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The Adequacy Style Troll (AST): A Brief Refresher

By localroger in Meta
Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 09:38:13 AM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

Recently a few brave souls have been observed trying to revive the nearly lost art form of the Adequacy Style Troll, or AST. Below, find a convenient guide to recognizing this rare and unusually entertaining form of troll, as well as guidelines for those who would join in the effort to keep the AST alive.


We all know about trolls. They leave insulting or profane messages in comment threads not because they believe in their own outrageous statements, but in order to observe the chaos as other users reply to them. But while anyone can leave a post questioning another user's sexual orientation or calling them a fucktard, a special breed of troll exists to distill chaos into its purest discernible form. Popularized and raised to a fine art by now-defunct website Adequacy, the Adequacy Style Troll, or AST, brings a blender to the ordinary practice of shit-stirring.

Components of an AST

The AST achieves its goal by a combination of proven techniques:

  • A tone of calmness and rationalism is maintained. This creates an enhanced contrast between the AST itself and the responses, which are likely to be emotional and less thoroughly considered.
  • The initial starting position for argument is unassailably sensible.
  • Each step of the argument is completely reasonable.
  • Substantial, even excessive, documentation is provided.
  • The final conclusion is outrageous and completely unacceptable to the target victim group.
The hard part of creating a successful AST is making the last item flow naturally from the preceeding ones. The successul AST leaves a typical victim, who is not versed in the minutae of logic, sputtering and flustered as he finds himself almost tempted, for however brief a moment, to believe in the unacceptably outrageous conclusion of the argument.

Subject

The AST is not bound to any particular political theory, as the amusingly contradictory mission statement for the now-defunct Adequacy site attested. An AST works toward a conclusion so outrageous that absolutely nobody anywhere in the world (except maybe for a few total kooks) would accept it. Some examples which either did or should have appeared on the now-defunct Adequacy site might be:

  • Paedophiles perform a public service by accelerating the rate of maturity of our kids
  • Jeffrey Dahmer was actually a swell guy who is routinely misunderstood
  • Mister Rogers was actually a criminal pervert who should have been locked up
  • England would greatly benefit from joining the USA as a new state
  • Vermont should secede from the USA
  • Senator Joe McCarthy was a great patriot who only had the USA's best interests at heart
  • The USA should invade Norway
  • The death penalty should apply to misdemeanors
I could go on, but I'm not really very good at this myself. You should get the idea.

Title

The title should be bland and reasonable, a bit mysterious, and should carry just a hint of challenge. For example, let us take the title of this piece, which I shamelessly ripped off from a currently practicing master of the form.

To the left of the colon we have the actual title, which is vague enough that if you don't already know what I'm talking about you don't know what it means. This is important. I spiced it up by adding a nonexistent acronym as if it is something you should be familiar with; again, if you don't get the joke immediately this subtly implies that you are ignorant right from the start.

To the right of the colon we have the real artwork. The first lie is the word Brief. I am actually going to carry on about this at nauseating length but the title implies that I could have really gone on for a lot longer if I wasn't just tossing this off the top of my incredibly well-educated head as a favor to you poor uneducated losers.

Then we have Refresher. Here is a brilliantly chosen word that accomplishes several things. First, it implies that I'm not telling you something new, I'm simply refreshing a knowledge I assume you had. Wait, you didn't know what an AST was? Well you must be some kind of real lunkhead then.

Refresher also implies that I'm not just going to drone on at you, I'm going to open the windows and let a little joy flow into your life. Like a breath of fresh air, I'm going to give you something interesting and useful to ponder.

Refresher also implies that what we will be discussing is breezy and uncontroversial, a low-level discussion that will be entertaining and easy on those hung-over brain cells.

Remember, a troll is a memetic assault. The title should be like the moment before the brawl where you pretend to be concerned, so concerned about a stain on your victim's shirt -- right before you sucker punch him.

Another good title example comes from history, from what is in fact both the first and greatest AST ever perpetrated: Yet Another Effort, Frenchmen, If We Would Be Republicans by that all-time champion troller the Marquis de Sade. This was such a brilliant troll I used it as a starting point the last time I indulged in a troll of my own.

Sade's title implies that, in the aftermath of the French Revolution, with such vast gains in liberty having already be made, that only another small push could realize his own perfect vision of liberty -- which turns out to be no laws at all, including those against theft, rape, incest, and murder.

