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[P]
Extreme Body Modification

By McBain in Culture
Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 02:06:00 AM EST
Tags: Focus On... (all tags)
Focus On...

Warning: this story contains disturbing, graphical and un-worksafe links. Click them with caution.

Superficial body modification has become, to a certain extent, acceptable and mainstream. While tattoos and body piercings were once markings of outsiders and special subcultures, celebrities and the public now display them as the latest fashion accessory (although they can still damage your employment prospects). It is clear that such modifications have become commodified and are no longer regarded as deviant, but merely as another consumer item.

However many subcultures still exist that take the idea of body modification to extremes. Genital removal and limb amputation are examples of the hardcore, permanent body modification that members of these subcultures aspire to. These practices go far beyond the bounds of what society deems as acceptable body modification. While the mainstream may view this behaviour with revulsion and bafflement, it raises the interesting question of what is and what is not acceptable body modification in today's liberal society.


Nullification

A nullo [WORK-UNSAFE, DISTURBING LINK] ( 2) is a man who chooses to have his genitalia, both testicles and penis, removed for aesthetic and sexual purposes. It is an extreme body modification of the highest order. If an ordinary man was nullified, it would be unsurprising if they became extremely depressed or tried to commit suicide. Male identity is strongly linked to primary sexual features. Additionally, the testosterone produced by the testicles has a powerful influence on male behaviour, regulating moods and providing libido.

In this [Warning: disturbing link] confronting interview, a 26 year old man describes how he came to be a nullo. His story is a disturbing tale of masochism and DIY surgery but the man is obviously pleased with the outcome. Although the interview may be a fake, such DIY operations are not uncommon or impossible; for example, this equipment was designed for exactly that purpose.

There are many different reasons that a man may be wish to remove their genitalia.

  • Excessive libido. Castration has been used as a punishment for sex offenders. Some men are simply born with an extremely high libido, forcing to masturbate excessively and causing marital stress.
  • Chronic testicle pain.
  • Religion and culture. Eunuchs have often held crucial roles in various societies. Eunuchs were used to protect harems in Arabic and Asian countries; in some cases their proximity to the rulers gave them great power. Castration was common in 17th and 18th century Italy, used to produce the famous castrati, valued for their high-pitched singing voice. The Hijras of Pakistan and India are examples of contemporary culturally accepted castration.
  • Calm. A commonly reported result of castration is a Zen-like calm. On the other hand, a lack of testosterone can cause mood swings and depression. Testosterone patches can stabilise the mood (as well as restoring libido).
  • Fetishes. S&M fantasies often revolve around the utter domination of a partner. Nullo fantasies involve the cooking and consumption of testicles, nonconsensual castration and other domination fantasies.
  • Transgenderism. The removal of male sexual features is a major step towards assuming a female appearance. In this case they are not technically nullos.
  • Nullification. A "true" nullo does not wish to take on a feminine appearance like transgenders do, they merely seek the removal of the entire male genitalia for the "smooth" appearance.


Limb Amputation and Body Dysmorphic Disorder

Limb amputation is another extreme body modification, also of the highest order. Limbs are large, crucial parts of the body that are necessary for everyday living. To have a limb removed will cause a major disability that will permanently hinder an individuality's mobility or hand skills.

Psychiatrists believe that limb amputation is not a sexual fetish or psychosis but a symptom of body dysmorphic disorder, a crippling, but largely unheard of and undiscussed, mental disorder related to Obssessive Compulsive Disorder. BDD sufferers obsess about minor flaws or imagined defects, usually involving the head and face. It can lead to social phobia and reclusion as sufferers avoid contact with others to hide their imagined deformities.

Sufferers feel that their bodies just aren't "right", usually due to a particular feature. This may be a facial or body feature, even a limb. They often attempt to get surgery done to "correct" the feature, up to and including amputation. If surgery is not available, they may attempt it themselves. This puts surgeons in a difficult position. If they do not perform the operation, the BDD sufferer may be so obsessed with the offending limb or body feature that they may end up performing dangerous surgery upon themselves, which could lead to death.

This is the fascinating case of identical twins who had the arm from one amputated and attached to the other. Similarly, they used the tip of one's ring finger to extend the other's ring finger.

Other body modifications

Trepannation is a practice dating back to neolithic times of surgically opening a hole in the skull. This is believed to be evidence of early surgical practice to relieve pressure after cranial fractures. It may also have been done by shamans to induce hallucinations.

Suspension involves embedding hooks into the flesh and hanging people. It is not a permanent body modification, but is both painful and spectacular.

Transgendered people have a conflict between their gender identity and physical appearance. Many wish to resolve this via operations upon their sexual features.

Corsets are used to create an exaggeratedly miniscule waist. They were commonly used in Europe until the 20th century.

Branding is the process of burning the skin to mark it with images or words, just like tattooing.

Another category of "body modifier" are self-mutilators, who may cut and scar themselves repeatedly. This can be a result of psychiatrics disorder such as depression or borderline personality disorder.

Conclusion

Extreme body modification, while seeming unnecessary, painful and dangerous, appeals to a surpising number of people. Body modifiers desire to change their body so strongly that they perform painful, dangerous and irreversible procedures upon themselves often without the support or knowledge of others. The reasons may be varied and strange, but they are always real and never trivial - few people perform major surgery upon themselves simply upon a whim.

