are caused by people well feed instead of those so poor they're living on dumpster divings?
Had the boy's mother not been shipped to a "welfare to work" program, she might at least have had some time to spend with her son.

Of course, she might also have pushed him into dealing to support her habit. Or she might have blown his brains out herself. Or she might have just beat him daily. That's the fun thing about 'might haves', you can make them into anything you want to support your biases. And you have. Over here in reality we'd like some proof that welfare for work is producing gun slinging kids.
there is no war on poverty.

Take a look at the first google link for "war on poverty". You may know this by another name, in America we call it 'welfare'.
Taliban and American aid.

...happens to be totally irrelevent to a debate on gun violence in America. However it does make the US look bad and that apperently was your goal instead of intelligent debate on the issues. I'll ignore the fact you manage to present the facts in such a biased way it's hard to call it anything but a lie.
The United States have a far greater homicide rate (both gun- and non-gun) than most other first world countries.

While this is a true statement it's so misleading that it's a lie. You are forgetting the fundamental idea that the US has a higher population than most other first world countries so of course it's raw numbers are going to be higher. Lets use figures from a site unbiased on either side of the issue. The Australian government (PDF link) has a file on international violence levels. Some things to note here: America had a 20% drop in crime between 1990 to 2000, the largest percentage drop of any country listed. The following cities have over 10 homicides per 100K people: Tallinn, Estonia; Moscow, Russia; Pretoria, South Africa; and Washington DC, USA. An America city tops the list, but there is only one American city out of the four listed. Note that New York and LA, typically pictured as  very violent cities, do not have over 10 homicides per 100K people. Also note the chance to be a repeat victim of crime in 1999 was higher in England & Wales, Scotland, Denmark, Netherlands, Poland, Sweden, Australia, and Canada than it was in America. When looking at the charts keep in mind that what is important for comparison is % of population rather than just numbers, America has a higher number of crimes for the simple reason American has more people.
The gun homicide rates for the countries Moore mentioned, according to guncite, are:

SIGH. Of course countries with less guns are going to have less gun related homicides. Try comparing total number of homicides regardless of weapon used and you'll see a vastly different picture painted, as I showed above. I love how you link to a site but totally ignore it when it shows exactly how worthless this statistic is.
It is intuitively obvious that guns do not actually cause violence -- but it is equally intuitively obvious that they make the violence that is committed more deadly.

It is also intuitively obvious that the earth is flat and that stars are tiny pinpoints totally unlike our sun. Lets step away from intuitively obvious facts and deal with real facts. Take a look at the statistics I provided for a glimpse into how the real world works.
The gun control movement, on the other hand, distracts from the real causes of violence -- poverty, paranoia, the "war on drugs" and antisexuality.

Prove any of these are causes for gun violence with legal firearms. The war on drugs is a cause for gun violence with illegal firearms, but then again, illegal firearms weren't really the point of Trolling for Columbine.
The most shameful part of the ongoing attacks against Moore is that these answers have been all but ignored by his critics.

Then show us how much better you are with these critics, please quit using your bullshit arguements.
But perhaps the campaign against Moore is really motivated by another reason. His next project has the working title "Fahrenheit 9/11: The temperature at which freedom burns", and he intends to launch it shortly before the next US presidential election.

And perhaps the campaign against Moore is really because he's a humanoid and there's a vast right winged anti-humanoid campaign going on. Hey, if you're going to make up conspiracy theories with no proof at all why make them small conspiracy theories?

"Fuck... may be appropriate in certain venues... (Florida Elections Commission, speed eating contests, public defender offices) and may be inappropriate in
Outside Looking In (4.35 / 17) (#225)
by hengist on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 01:23:34 AM EST

I'm very much on the outside of this looking in. By that, I mean that I'm not an USian (I'm a New Zealander), and while I have little experience with the problems that Moore discusses in his films, I do follow the discussions about them when I am able to.

One thing that has struck me is the extraordinary viciousness of US politics. This appears everywhere, from the floor of Congress, to sites like K5: whenever "Left" and "Right" come together to discuss an issue, (virtual) blood flows. It is as if they regard themselves as mortal enemies, rather than political rivals. It seems sometimes that Republicans treat the Democrats even worse than they treat al Qaeda: they seem to think that all of the states/countrys/worlds ills would be cured if the liberal/socialist/godless Democrats no longer existed. Meanwhile, the Democrats shriek on about the heartless, evil, Christian Republicans

The funny thing is, from the outside looking in, there isn't that much difference between the Democrats and Republicans: from a NZ point of view, they are both extremely right-wing.