There is a similar coyness in the title of that more familiar historic troll, A Modest Proposal in which Jonathan Swift advises the Irish to solve their famine problem by eating their children. While Modest Proposal is deservedly well known it doesn't really qualify as an AST, since it doesn't seem that Swift anticipated the large number of very stupid people who would think he was serious. Sade, by contrast, leveraged the chaos of revolution and his own reputation into a deliberately ambiguous statement that leaves people arguing about his intent more than 200 years in the future.

Opening Position

The AST must start with an assertion nobody reasonable can find disagreeable. Sade began Yet Another Effort with an assault on religion, which was well-tuned to the mood of post-Revolution France; I began my homage with the universal complaint that "there are too many damn laws."

This is the direct approach, and it has a flaw; somewhere in the AST you must commit logical violence to drive the argument over the line to insanity. If someone identifies this linchpin of illogic then your troll is ruined. A superior technique is to start by admitting to some small bad thing about your eventual argument (e.g. paedophiles are really bad people) and then gradually erase this assertion of badness through logic, say by over-generalizing between paedophiles and "average" people. In this technique your linchpin is off stage because it's the other bad stuff you could have said about paedophiles early on, but didn't; like stage magic, the successful AST is often about what isn't said.

Chain of Argument

Each argument in the chain must appear solid even if it isn't. One technique has already been mentioned for directing the argument into la-la land; a few others can be summarized readily:

  • Make use of the copious documentation available from biased action groups, corporate sources, and net.kooks to bolster your argument.
  • Blather on at long and ponderous length about things that aren't really important and bury the linchpin of illogic in a couple of sentences that most people will be too tired to read.
  • Make use of anecdotal or potentially biased evidence that supports you, but do not accept such evidence that does not.
  • To whitewash that which is repulsive:
    • over-generalize between subject and that which is normal.
    • mention and whitewash small flaws as cover
    • imply that large flaws are unbelievable or impossible
  • To demonize that which is well liked:
    • over-generalize between subject and that which is repulsive.
    • seize on every small flaw and complain that it is a sure sign of some much more important deep character deficiency
    • imply that virtues are unbelievable and unlikely
  • Use these techniques sparingly and in as few passages as possible, preferably before or after something else much more interesting and distracting.
Documentation

Within an AST, there are no rules of documentation. Now that we have the Internet you can simply overwhelm your victims with information. Some of the champion trollers at now-defunct website Adequacy would hyperlink every third or fourth word, sometimes to things that had nothing to do with their topic at hand.

When using biased sources, it is helpful to pick those whose biases aren't immediately obvious. Deep-link to pages that support your position without readily identifying the page's more obnoxious purpose in existing. On the other hand if you can bolster an argument with a real source that is widely respected, be sure to lean on that heavily. The linchpin of illogic should be as small as possible, a safety pin in a forest of I-beams.

Deployment

The correct venue for deploying an AST would be now-defunct website Adequacy, but obviously there is a problem with that vis-a-vis the now-defunct part.

If you choose to deploy on K5 you have a choice: Diary, Story, or Comment.

  • Diaries have the advantage that they can't be voted down or hidden. They have the disadvantage that only a few dedicated masochists read them.
  • Stories have the advantage of a wide and satisfying distribution. A well-constructed AST can usually survive at least for a while in the queue, since it takes a 20-vote preponderance to vote off. Only the most brilliant AST will make FP though, and it takes a really good one to make section.
  • Comments have the advantage that they can double as parasitic sucker-punches on the poor schlep whose story you've commented, especially if you leave a late, high-level, very very long comment. While comments can be hidden if they're offensive enough it's almost impossible to get a well-constructed AST downmodded below 1 because of the number of admiring co-trolls who will mod you up.
Post-Deployment Appreciation

If your AST is successful it will draw a shitstorm of outraged responses. The most skilled AST'ers leverage this by careful management of the reply threads; the really great ones get far enough to strain the Scoop engine's recursive threading ability.

Most of the guidelines for drawing out the comment stream are similar to those for creating the argument chain, since you'll be countering arguments. There are some subtle differences, though, since you have less control over the direction of things.

  • Never accept documentation that disagrees with you. All 'net documentation is suspect, unless it supports you of course.
  • Seize on every small error by any critic and use it to hound them mercilessly. After all, anyone who can't spell "the" must really be a moron.
  • Casually dismiss such criticisms of yourself, even when it is proven by multiple documentary sources that you really fucked up and your linchpin of illogic is hanging out in the breeze.
  • Always have the last word, unless your critic has done something really stupid that makes them look bad.
The Life: Pros and Cons

For every prostitute there is a first time you have sex for money, and for every troll there is a first time you just cut the hell up for the purity of the chaos instead of any real belief in the topic at hand.