Modern society prides itself on it's tolerance and diversity. Most people have no problem accepting others with differences, as long as those differences resulted from forces beyond their control, such as genetics, accidents or diseases. Insulting racial minorities and the disabled is considered unacceptable and immoral, and rightly so. Yet it is clear that we have much more difficulty coming to terms with others who wish to make themselves different of their own accord. Is this a double standard?

A person wheelchair-bound because they amputated their own legs should hardly be given the same sympathy and respect as a similar accident victim. People who modify their body so they are unable to function in regular society should be made aware of the damage they are going to do to themselves and their family, friends and loved ones. But in cases where the person does themselves and others no disabling injury, should society be so quick to judge and condemn?

In either case, it is an important and current moral and social issue. Tattooing and piercing have [PDF] unprecedented popularity in western society, so it's reasonable to expect that future society may feature even more bizarre and extreme body modification. We enter an age in which genetic technology, digital/neuronal interfaces, advanced plastic surgery and even nanotechnology could mean that the human form becomes more diverse than ever. In a few decades, people may look at back at today's extreme body modifiers and see them as pioneers. Modifications which seemly bizarre and extreme to us today could be commodified and made into consumer items in the future world. And perhaps society needs people like nullos and self-amputees to remind us that beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

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Poll
Acceptable body modification?
o None 25%
o Circumcision 9%
o Tattoos 15%
o Facial piercings 1%
o Body piercings 10%
o Cosmetic surgery 15%
o Genital modification 6%
o Limb amputation (Yeah, Baby!) 15%

Votes: 132
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o body modification
o nullo
o 2
o confrontin g interview
o this
o equipment
o different reasons
o punishment
o castrati
o Hijras
o Limb amputation
o body dysmorphic disorder
o difficult position
o This
o Trepannati on
o Suspension
o Transgende red
o operations
o Corsets
o Branding
o unpreceden ted popularity
o Also by McBain


Display: Sort:
Extreme Body Modification | 286 comments (201 topical, 85 editorial, 1 hidden)
Let me just be the first to say... (3.80 / 5) (#9)
by zipper on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 12:48:04 AM EST

Freaks.

How's that for understanding?

---
This account has been neutered by rusty and can no longer rate or post comments. Way to go fearless leader!
Ugh (3.30 / 13) (#13)
by NaCh0 on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 02:11:16 AM EST

Just what we need...even more men w/o balls.

Maybe we could pass a law to prohibit nullos outside of California and Europe.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.

But... (1.10 / 20) (#16)
by psychologist on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 06:10:17 AM EST

Americans don't have any balls either, does that make them nullos too?

WARNING: (4.30 / 10) (#17)
by danni on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 06:59:07 AM EST

do NOT read the interview with the nullo. however interesting it maybe, if you are like me you will find it extremely disturbing. i read it when i was tired, from the b3ta newsletter, and then i ended up crying myself to sleep. seriously DO NOT read it. be careful this has also appeared at metafilter etc... do NOT click on it, you will never be able to remove the thoughts of this from your head.

Amusing evolutionary dead-ends (3.90 / 11) (#35)
by Pac on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 09:46:55 AM EST

Humans are probably the sole species in the planet with conscious knowledge of how evolution works. The prude and the outraged should let science inform their feellings. There is little need for bans, witch-hunts, laws. This kind of extreme behaviour is self-defeating and obviously non-hereditary.

Have you noticed you don't find birds with a preference for laying eggs in snake nests? You also don't find rodents feeding on eagle nests leftovers.And you can't find many zebras who like to play with lions. Why is that? Because all those animals with the behaviours listed above died without leaving progeny. Whichever genetical material gave them this tendencies is now enclosed by an enormous recessive barrier.

Among the 6 billion humans alive there must be a vastly insignificant number of people with tendencies to what is described in this article. This extremes are usually reached through a combination of many very rare recessives and a very strange enviroment. The complexity of the transmission mechanism garantees those genes are almost never really lost, but it also makes sure they rarely manifest themselves.

So, we don't need new laws or new religions, we don't even need to think of the children. The children won't take this as an example. Just give selection a hundred thousand years (or five) and this will go away...

Evolution doesn't take prisoners


Hmm... (4.75 / 4) (#39)
by reklaw on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 11:01:51 AM EST

I'm pretty sure that first link (the interview) is entirely made up, but still.

It's one of my most closely held values that, as long as it doesn't adversely affect others, people can do whatever makes them happy. I can't say this is something I generally enjoyed hearing about (in fact I was quite amazed how just text had the same physical effect as goatse or tubgirl -- a feeling of near-sickness), but I would never presume to judge or attempt to stop these people. It is, after all, their life.
-

Reading your article (4.20 / 5) (#66)
by mami on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 06:28:08 PM EST

and being too scared to click on any link, I have the feeling that the author engages also in a fair amount of mind modification over the issue of body modification.

It suggests that people, who don't think it's unprecedented popular to modify (mutilate?) your body, are narrow-minded brains, who have no appreciation for the fact that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Self-mutiliation scares me and I can't help to think that self-modification is also intended to scare, even if it's hurting noone else than the person engaging in self-mutilation.

I am scared to meet a person who had the courage to undergo something very painful for no other reason than to be different. It's a statement. I am not clear though, what it wants to say to me.

Why would one suffer that pain to become different? Does it mean there was no other way for the person to become "somebody or something more desirable or different"?

I guess the subject is too difficult for me to think through. I am curious what you have to say.