When did US politics get so bloody? You're dealing with your political rivals, not the anti-Christ.

There can be no Pax Americana

My Three Points. . . (3.00 / 6) (#230)
by Fantastic Lad on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 02:08:45 AM EST

1. Despite popular outcry against gun violence, which I personally feel is A Bad Idea in any circumstance, (Violence, that is), the 'Gun Nuts' do have a point. --It's much harder to clamp down total control on a populace when that populace is armed to the teeth. While I doubt very much that Moore is insincere in his concerns and explorations into the social 'enigma' of why the U.S. is so messed up, but the fact of the matter is that a doped up, brain-washed and and dis-armed public is without any doubt a much preferred beast than are self-aware cattle with machine guns. -At least to the sort of 'people' who are currently running the show. --Of course, the NRA itself is in all likelyhood a ground-up design which serves to funnel opposition to population control into all the wrong sectors, and fill people's heads with all the wrong thoughts. But that's beside the point.

2. I have yet to see a popular televised news cast in the U.S. which isn't manipulative, manipulated, lazy or just plain stupid. I have yet to see an education channel 'documentary' on any politically or socially sensitive subject which isn't similarly flawed with bias, poor information or deliberate mis-information. Michael Moore is cut from the same cloth as the rest of America. Big surprise. --The difference is that he doesn't strike me as being greedy or motivated by bigotry and hate. And that's what makes him a perfect vehicle. --Cuz you see, guys like Moore are not allowed to have impact upon culture unless it serves the 'correct' purpose. Moore is honest in intent, if not method, though unfortunately, he is serving ends he probably doesn't understand.

And those ends would be. . ?

3. Part of the signal Moore is helping to send is not meant for Americans. It's meant for the rest of the world. --Much like the Very Wrong feeling the world is receiving from the Israeli war being waged against Palestinians, this message is designed to create certain reactions in the world community. --In this case, to fuel anti-American sentiment and propel humanity into to WWIII. It will be very interesting to watch how Fahrenheit 9/11 affects world opinion.

The problem of American Evil is certainly a problem, but it's just a subset. A performance piece on the world stage designed to lead us into other areas of behavior. --I often feel like I'm watching one of those old matinee, John Wayne westerns from the 30's, (the really old ones which played more like cartoons than films, where Wayne is a bright-faced young buck). --In those things, the bad guys had no hope of getting away with their crimes. They didn't think through their plans when they stole the deed to the gold mine, or fixed the rodeo, nor did they cover their tracks in a way which would stand the test of any sort of scrutiny. All they did was lie and create outrage in the viewer.

Thus, anybody who wasn't a kid at the ten cent matinee could immediately see that the logical series of cascading events would inescapably lead to the arrest of the Bad Guys, and, of course, to John Wayne being publicly patted on the shoulder and told what a good boy he was by the Mayor, (or whoever the Good Authority Figure happened to be). This stuff, was written for child-like minds. -Just as the current world play is. (All advertisers know that to get people to vote with their wallets, one must appeal to an average grade 4 intellect.)

"LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU!!!" The kids all cry at the Punch and Judy show. "NO FAIR! NO FAIR!"

Israel has no hope of getting away with what it is doing. All the Jews in Israel are going to get hurt, if not entirely wiped out, and nobody in the world community is going to lift a finger. And that's (part) of the whole point.

Similarly, the United States, on its home fronts, is going to be opposed by world military might. The Masters of the Universe don't like those pesky Westerners, --with all their independent thought, creativity, guns and individualism. (Though, deeply hampered as they are today.) Better to promote a world population of Chinese Asians, which are better adapted to doing what they are told. They'll make better slaves. But first we need to engineer a cartoon where the world wipes out all the contenders and welcomes a one-world government. Among other things. (Etc, Etc.)

Moore is still on the very first mile of the journey toward figuring out what the hell went wrong with America. Bowling for Columbine asks a lot of questions and offers little more than new questions. I have respect for Moore, if only because he is seeking and sharing his thoughts with the world. --I'm not going to write him off just because he's been caught bending facts in order to pad his point. (Happens all the time around K5!) Nor will I write him off just because he's unwittingly helping out the Bad Guys. That's just part of the learning process. Indeed, in this case, it's all welcome grist for the mill.