On the Pro side it is always safer to ridicule passion than to surrender to it. Although reading AST's from the victim side is only amusing the first four or five times, perpetrating them can remain amusing for many years as the now-defunct website Adequacy demonstrated. The world is inhabited by an unending procession of marks who will fall for a well-constructed troll, and as not just a troll but an AST you will own them. You will own one of the loftiest perches in the idea-space of humanity, a position unassailable because of its very mutability.

On the other hand once you acquire a reputation as an AST'er you will never be able to claim any passions you might develop. Sade's troll was marvelously effective but he still spent half his life in jail and mental institutions, a price Internet trolls fortunately do not face.

An ordinary troll can always start a new account but one price you pay for AST'ing is that your style will identify you. The AST is like a short story or informative nonfiction work; done well you must put enough of yourself into it that you may not be able to leave it behind.

The AST also poisons the well of discourse, that really being its reason for existence; and too much poison can kill any well. If you doubt this, all I can do is ask, why is the now-defunct website Adequacy, in fact, defunct?

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The Adequacy Style Troll (AST): A Brief Refresher | 199 comments (185 topical, 14 editorial, 0 hidden)
Bad move. (4.37 / 8) (#2)
by Mr Hogan on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 09:11:13 PM EST

The adequacks are more childish than they can know or dare contemplate - I think you made a big mistake inviting them to DOS you - and with you the novel - off the Internet - Jesus they practically bankrupted AMD so I don't hardly think a 6502 programmer will fare even a little better do you?

--
Life is food and rape, then tilt.

Forgot One: (3.33 / 3) (#4)
by michaelp on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 09:21:33 PM EST

Joe McCarthy was sincerely trying to save America from evildoers.



"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

adequacy style (4.66 / 3) (#5)
by demi on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 09:21:47 PM EST

You don't seriously think this 'style' was pioneered by any of them, do you? There have certainly been some hilarious and very inventive trolls here on k5, but as far as I know, very few of them were associated with the aq bunch.

Interesting: +1 fp (none / 0) (#8)
by jnana on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 09:30:10 PM EST

Very interesting (and informative) read! Thanks. I'll keep this bookmarked if it makes it to front page or section.

I sorely miss adequacy.org, and reading through your 'refresher' brought back many happy memories. Is there any place like adequacy online now?

A minor correction (4.11 / 18) (#12)
by shoeboy on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 09:36:56 PM EST

We all know about trolls. They leave insulting or profane messages in comment threads not because they believe in their own outrageous statements, but in order to observe the chaos as other users reply to them.

That's not entirely accurate. I genuinely believe that you're a talentless hack who wouldn't know character development if it walked into a bar with 2 rabbis and a lawyer. I post messages to this effect because I want you to apologize for sharing your writing with others and never do it again.

In conclusion, you are a fucktard.

Your Daddy,
--PJ
No more trolls!

I miss Adequacy... (4.50 / 2) (#32)
by Psycho Dave on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 11:01:20 PM EST

In fact, it was Adequacy that brought me to the world of Kur5hin in the first place. After the page went defunct, it redirected you to K5, and I'm glad it did.

-1, author is biter, plagiarism, resection (2.71 / 7) (#34)
by Troll Laureate on Fri Jul 18, 2003 at 11:10:30 PM EST

to fiction.

("trolls" is a myth to keep users complacent out of fear of being labeled as such.)

What I must protest against (4.26 / 23) (#38)
by joto on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 12:05:21 AM EST

While I have nothing against trolling, per se, what I must protest against is your obvious use of left-wing marxist propaganda to defend your political beliefs.

As a god-fearing young christian, I can't help but notice that you advocate using a tone of calmness and rationalism in a good AST troll. But isn't calmness and rationalism the work of the devil himself? God wants us to be passionate creatures. We must fight the scientists and scholars that denounce creationism as the only holy and biblical belief regarding our origins.

Must we not view with skepticism, the use of logic to explain our holy existence. Mathematicians themselves admit that math and logic is inherently beautiful. But this beauty is not from the words of the holy scripture, and thus, can only be the work of Satan himself.

No, good sir, I must protest passionately against your attempt at luring these impressionable young souls we find here at k5 into the hands of Satan. A good recipe for trolls, must emphasize the qualities of speaking truthfully, with conviction, and only on subjects that can be based on the holy scripture.