+1 FP


That nullo 'interview' (4.00 / 4) (#75)
by nobbystyles on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 08:55:42 PM EST

It's the biggest POS on the interweb evar. But you should read the comments after it, reminds me Adequacy in the good 'ol days. Hilarous...

The 'hijras' of India... (5.00 / 6) (#83)
by splitpeasoup on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 10:58:43 PM EST

...are for the most part kidnapped and forcibly castrated without their consent. This takes place in crude surgeries that kill a large percentage of those who undergo them. Hijra gangs target good-looking or effeminate teenagers or youth. Once they are castrated and brainwashed, they become part of and help propagate the (quite well-organized) hijra gangs. They have very few options at this point anyway, since not even their own families would want them back.

'Culturally accepted' - hardly. Hijras are treated with revulsion and disgust. They beg for money, but people only pay them to make the embarrassing creatures go away. The only exception to this is at weddings, where their presence is sought as being conducive to good luck.

-SPS

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

Write in vote: Why am I choosing? (none / 0) (#86)
by Koutetsu on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 11:22:29 PM EST

And what does my 'acceptance' matter to someone who's having their tongue pierced/genitalia nullified/arms amputated?

m(y) d.n.e. Me in terms of You does not exist.
What ever floats youre boat (3.50 / 2) (#87)
by monkeymind on Sat Jul 26, 2003 at 11:38:26 PM EST

If the people doing this are adults and judged rational, let them. If it makes them feel better about themselves or accept who they think they are or want to be, who am I to stop them.

Some want a fast car to make them complete, others a trophy partner. The quest for the perfect nose, face or body will make some spend there entire lives in the quest. Either by working to make their money to pay for surgery (I have a girlfriend in uni who was saving up for Lypo and nothing I or anybody else said could convince her she was great as she was), excessive gym or diets etc.

I don't see much difference, if they can convince the surgeon to do it and they have the cash, so be it.

I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it.

I don't know why people complain about the.. (4.00 / 6) (#89)
by synik on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 12:05:18 AM EST

..nullo interview being gross.

I read it while eating a bowl of pasta.

---
The human race has suffered for centuries and is still suffering from the mental disorder known as religion, and atheism is the only physician that will be able to effect a permanent cure. -- Joseph Lewis

I don't think self-injury belongs in here (4.50 / 2) (#91)
by Kasreyn on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 12:48:34 AM EST

People do body modification to change their external self-image. People do self-injury for a totally different reason (though there are several of them). A common one is, they find the pain of physical injury takes their mind off the stress and mental pain of their lives. As such, self-injury isn't really caused by a desire to change the way you look. It's just a side-effect. The actual goal in self-injury is the pain and damage, not the way it alters appearance.

Otherwise quite a good read, as far as a beginner's guide goes. +1 Section.


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
Btw, re: circumcision (poll) (3.71 / 14) (#92)
by Kasreyn on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 12:52:18 AM EST

If done on a consenting adult, it is body modification.

If done on a child, it is genital mutilation and child abuse.

TY, HAND.


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
Transgenderism? (3.80 / 5) (#99)
by locke baron on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 04:27:41 AM EST

I'm not entirely convinced that SRS belongs in the 'extreme bodmodding' category, and here's why: Transsexuals don't do it for shock value. Gender dysphoria is a known medical condition, and SRS is one of the few known effective treatments. That said, it's probably in a similar vein to amputations for the treatment of BDD.

(Side note: while writing this, I discovered that there's an extreme bodmodder out there who shares my real name, modulo one letter. All this, while I, a transsexual, debates wheter SRS is bodmodding or not. How strikingy apropos.)

Micro$oft uses Quake clannies to wage war on Iraq! - explodingheadboy

Some more examples of EBM (5.00 / 2) (#108)
by McBain on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 06:34:43 AM EST

WARNING NSFW, DISTURBING LINKS - CLICK WITH CAUTION

No hands - a nullo who's also into amputation.

The toecutter - speaks for itself, really.

An interview with a eunuch.

---
Sorry. I can't seem to find that sig.

This stuff is hardly extreme (4.37 / 8) (#123)
by the on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 11:26:56 AM EST

They're almost all modifications to surface features - like modding your PC by replacing the case. Where are the people rewiring their brains and breathing methane?

--
The Definite Article
EBM makes baby jesus cry (4.00 / 5) (#125)
by zephc on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 02:04:56 PM EST

Seriously, thinking about this stuff makes me cringe, and not many things do.  I wish there was a Fairly Oddparents or Spongebob marathon today, to help me scrub my brain of this stuff.

I'm surprised you havent mentioned (4.00 / 2) (#126)
by phraggle on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 03:07:04 PM EST

I read recently that "tongue splitting" is the latest body modification craze. This is where the tongue is split down the middle to make the tongue look like a serpents tongue. The tongue splitting FAQ gives some more information.

Uuuuuurrrrrgghhhhhhh!!!!! (2.00 / 3) (#128)
by mirleid on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 04:17:10 PM EST

+1FP

Chickens don't give milk
-1 doesn't begin to describe (2.68 / 16) (#132)
by jjayson on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 05:04:52 PM EST

Disguisting. Saying the nullo link is "disturbing" is a horrible understatement. Reading about 2 pages down to the castration part, I started to shake, became queasy, and then had to literally go throw-up in the bathroom. I can't even adjust my balls they are so sensitive to the imaginary pain. Fuck that. I would give this a -100 if I could. Fucking perverts invading the site.
--
"Fuck off, preferably with a bullet, if you can find one that's willing to defile itself by being in your head for a split second." - Now, don't hold back. by losthalo,
07/27/2003 05:36:28 PM EST (4.00 / 3)
  • yeah by Bill Melater, 07/27/2003 09:38:09 PM EST (4.00 / 2)
  • Don't be such a p***y. by V, 07/28/2003 01:30:31 AM EST (3.88 / 9)
  • One of my co-workers (4.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Tatarigami on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 06:06:05 PM EST

    ...has an inspirational message tattooed on his forearm so that every time he reaches for something he sees a little reminder of why he's given up drinking.