-FL

There's no gun violence in America. (1.76 / 13) (#232)
by American Minister of Information on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 02:51:21 AM EST

All americans are taught since childhood to use violence only to defend freedom, democracy and our way of life. Your shameless propaganda only serves to encourage terrorist by making them think there's dissent in the Land of the Free.

Mister Moore and you ceirtantly would benefit from counselling.

Come on, man. (3.36 / 11) (#237)
by SwampGas on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 03:27:56 AM EST

You mentioned you're from Germany...

I know Germans hate when the other countries (especially we US folk) bring up Hitler....but that's precisely what this is all about.  In Nazi Germany, people were afraid to do or say ANYTHING because the gestapo would just haul them off and shoot them.  No fair trial, jury or nothing.  That's what it's coming to in the US with this RIAA nonsense.  People are guilty before they even know what happened.  People in Nazi Germany were not allowed to own firearms, and therefore couldn't defend themselves when the government started doing wrong.  That's what these anti-gun nuts are trying to do in the US.

Regardless of what you read or think you know, criminals are CRIMINALS.  They don't care about laws.  You can pass a law saying NOBODY may own guns...yet THEY WILL STILL OBTAIN AND USE THEM.  By their own definition, laws will not stop criminals.

When you can promise me a world where I will not be in danger of being hurt, whether it be with guns, knives, bats, nuclear bombs, etc, THEN I will turn in my firearms and other defense mechanisms.  Until then, don't expect me to save your sorry ass in the local Qwik-E-Mart when someone comes and shoots the place up...you might end up sueing me for emotional distress because you saw me shoot the bad guy.

He may be right (3.00 / 12) (#265)
by Cackmobile on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 07:33:30 AM EST

or he may be wrong but at least he had the balls to stand up and say what a lot of people don't like to hear. THese questions need to be asked. WE can not just sit by and let them go unasked.

Excellent story! (3.62 / 16) (#268)
by gr00vey on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 08:05:15 AM EST

I am a Moore fan, becasue he has something most folks today seem to be lacking COMMON FUCKING SENSE. Sure he is sensationalist, but he raises very important points if we want to improve our society. Also, in bowling, he is NOT saying that more guns laws are the answer in fact, as he compares canidian per capita gun ownership versus US, he basically says laws are not the answer. I think the quote is "are we a nation of gun nuts, or just nuts". We have LESS guns per capita than the canadians, yet the manage to have dramtically less violence related to their guns. Perhaps it is because they are not spoiled little jingoists, like most of the US has become. I say that as a proud citizen, who is VERY UPSET at the way this country is going.

no respect (3.50 / 6) (#284)
by snitch on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 09:49:33 AM EST

whatever your views on Moore, doesn't it bother US folk that his film/documentary/whatever seems to resonate so strongly with non-US folk's views about them? the answer is probably a resounding 'no' and that's really why Moore is so succesful outside the US: you command power, but no respect. i'm sure that must be VERY irritating.

"Against his heart was a thesaurus bound in PVC. He smiled at the entrance guard." - Steve Aylett

One quick comment... (3.61 / 13) (#309)
by debillitatus on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 11:43:38 AM EST

This is a horribly biased polemic with a good helping of conspiracy-theoretic paranoia. (Other than that it's pretty good.)

I'm not going to get into much detail, mostly because godix did a pretty good job here.

But I would like to respond to one thing:

Certainly, Moore is one of the most talented filmmakers in the United States today...

Are you freakin' kidding me? Michael Moore is, at best, a troll. He is the liberal counterpart to Rush Limbaugh (or these days Ann Coulter). It is somewhat understandable that he is so popular; the left in the US has such poor spokemanship that he has been latched onto.

This is fine, it's a free country. And perhaps it is necessary for the left to have such a spokesman to get any support among the people. But as long as US liberals are giving any credence to a guy like Michael Moore, they have no bone to pick with the Rush Limbaughs of the world.

Damn you and your daily doubles, you brigand!

There is no gun violence in the US! (4.00 / 6) (#357)
by jope on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 01:58:09 PM EST

those tens of thousands of shot people were just shot in self-defense. However they obviously don't do it often enough. The US is still not a very safe place. People, don't be whimps! Protect yourself and your children. Those guns are not there for decoration! Use them!