Adequacy.org - sharp contrasts (4.77 / 9) (#40)
by mfk on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 12:20:37 AM EST

I loved Adequacy. Even though I wasn't very active on it, I sometimes posted, both as mfk and as the Anonymous Reader. The editors were clever and had a sense of humor which was lost on those trolled.

What distinguished Adequacy, though, was its stark contrast with the liberalness of Kuro5hin.

Consider:

  • Kuro5hin posts an article about Otherkin, and how we should accept them; meanwhile, Adequacy trolled the Wiccans by calling it a religion created solely for teenagers to shock their parents. (I remember an editor mocking the Law of Three by saying that for every inflammatory message posted by a Wiccan, he would randomly delete three messages posted by Wiccans
  • K5 posts an article suggesting that marijuana isn't all that bad, Adequacy, on the other  hand, posts an article entitled "Why Marijuana is the Worst Drug". Stoners come from everywhere to defend their drug of choice, but since they're stoned, they can't think straight, they're ridiculously easy to troll.

My favorite part of Adequacy was, by far, LINUX ZEALOT. Em, elenchos, someone, please bring back Linux Zealot. There's so much potential with him and his buddy, the ever-lovable Mac Bigot.

I appeal to anyone who managed to snag a copy of the Adequacy archives when they were still up to please post them so that I may burn them to CD and revel in the idiocy I participated in.

subversive tutorials (3.16 / 6) (#44)
by semaphore on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 02:45:13 AM EST

like this must be suppressed. the content of k5 is already severely affected by a signal to troll ratio way under the statutory limit.

there is no need to increase this by posting stuff like this. there is more than enough reference out there for aspiring trollers_with_a_clue, and the clueless ones around here really don't need encouraging. not good.

actually the article was ok but has a waffley flavour to it, like the writer is having a go or something. then i had the good fortune to encounter the word "memetic".

this will be the first word on my list of cancel triggers. on k5 it wins the writer an automatic -1. so i don't need to decide whose leg localroger is pulling.

i have great hopes for this reflex response and expect it to save me reading a lot of verbose shit . this should in no way reflect on the present article which is probably unfortunate collateral damage.


-
"you want enlightenment? stare into the sun."


Not another goddamn localroger article. (4.19 / 21) (#46)
by Michael Moore on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 03:19:27 AM EST

Looks like localroger is getting more confident with his trolling abilities. Now he's actually trolling us with stories about trolling, and apparently (according to the votes at this time) succeeding. He's actually growing so powerful here that he's dropping his facade of humility with quotes like: "Only the most brilliant AST will make FP though, and it takes a really good one to make section.". Guess that means you're brilliant, right localroger? You've FP-trolled K5 yet again.

I think localroger's greatest trolling power is his ability to target the K5 audience. This piece perfectly exploits K5's love for meta navel-gazing as well as the age-old trick of writing a story 4 pages long so that nobody can actually be bothered reading it. For those of us who actually bother reading it all, we're assaulted with nonsense language like "linchpin of illogic", clear marks of a troll which doesn't even bother to make sense at its core. At least he's changing his game a little, though, with articles like this.

The best example of localroger's targeted trolling is, of course, his fiction. He's got K5 marked here, he knows this bunch of nerds won't vote up anything that doesn't give them the warm, motherly feelings of Star Trek (or worse, Star Wars) nostalgia. So he pumps out these allegories of trolling and deception masked as pulp sci-fi and claims he just "writes what he enjoys reading", while he's clearly analysed what K5 will and will not vote up.

To make matters worse, localroger continues his K5 monopoly by refusing to vote up any fiction stories that aren't written by him or one of his multiple accounts. Usually he'll even post some banal editorial complaining that the characters are too complex or it's not set in the future, probably because he hopes to sway the voting by using pure "localroger appeal".

Anyway, this is all just another sign of how K5 is becoming more and more of a slashdotesque homogenous community. Whenever garbage like this (and every other localroger article) gets posted, part of what makes K5 a good place to be dies.


--
"My life was more improved by a single use of [ecstasy] than someone's life is made worse by becoming a heroin addict." -- aphrael

Flaming as an art form (4.33 / 6) (#49)
by MichaelCrawford on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 05:48:00 AM EST

The AST form of trolling is something that I've always aspired to, but sadly have never been able to pull off. I have, however, had more success with flaming.

I'm not the sort who believes that one shouldn't flame on the net. Nor do I just randomly curse people. Instead, I feel that one should work hard to craft flames, so they represent the very best of your ability to write.