    Not exactly extreme, I know. Not even body modification in the sense this article is talking about, but I thought it might be interesting to bring up an example of non-decorative, purposeful tattooing.

    • Hey... by livus, 07/27/2003 08:14:35 PM EST (3.50 / 2)
      • Nah by Tatarigami, 07/27/2003 08:49:01 PM EST (3.50 / 2)
    • which phrase is it? [nt] by fae, 07/27/2003 09:58:58 PM EST (1.50 / 2)
    If you cut off your balls... (2.71 / 7) (#143)
    by Stick on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 08:09:52 PM EST

    How the hell are you meant to piss?


    ---
    Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
    -1 Too N'Sync-centric [n|t] (1.87 / 8) (#146)
    by bigbtommy on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 08:29:13 PM EST


    -- bbCity.co.uk - When I see kids, I speed up
    Dilbert - Eunuch programmers (4.33 / 3) (#151)
    by Seth Finkelstein on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 09:41:20 PM EST

    I'm reminded of this classic Dilbert strip:

    "We need some eunuch programers" ...

    -- Seth Finkelstein

    I looked at that first website. (2.50 / 2) (#152)
    by debacle on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 09:51:22 PM EST

    There's a guy with a split in his glans WTF?

    And the whole plating and nail thing made me think of the Phyrexians (If you don't know who they are, don't worry about it).

    Are we all destined to become Borg?

    God I hope not.


    It tastes sweet.

    Lest you forget.. (1.43 / 16) (#155)
    by Namagomi on Sun Jul 27, 2003 at 10:37:43 PM EST

    the internet's most popular body modification[NWS]

    ----
    There is no #nekomimi cabal.
    Shit I had a very unsettling experience (3.00 / 5) (#159)
    by arvindn on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 01:30:18 AM EST

    I read the article about the twins who switched an arm. I've never considered myself squeamish, so I was rather shocked when this happened:

    I'd reached the part about the finger, when the blood started draining from my head and I was feeling very faint. Soon I was seeing stars. Somehow I managed to logout and get out of the room (all the while seeing nothing but stars) after which I gulped down a glass of water and talked about it with another guy and then I was okay.

    At the time of reading it I was running a temperature and hadn't eaten in a long time, I don't think I would have reacted that badly if not for that, but still it was very unsettling.

    BTW, I'm a liberal and these people have a right to do whatever they want with themselves and everything, but its stupid to pretend that those who amputate their limbs don't have severe mental/psychological disorders.

    So you think your vocabulary's good?

    We are individuals! (4.71 / 7) (#167)
    by causticmtl on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 04:28:02 AM EST

    Everyone wants to be special.

    If you can't juggle, cover you body in tattoos. If you can't play guitar in a punk rock band, split your dick in two! It's the same thing ... just pick the one that demands less practise!

    Like I really care.

    The only thing that impresses me about all of this is how people can become so consumed by the need to feeling apart from those around them that they mutilate themselves to such an extent.

    Putting on your underwear will be more exhilirating! Going to the washroom and cleaning yourself becomes an event!

    ... woo-f*cking-hoo ...

    Suspension? (5.00 / 3) (#173)
    by gclef on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 07:12:55 AM EST

    hmm...I've actually been to a "suspension party" recently (okay a few months ago).  It was strange, no doubt about it, but I would not put suspensions in the same catagory as limb removal.  There was no permanent damage done to any of the folks who went up (they were very careful about infection and weight-bearing limits of the hooks), so the only evidence that these folks had done it was in their heads and on their cameras.  

    To me, anyway, that puts suspension in a catagory of "odd, but not that out-of-control", unlike, say, cutting a hole in your own head.  (Of course, you do desensitize to the whole experience after watching 4 or 5 people in a row get hooks put in their backs and get raised into the air by them.)

    Disturbing propaganda (3.33 / 3) (#177)
    by cerpinokus on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 09:33:45 AM EST

    Not easily shocked I read your article with great interest, but shouldn't the line be drawn stating that "Yet it is clear that we have much more difficulty coming to terms with others who wish to make themselves different of their own accord. Is this a double standard?"
    The article is no longer an observation, but questions people who sincerly believe man should not temper with the abilities he has. Living is about gaining abilities in a cultural context, not crippling the few one is born with.
    Unlike some other posters I disagree with any statement saying people are free to do with themselves whatever they like. It is a wrongfull conclusion of focusing on the individual. Everyone is still part of a social group (however boring that may sound) and disregarding the responsibility to that group is neglecting the foundation of today's world and culture. In recent years more and more articles in newspapers have a way of bending the rules from the pure philosophy to the bare existence of the naked human life. Examples of good and bad are misused to facilitate the justification of abnormal behaviour.
    I can only kindly ask to be more aware of the influence media has on the thinking of it's public.