Meh (2.33 / 6) (#407)
by darkseer on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 04:34:05 PM EST

Yes, the people of the US like guns, yes we kill each other with guns too. Why is this news? Why did the tradegy in Columbine happen? Gun control and teen violence are two distinct issues that touch on each other lightly. Why was it allowed to happen... social irresponsibility on the part of the parents/neighbors/comunity. They were able to obtain guns because they were easy to get which amplified the tradgity(sp). My take is guns should be easy to get and this incedent was inevitable due to the situation the school/parents/comunity created. In response to way the rest of the world views us, let me give a real life story. There was a model UN with college students from around the world. When propositions submitted to the counsoul describing the current model plight of the world, the students of most of the european countries response was "wow thats terrible". The americian students said "What can we do to remedy this?" My view: "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -Edmund Burke Said at a time when Europe had balls. Many, not all, europeans spend so much energy to critize our actions...yet nothing to help solve the problem. Let me drive this point home really soundly to our european critics, Your opinions have no meaning to us because we know you will not do anything to make them a reality. You are only willing to point out a wrong, you will not take action to correct it. Until you find the will to be the people you were and are actually willing to do somthing to help improve the state of the world, SHUT THE FUCK UP your nothing more than a nusciance and you have only yourselves to blame. P.S. Don't bother replying it only proves my point. If you want to prove me wrong go out and help make the world a better place. Either way I win.

Sad old Moore on Channel 4 (4.20 / 5) (#412)
by tyroneking on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 05:04:37 PM EST

Ain't free speech a wonderful thing;)
I was a fan of Moore until his UK shows on Channel 4; where he made 'humorous' asides to the UK public which he claimed his US audience could not see (in the more frquent US ad-breaks I guess). One of his asides was to encourage European women not to shave their underarms - he then went on to give a detail explanation of why this was such a good and health idea.
The sheer arrogance of these asides (i.e. US citizens are dumber than anyone else so they don;t deserve to hear him talk 'intellectual') and his sheer condescension in talking to women in the way that he did, really helped me to see his true colours.
As a standard bearer for the chattering classes, he certainly made his mark - but a serious film maker worthy of an award, I don't think so!

Michael who? (1.22 / 9) (#413)
by Rahyl on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 05:32:09 PM EST

Lol!

Guns should be given away in Church! (1.55 / 9) (#436)
by sellison on Thu Aug 14, 2003 at 09:45:11 PM EST

Good Christians need all the guns they can get to protect themselves from the vicious terrorists and evil doers that surrond us!

And what do you mean about the crusades? I can't believe you buy the revisionist/socialist lie that the crusaders were in it for money and power!

They were good, honest, god fearing Christians who went to fight the good fight to prevent the evildoing heathen tribes from slaughtering innocents and to bring the word of salvation to all those with the wit to hear it!

For goodness sake even the most villified Christians such as Cortez, were doing the Lord's work, do you really think that Mexico would like to go back to the good old days of slaughtering virgins with golden knives in hallucegenic pagan orgies of violence?

No, this Moore movie is jusr more of the same socialist/atheistic propaganda designed to make good, honest, Christian Americans feel guilty, sad and weak. We need to be strong to win this culture war, we need to be proud, and we need to hang on to our GOD given RIGHT to bear arms!


"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."- George H.W. Bush

Simply a discussion. (2.50 / 4) (#498)
by purephase on Fri Aug 15, 2003 at 09:21:18 PM EST

As godix pointed out:

"Also note the chance to be a repeat victim of crime in 1999 was higher in England & Wales, Scotland, Denmark, Netherlands, Poland, Sweden, Australia, and Canada than it was in America."

I realize the keyword repeat. Now, the data does not actually support or deny it, but here is a few hypotheses:

1. First time victims tend to arm themselves (be it either with a weapon or self-defence training) after their "first" run-in with violence (first being entirely subjective). The subsequent arming tends to difuse tense situations in the future thus lowering the chance of repeat acts.

2. Americans are more adept at adapting to violent situations than other cultures and races. They recognize a potential problem, and deftly avoid it.

3. Due to the high population there is less chance of joe-regular American actually being involved or victim of a violent act then in other countries of smaller populations but similar technological development and industrial strength.

However, a follow-up sentence suggests:

"... America has a higher number of crimes for the simple reason American has more people."

If it is a simple matter of proportion then I tend to side with suggestion 3 (above) as a probable reason for the repeat crime statistic.

That being the case (and I am not saying it is true in any way) then why are American's so gun-happy? If there is less chance of a repeat violent act (read: violent act in general) for joe-regular American then why carry a weapon?