    Legally this is an interesting area (4.00 / 2) (#180)
    by nebbish on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 10:00:10 AM EST

    Laws (and enforcement) to regulate self mutilation seem sensible from a health and safety point of view, but repressive of personal liberty. Im not totally sure what the laws that cover this are in Europe and the States, but I get the impression there is little enforcement.

    Its a hard choice, and I have the unusual notion that the legal grey area surounding it is actually a desirable thing, letting people get on with what they want to do to their bodies through illegal surgery - surgery that I don't think any responsible society could actually legalise.

    I find it interesting that there are areas of life like this that law just finds too complicated to deal with.

    ---------
    Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

    These people are just morons (4.55 / 9) (#183)
    by lukkk on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 10:15:31 AM EST

    But I wonder if this is how our parents feel about tattoos.

    "But mom, all the other kids had their dicks amputated too!"
    "No Billy, why don't you take a tattoo or piercing instead?"
    "Tattoos and piercings are so 1900's!"

    I want my testosterone (3.75 / 4) (#186)
    by slon! on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 11:01:17 AM EST

    Thank God the gene that makes people remove their balls is either recessive or they do it before spawning another miscreant. I don't fancy idea being the only one with balls <g>.

    Honestly, I don't care what they do with their bodies, after all it is THEIR body. But I want my testosterone, it makes me fuck girls, forces me drive my car extremly fast and recklessly and do other stupid things. Definitely zen-like calm isn't my ideal.


    --
    It is right to believe in the need to be free.

    At first... (3.33 / 3) (#188)
    by CodeWright on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 11:15:53 AM EST

    ...this squicked me out until my vision started to become obscured by swirling blackout patterns.

    I was all set to denounce this as the foulest sort of moral relativist madness in its advocacy of horrible self-disfigurement...

    ...but then I asked myself what I would do if a long term memory annex chip could be implanted in the skull, or a set of super-jumping synthetic legs. Without a doubt, I would want those pieces of technology grafted to my flesh...

    ...even though it would, by nature, involve a self-trepanation or double-limb amputation.

    Even though my own decision to go under the knife would be motivated by an intention to enhance my capabilities rather than some twisted personal aesthetic goal, it certainly curtails much criticism of the latter... at least from anyone interested in cybernetic enhancement.

    --
    "Jumpin Jesus H. Christ riding a segway with a little fruity 1 pint bucket of Ben and Jerry's rainbow fairy-berry crunch in his hand." --
    Body modification is nothing... (1.44 / 9) (#191)
    by Robert Hamburger on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 12:32:59 PM EST

    ...because ninjas have the REAL ULTIMATE POWER!!! Anybody who thinks body modification is better than ninjas better get a life right now or they will be gifted with the ULTIMATE body modification, ninjas will chop your head off!!!

    It's an easy choice, if you ask me.

    ---
    "Ninjas are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants." -Robert Hamburger

    Learn something new every day... (4.00 / 5) (#193)
    by avdi on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 01:25:14 PM EST


    Limbs are large, crucial parts of the body that are necessary for everyday living. To have a limb removed will cause a major disability that will permanently hinder an individuality's mobility or hand skills.

    You don't say?

    --
    Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir

    Ah, decadence (4.33 / 9) (#196)
    by avdi on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 01:47:33 PM EST

    It's amazing the things people will turn their minds to once they don't have the day-to-day struggle of survival to occupy them.  Somehow I just can't imagine one of my primitive ancestors moping about, unable to get up the nerve to skewer a mammoth because he's too preoccupied with how unsightly his left nut is.  I have nothing against decadence; in fact I view the fact that we have the time for such increasing amounts of silliness as a good measure of our progress.  But I have to laugh sometimes at how more and more things become virtual "necessities" as we plod our way up Maslow's heirarchy...

    Personally, I don't have a problem with what people do to themselves.  I may regard them as morons, but they have a right to fsck with their own bodies.

    Politically I think there's a limit to how much their "rights" need to be protected - no one who whacks of their own limbs should then be able to demand a job that requires a full set of limbs on the grounds of equal hiring laws.  And in a society with government-funded healthcare, I think it's perfectly reasonable to outlaw some forms of EBM, since cutting off part of your own body virtually garauntees that you're going to be a drain on the system for years to come.  Which is yet another argument for keeping government out of healthcare.

    --
    Now leave us, and take your fish with you. - Faramir

    Damn (4.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Big Sexxy Joe on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 01:51:11 PM EST

    I thought we locked up people who were dangers to themselves rather than allow surgeons to help them hurt themselves.

    I suppose it raises interesting questions about how much freedom a severely distrubed person should get. I don't think I know the answer.

    I've always felt we should make illegal drugs legal and I suppose that allowing someone to take herion isn't that different from letting a someone amputate their own leg. A drug addict, by definition, has a psychological problem. But I think they should be allowed to take their drugs since we can't really stop them anyway. I don't know if we can stop people from cutting off their legs though.

    I'm like Jesus, only better.
    Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free grassroots news hour

    • surgeons? by modmans2ndcoming, 07/28/2003 06:06:37 PM EST (3.00 / 1)
    the "confronting inverview" (4.50 / 2) (#198)
    by Burning Straw Man on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 01:51:40 PM EST

    actually details the events of a crime which should send the perpetrators to prison. There are laws against tying people up and chopping off their penises, whether or not you think they really want you to or not, or whether they come to "accept" it later or not.

    And yes it made me very light-headed and I had to fight back some fairly powerful nausea.

    Again, if one guy is yelling at you to stop, and you cut off his penis, you should go to prison whether the victim wants to press charges or not -- the state can and should prosecute in this case.
    --
    your straw man is on fire...

    • Umm... by LilDebbie, 07/29/2003 03:58:11 PM EST (5.00 / 2)
    How likely is this? (none / 0) (#200)
    by jayemm on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 02:11:33 PM EST

    I read the interview with the twins.  I don't all that much regarding limb transplants between biological twins, but, how likely is it that you can snatch an arm, and stick in on your chest, without it atrophying?

    The picture was... interesting, but obviously could have been photo-shopped.  

    peas,
    j

    Tribal Roots (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by Rrotz on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 02:19:44 PM EST

    there aren't too many polynesian words that made it into the english language, the most prominent and widely used is "tatau." the tattooer was regarded as one of the highest ranking tribal members and commanded a large sum of monies for their body art. tattoing was highly ritualized, requiring weeks to complete all the while chanting and drumming accompanied the process. it is a rite of passage which the boys of the tribe went through to become a man. just some background on the whole body modification thing....something to make you go hmmmm.
    Independent Media Magazine www.indiemediamagazine.com Independent Media for Independent Minds
    'armless Fun? (4.00 / 3) (#202)
    by Blasted Operator From Heck on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 02:20:27 PM EST

    Maybe it's my cynical nature but I am a bit suspicious about the twin with the three arms...

    a) The surgery would be damn difficult.
    b) I can find no other reference to these people on the web.
    c) 'Dave' looks 'cut-n-paste' on the first of the pics.
    d) The pics are suspiciously low-res.
    d) The interview was posted April 1st 1999.

    Anyone have any 'proof' of this one?

    • Proof? by Wayfarer, 07/28/2003 05:58:36 PM EST (5.00 / 2)
    This makes me thankful that . . . (4.50 / 4) (#203)
    by Dphitz on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 02:23:41 PM EST

    I have plenty of hobbies to occupy my spare time.  And I realize that the male genitalia aren't the most beautiful things in the world but they help me pee, have lots of sex, watch football and play video games so I think I'll hang on to them.  I'm sure when the technology allows it, some of these people would love to simply be a floating brain in a jar.  At least it would be easier to store them on shelves in the looney house.


    God, please save me . . . from your followers

    self amputation and castration (4.22 / 9) (#207)
    by modmans2ndcoming on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 06:05:12 PM EST

    are effects of mental illness. it is sad that many people are looking at these sick people and considering them as a sub culture rather than mentally ill. I mean....are paranoid schizophrenia patients a sub culture?

    Reports of Happiness Unbelievable (3.50 / 2) (#209)
    by CoolName on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 07:15:34 PM EST

    To prevent suicide perhaps in very rare instances and after many roadblocks have been surmounted such operations should be performed. There is no limit to the strangeness of some people and to keep someone alive a few of these operations might be legitimately done. But regardless of what someone says no one who has a leg or legs amputated for cosmetic reasons is happy.

    "What does your conscience say? -- 'You shall become the person you are.'" Friedrich Nietzsche


    The twins is a JOKE, get real. (5.00 / 3) (#211)
    by mindstrm on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 07:26:13 PM EST

    It is a well known joke, (notice it was posted April 1st).

    The guy doesn't have three arms, and doesn't have an alien finger.  Neither of those is within the realm of conventional medicine.. though I'm sure a blood supply could be rigged up to an arm, it would certainly not be as they describe.. same goes for the finger. It would also not function.

    I'm not basing this on the posting date only; I recall when this was posted, and the magazine clearly revealed it to be a joke.

    From someone who has felt these feelings... (4.66 / 6) (#212)
    by Jafafa Hots on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 07:29:59 PM EST

    Hi.
    I'm wondering just how much of this may be due to a chemical imbalance in the brain.

    The reason I say this is because I've had these thoughts, to some lesser extent, and in some cases I'm positive they were caused by psych meds.

    Ever since I was 11, I've wanted to have a genital piercing. An ampallang, to be specific. I haven't had it done, but still think about it often. That's about the most extreme as far as what might be considered in the "normal" range.

    But when I was on psych meds prescribed for supposed Bipolar disorder, I started acting very strangely and having odd thoughts.
    I believe this was mostly due to a feel of "deadness" inside, I couldnt feel any emotion whatsoever. I started using street drugs to try to feel SOMETHING.
    My doctors resisted letting me get off the meds, I was hospitalized 3 times, each time they added more meds making things worse.

    Eventually I got to the point where I started cutting myself. I felt a huge compulsion to cut into my arm. I had the urge to partially dissect it.
    When I found myself cutting and not being satisfied with the blade I was using, and making plans to go buy sharper intruments to cut myself with, I checked into a hospital.

    That just make things worse, more meds.
    Eventually I just decided to go it on my own, and despite my doctors objections, I stopped the meds. I feel much better, and I don't have the desire to cut myself anymore.

    I still think about piercing to some degree, though would settle for earlobes at least for starters. And I think about getting a tattoo, but thats about it.

    Where does this come from? I don't know. Clearly some was caused by the brain chemicals they had me on... but I have always had certain thoughts... figured they were normal. FOr instance, while I didn't WANT an amputation, I often would think about how cool it would be, if you NEEDED one, leg for instance, to keep the bones. I know I would specifically request at least a section on leg bone, perhaps to have carved, or scrimshaw... or fashion a pendant or ring.