Most, if not all gun advocates preach protection as the primary reason for arming oneself. If (and this is a broad inference) violent acts are less common to American citizens then other countries, the number of guns in America should be sitting around unused.

Statistics fail us once again though. They are not being unused. A Harvard study states that:

"This small study provides some evidence that guns may be used at least as often by family members to frighten intimates as to thwart crime, and that other weapons are far more commonly used against intruders than are guns.

So, just maybe (only maybe) guns are not the most effective weapon against home invasion, which is the primary reason for the defence claim (that I have been privy to anyway). Another statistic confirms this, when:

"By margins of at least 9 to 1, Americans do not believe that regular citizens should be allowed to bring their guns into restaurants, college campuses, sports stadium, bars, hospitals or government buildings." Link

Guns in the home are less effective than would be believed, and almost 90% of Americans surveyed feel less safe if regular citizens are allowed to carry weapons in the places listed above.

So, since this is almost entirely hypothetical then I urge discussion only. I have heard convincing arguments on both sides and I have been privy to violent acts with guns myself.

The only thing I know is that gun owners love their guns, and lefty apathists love their causes and righteous indignation.

In either case, there is clearly a problem somewhere that must be resolved. Strengthed laws for concealment, registration, and increased fines and criminal charges have not had the desired effect and people are being needlessly killed by guns that should in effect be sitting at home unloaded and locked away.

Fiction vs. non-fiction (2.50 / 4) (#564)
by onemorechip on Tue Sep 09, 2003 at 03:08:48 AM EST

I finally got around to seeing the documentary last night. At the end, all I could say was "wow". All my wife could say is, "I want to move to Canada".

I had hotlisted this article without reading it, so I could come back to it once I had seen the movie. I actually found the movie much more moderate in tone than I had come to expect, and I was surprised that Moore didn't try to place any blame on gun culture but on the paranoia that the media cultivates.

The David Hardy web page starts off with the claim that BfC is not a documentary since it is a work of fiction, and documentaries must be works of non-fiction. That claim is a non-starter. A Google glossary search on "fiction" produces such definitions as the following:

Imaginative literary, oral, or visual works representing invented, rather than actual, persons, places, and events. Some widely recognized types of fiction include mystery, romance, and adventure. http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/curriculum/languagearts/old/glossary.html

BfC clearly fails this definition since it represents actual persons, places, and events. I am aware of no definition of non-fiction that implies that a work of non-fiction can't be infused with the creator's point of view, or that precludes any editing of the source material (you can't create a quality feature-length movie without editing, period). I've never seen either Ann Coulter's or Michael Moore's books in the fiction section of my local bookstore, so I think my understanding of what fiction and non-fiction are is not unusual.

Given that the rest of the website is trying to shore up his premise that BfC is fiction, all the while ignoring the accepted definition of fiction, his web page is nothing more than a rant motivated by sour grapes syndrome.

And yes, I do realize that Moore's speech at the academy award invoked the word "fictitious" in a way that isn't consistent with the above definition. And that might be a valid point against Moore -- though not against the documentary -- except that Moore was speaking rhetorically, not argumentatively.
--------------------------------------------------

I did my essay on mushrooms. It's about cats.

BFC: Entertaining...and despicable (1.50 / 2) (#573)
by tcsenter on Sun Oct 05, 2003 at 10:33:26 AM EST

Moore portrays the NRA as an unethical, dishonest organization; he sees the paranoia and fear in the United States as a primary cause of violence, and he does not see gun ownership itself as a problem. His documentary is full of subtle humor, jaw-dropping dialogue and dark contrasts. All in all, it is an accurate portrayal of America's gun and violence culture.
lol! It would be interesting how "Bowling for Columbine" could remotely be any sort of accurate portrayal of America's gun and violence culture, since Moore never speaks of or examines any type of gun violence or 'culture' that would account for anything more than a statistically insignificant portion of America's gun violence statistics.

Moore examines a single school shooting to test his hypothesis, erroneously suggesting to his audience that this is representative of 'America's gun violence problem'. Not only are school shootings an insignificant contributor to gun violence statistics, they are NOT unique to the United States.

High profile public and school shootings have occurred and continue to occur periodically in France, Germany, the UK, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Canada and a dozen other countries.

The only other actual incident of gun violence to which Moore brings the audience's attention is another school shooting (Kayla Rolland and Buell Elementary), which Moore doesn't use in support of his hypothesis, but rather to attack welfare reform and the humanity of the National Rifle Association.