    I once saw a young man missing both legs, wearing shorts, and his prosthetic legs were amazing, he was running around, dashing into a store from his car, and seemed more fit and energetic and mobile than most people with "regular" legs.

    That technology amazes me. Imagine what they can do if they get beyond the psychological need to have prosthectics somewhat reminiscent of the real thing... perhaps spring loaded legs for incredible running or leaping?

    If I needed an arm amputated, the hell with a lousy plastic rendition of a human hand. If it has to be fake, I'd want HIGH TECH.
    I'd want a cordless rechargeable arm with a removable hand, storage compartments, drill bits, a socket set, maybe a PDA in the side, what have you.

    reminds me of grunge (5.00 / 4) (#214)
    by Lenny on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 07:47:04 PM EST

    there will be a backlash. body mods, tattoos, etc were once fairly unique. Now they're part of pop culture. That makes me laugh. Those people who thought they were so special and different helped give birth to a popular movement. It is now chic. And most of the mods are difficult if not impossible to reverse. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


    "Hate the USA? Boycott everything American. Particularly its websites..."
    -Me
    How did this get posted? (3.66 / 3) (#215)
    by The Alien on Mon Jul 28, 2003 at 08:58:24 PM EST

    Even the source of the twins article declares it was a joke. That's only the one claim I've looked at. The other stuff seems a bit sketchy as well. Looking at the author's diary, I'm inclined to applaud him for putting one over on everyone rather than mock him for being clueless.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by Spencer Perceval on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 12:26:40 AM EST

    sometimes it's nice to feel normal.


    All the animals come out at night - whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.
    Easy (3.25 / 4) (#223)
    by SanSeveroPrince on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 06:26:46 AM EST

    Democracy has introduced a wonderful concept in our culture: let each individual have their own voice.

    Sometimes I feel that this concept is being abused. This is one of those times.

    People, self-mutilation is not a sub-culture. It is not a trend, fad or movement. It's a disease. It's a psychological imbalance that may or may not have a chemical base.

    Get it?

    ----

    Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think


    Now why didn't I think of that. (none / 0) (#225)
    by Blasted Operator From Heck on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 08:16:20 AM EST

    Well spotted :-)

    makes you wonder... (5.00 / 5) (#226)
    by illegal eagle on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 08:41:51 AM EST

    ... why the Winamp creators called themselves "Nullsoft" :]

    Carole (5.00 / 3) (#228)
    by hucke on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 08:55:53 AM EST

    Hearken ye 'round and hear the tale of Carole, and her BEAUTIFUL DORRANCE #5X STAINLESS STEEL HOOKS:

    ABOUT ME -- CAROLE -- I AM SOON TO BECOME A REAL DBE AMPUTEE


    matt hucke * graveyards of chicago - http://graveyards.com/

    let's not forget catman (5.00 / 2) (#232)
    by the sixth replicant on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 01:56:58 PM EST

    kitty, kitty

    From the Rotten Store (none / 0) (#244)
    by romanpoet on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 05:46:47 PM EST

    See Also: 'Screwed Blue and Tatooed'
    http://www.rottenstore.com/scblandta.html

    -Romanpoet

    The "Elastrator" tool - utter bullshit (none / 0) (#247)
    by jabber on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 07:26:34 PM EST

    Showing an ice-pick up one's nose does not make it a "nose pick". Putting a dildo on a reciprocating saw does not, suddenly, make it "intended" for penetration. Just because you can use a Black & Decker cordless drill to perform a trepanation, does not make it The Trepanator™!

    Just because some freak uses a tool to put a rubber band in a place where it will cut off the blood supply to his testicles, does not mean that this is the purpose of the tool.

    These things are used to quickly and easily place rubber bands on the claws of live lobsters. Their original purpose is more likely this than castration.

    [TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

    Why do we all look stupid during these days? (none / 0) (#251)
    by chanio on Tue Jul 29, 2003 at 10:23:09 PM EST

    Is it me or are these political times, that make us all look as if we have suddenly discovered that we were stupid and we didn't notice until some clever man told us so?

    Besides the fear that might accompany these thoughts, what is obvious is that there is a line between what one wants to do with and from his freedom, and what others decide that he must pass through, don't you think?

    But I am always going to keep on scaring myself: only about what I might decide to do, tomorrow...

    These odd ideas are not very different from the owned by people trying to enhance their body to get a better job, or sacrify their freedom to get better paid, survive, win a war, etc.
    ________________
    Farenheit Binman:
    This worlds culture is throwing away-burning thousands of useful concepts because they don't fit in their commercial frame.
    My chance of becoming intelligent!

    One little problem (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by fergdeff on Wed Jul 30, 2003 at 01:35:08 AM EST

    Surely one of the most satisfying moments of every day would be forever missing. What do you scratch first thing in the morning?

    Wow (5.00 / 3) (#258)
    by Bill Melater on Wed Jul 30, 2003 at 09:03:51 AM EST

    I'd be happy if I could just get rid of this wart on my finger.

    • Well... by SoupIsGoodFood, 07/30/2003 08:07:29 PM EST (5.00 / 2)
      • Ya know by Bill Melater, 07/30/2003 10:15:07 PM EST (none / 0)
        • Smiley faces by SoupIsGoodFood, 08/01/2003 12:12:25 AM EST (none / 0)
    How do I get to another planet? (3.00 / 2) (#263)
    by CoolName on Wed Jul 30, 2003 at 01:37:46 PM EST

    I think this planet is best abandoned. If people of earth think nullification and drilling holes in their head is the secret to happiness I am all for emigrating to a distant star system. Some one just has to invent a warp drive.

    "What does your conscience say? -- 'You shall become the person you are.'" Friedrich Nietzsche


    What the heck? (4.00 / 3) (#266)
    by Skid on Wed Jul 30, 2003 at 11:02:10 PM EST

    You know, I try to be a tolerant and understanding person. Gay people, other races, people with oddball kinks, I try to take it all in stride.

    Even so, I still can't figure out when being fucking stupid, not to mention crazy, constituted a sub-culture.

    Might as well quit prosecuting the murderers because we have to respect the killing subculture, y'know?
     
    "The problem is, there's no shit... people shit, animal shit. You ought to spray everyone with shit as they walk in." - Hob Gadling, The Sandman

    You'll love this! (none / 0) (#270)
    by Motekye on Thu Jul 31, 2003 at 06:05:03 PM EST

    Boy do I have a body modification for you! Dump propane all over yourself and light a match. I don't know where you get off on removing your arms, legs and (*gasp*) manhood; do you never want to be normal again? Mutilating yourself is not normal, it's not a sub-culture: it's stupid. I'm not being intolerant of those who've had their parts taken off, alone. But, one must remember that this action is the result of another disfunction — I'd be disgusted to think of a disfunction that'd make you qant to do that and quick to want them shut off from the rest of society in an institution of some kind. That is all.


    Grrr....
    An Amazing New Concept... (4.00 / 1) (#273)
    by derby on Fri Aug 01, 2003 at 04:26:45 AM EST

     A close friend of mine introduced me to this forum, stressing that it is a good place for rational, intelligent debate and or/presentation of new ideas, perspectives, and such. With this in mind, I read the preceeding article...a bit shocking, if you've never watched the Learning Channel or Maury Povich. And, yes, the links were a bit unsettling, but I didn't get nauseated, my vision didn't blur, my balls didn't start to ache. Rather,I found it amusing. The following comments, however, I did find somewhat more disturbing. Maybe it's because i grew up with my mother working as a lab tech at a hospital, hearing horror stories about motorcycle accidents and the like, but i didn't think that simple text could be so effective at turning stomachs...that, or I've joined a forum of people with no physical constitution. More disturbing, however, is the comments on the author of said article being a pervert, or a sick bastard, or gullible, etc. As a group of people who seem to like to keep up on cultural goings-on, I would think you would be aware of an amazing new idea, known among a certain few as playing the role of Devil's Advocate. If you aren't familiar with it, the concept goes like this: Say you read about something, or hear something, that makes a valid point, or presents a new idea, which you may or may not agree with, but you can understand from a separate, analytical point of view. When someone attacks said case unfairly, if you understand the point of the article, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, you may feel compelled to defend its validity. This is known as Playing The Devil's Advocate. Having said that, I find it rather crude that you could blast the author of this article so harshly, as if he desires to take a chainsaw to his own limbs, or castrate himself. Perhaps if I find anything even remotely as bizarre, I'll think twice about posting an article on it...

    Reagarding My Previous Comment (none / 0) (#274)
    by derby on Fri Aug 01, 2003 at 05:08:10 AM EST

    I was unaware of the discrepancies between the HTML and Plain-Text formats, resulting in my comment's transformation into a single paragraph. I apologize sincerely, to both you and your ocular muscles, and offer a complete and utter retraction of any offense this may have caused. If that's not enough of an apology, then I don't like you either.
                 Sincerely,
                        Derby

    • hah by Goggs, 08/02/2003 08:07:13 AM EST (none / 0)
    You suck (2.50 / 4) (#275)
    by ShrimpX on Fri Aug 01, 2003 at 06:09:53 AM EST

    All you narrow-minded morons who are saying that body modification is "sick," and is "the same as crime" etc need a big fucking clue. I bet some of you have tatoos. Some of you probably have piercings. So wtf is so acceptable about poking holes in your body and permanently damaging your skin if more drastic types of body modification are unacceptable?

    If you made a more realistic argument like "I don't want my tax money to go to some fuck who cut his leg off for kicks" I would try to understand. Take your ignorant witch hunt propaganda somewhere else.

    Take another sip of your grande latte and head to the tatoo parlor to permanently damage your skin on your biceps with a cool japanese letter you have no clue what it means in the hope that it will attract chix at the clubs on saturday... Because damaging your body to be a more efficient social cunt whore is acceptable.

    The Seat of Intelligence (none / 0) (#279)
    by djief on Sat Aug 02, 2003 at 01:15:00 PM EST

    Perhaps it would be worth considering that Sentience has a right to choose it's platform and that overcoming the limitations of the body are the next step in human evolution. It is interesting what this article implies about EBM while ignoring the entire population of disabled persons for whom EBM offers incredible potential. Biology was repeatedly demonstrated the strength in diversity, both behavioural and physical. It's time who people to embrace that lesson and understand that it not only lead us to where we are, but is likely to be the only thing that make our continued survival as a species possible.
    Common sense isn't.
    Natural Selection (none / 0) (#286)
    by bigbtommy on Sun Aug 24, 2003 at 06:42:17 PM EST

    Nullification - Darwin rearing his ugly head again!
    -- bbCity.co.uk - When I see kids, I speed up
    Extreme Body Modification | 286 comments (201 topical, 85 editorial, 1 hidden)
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