It seems to me that, if one wanted to advance a rather 'novel' hypothesis whose premise first holds that 1. a type of cancer is unique to the United State then 2. attempts to explain the underlying causes that make it unique to the United States, one would not build one's case entirely around a type of cancer that is NOT unique to the United States. Yet that is precisely what Moore does, in essence.

Moore never speaks of the fact the vast, overwhelming, disproportionate, majority of gun violence in the United States is ethnic street gang and illicit drug trade violence occurring in the blighted inner cities where minority populations predominated. It is overwhelmingly minority-on-minority violence.

The problems in the inner-city have nothing to do with "American culture", unless one believes that violent gang members and crack dealers are representative manifestations of 'American culture'. The vast swath of mainstream middle America to which I belong finds the inner city culture of violence and criminality positively foreign, as do the vast majority of Americans.

As John DiIulio argues, "America does not have a crime problem; inner city America has a crime problem." -- John J. DiIulio, "The Question of Black Crime," 117 THE PUBLIC INTEREST 3 (1994) also quoting the 1969 National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence

The City of Los Angeles is highly representative of the problem:

"Since the mid-1950s, the risk of homicide in the city of Los Angeles, California, has increased sixfold (1). The largest 10-year absolute increase (84.0%) occurred from 1970 to 1979, when rates rose from 12.5 per 100,000 population to 23.0/100,000."

"The increasing homicide rate in Los Angeles during the 1970s can be attributed almost entirely to changes in homicide rates among black and Hispanic males. Rates for white non-Hispanic males were only slightly higher in the latter half of the decade than in the first half, and there was no consistent upward trend. The rates for white non-Hispanic, black, and Hispanic females did not change substantially." -- Homicide in Los Angeles, 1970-1979; Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Feb. 7, 1986:35(5);61-5

In 1993, the homicide rate per capita for the United States was 9.5. In the same year, the per capita homicide rate of black males between the ages of 18~24 was

    183.4!!
- nearly 20x the US homicide rate. (FBI/UCR 1993)

In what is alleged to be an 'examination' of America's gun violence problem, how could Moore possibly overlook - never even mention - this crisis of inner city black youths being lost to gang violence? Didn't even get a blip on Moore's radar screen.

Instead, Moore implicates 'white people who buy guns to protect themselves from dark people' (e.g. 'the NRA and its ilk'), whom do not contribute significantly to our national gun violence statistics. Persons who carry handguns for protection in the more than 30 US States that permit citizens to carry firearms have arrest rates well below the general population in all categories of crime. So much for the 'gun culture' excuse.

Moore completely misses all the real issues behind America's 'gun violence problem' and as a consequence squanders an opportunity to do some real good. Instead of using his talents to advance public discourse on the real problems facing impoverished and broken urban families whose children have little where else to turn for support and fellowship than violent ethnic gangs, who often are compelled to join gangs because they're terrified of the consequences for refusing; who have extremely few models of lawful and responsible gun use but instead are exposed only to criminal and reckless models of gun misuse; Moore victimizes them even further by exploiting their tragic and overwhelming contribution to US gun violence statistics, not for the goal of raising awareness or encouraging solutions, but to prosecute his radical leftwing agenda of hatred and enrich himself in the process.

Way to go 'champion of the common man'.

This is no doubt a tragedy that has real consequences for real lives. The vexing problems facing broken urban families is not new. Dozens and dozens of leftist 'big city' mayors promising relief to their broken inner-city constituents have come and gone over the decades with little progress to speak of. Most have done little to bring relief or restore hope. Beyond paying lip-service to the plight of these broken communities come election time, nothing really changes.

Moore squandered an opportunity to light a fire under the national conscience, to rekindle the public debate, and be a voice for those who have been all but forgotten or ignored even by many well-to-do blacks that have escaped the paralyzing grip of shattered communities. Instead, Moore thought that saving black families was not as important as demonizing a 132 year-old organization founded by Klan-opposers and attacking the humanity of a man who was picketing restaurants and marching with Dr. King when Moore was still eagerly awaiting the arrival of his first pubic hair.

Which further reinforces what many of us have known for years; contrary to its claims, the left is never as concerned about what it can do for victims as for what victims can do for the left.



A defense of Michael Moore and "Bowling for Columbine" | 577 comments (557 topical, 20 editorial, 1 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!