I am proudest of Some of Us Work for a Living, a letter critical of Be's business management. It was my last post to the list before I was unsubscribed by the moderator:

That is not an appropriate response. I could understand a response like that from a hobbyist or student only interested in writing code for fun and academic interest on a platform fully intended to be no more than a curiousity, but coming from a Be employee, it is inexcusable.

Let me suggest a more appropriate response:

"I'm sorry that you have been so frustrated by Be's repeated failures to execute on its business model or to abide by its publicly stated commitments to the developer community. What can those of us within Be who subscribe to BeDevTalk do to communicate your concerns with senior management in order to ensure that your substantial existing investment in money, time and sweat developing BeOS products results in the payoff that you were promised by Be's senior management?"

Somewhat less testy but I feel ultimately more effective is my later piece, Freeing the Developer from OS Vendor Shackles.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


IHBT. (3.33 / 3) (#51)
by it certainly is on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 07:45:58 AM EST

currently practicing master of the form.

You can't call Ed Slocomb a master of anything. If he were, he'd wouldn't be called [Czech for "slave"]Slave. He's a lowly janitor whose logorrhea is often mistaken for writing of merit.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

Adequacy ? (3.50 / 2) (#54)
by bugmaster on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 09:08:18 AM EST

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what happened to Adequacy ?

I used to skim the site for a laugh now and then, until I lost interest. Now, it times out connections on port 80. Did they run out of money ? Get sued for libel ? Fly their spaceship out to the comet ? What ?
>|<*:=

So very nice (3.50 / 4) (#59)
by caine on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 10:18:10 AM EST

How suitable that the ad I got with this article was "YHBT. YHL. HAND.". How this ever could get on the FP is beyond me, and I have no desire to see "the now-defunct" Adequacy resurrected, especially not on K5.

That being said; The article was kinda funny.

--

There is no such thing as an AST (3.75 / 4) (#60)
by thelizman on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 10:33:59 AM EST

The so-called "AST" is nothing of the sort. These types of trollings have been around long before adequacy, on this thing called usenet.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
I've seen AST's at work at /. (4.33 / 3) (#63)
by andr0meda on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 11:08:48 AM EST


I am not going over the discussion with him again, but I can tell you that it was mainly a political discussion about the US government, their decisions, and it's relation with the rest of the world.  For europeans like myself, this is an easy topic to get emotional about, and I have a strong view on that matter.

However, I talked to him in more than one individual discussion, and while at first I was a bit off-guard by the fluent use of language and the abundancy of 'rocksteady' 'evidence' and factual knowledge he brought to the table, I soon after came to realise that he was playing a brilliant mindgame.  My reflex had been to try to disproove his arguments with pure logic, but he was using it against me, however not quite in an honest way.  I started to analyse his methods of reasoning and writing and I noticed that he subtily changed subjects, evaded certain hot points, and steered discussions in a direction only he wanted to go.  By quoting parts out of context he created all different kinds of discussions, not forgetting to insert nuances he was certain I would fall for and react upon.  I started reformatting my text to make sure all eventual interpretations were ruled out as much as possible.  However, the guy on the other end was good at covering his bases and it was hard for me to find weeknesses in his perfectly logical, allmost inhuman, reasoning, and when I occasionally did, he simply changed the truth and believed it, without overemphasising any of it as to not raise any suspicion.  

One thing that struck me was that he was not giving away any clues about his background, his own political beliefs, his nationality.  He revealed nothing of himself, and when I assumed certain things about his personality, it was again very easy to tell me I was wrong, making his argument weigh in in favour of mine.

Then I changed tactics and started to reason more humanely, more 'beta', and low and behold, his responses started to weaken, started to try to draw me back into the logical discussion using obvious baith.  But I didn't bite it and left him cold after that.

When I examined other posts by him on other people's posts, I noticed the same patterns, but he was less carefull in those, obviously beause I was the only one who would go as far as I did in discussions with him.  His post in case was a very generalising post, with wording that came close to scolding the european people with lots of sneaky suggestive wording, mainly implying that europeans could not possibly be taken serious.  Reading that post, I was offended, but instead off simply falling for the baith, I reposted his post, adding style-classifiers to every word that carried a possibly offensive tone or that could be misinterpreted, while making a strong effort to remain as fair and objective as I could judging his sentences.  With his suggestive wording so apparently uncovered, it wasn't a pretty sight.  He never reacted to that post again.

Nonetheless, while I felt flattered that the ACT in question went to great lengths to lure and tease me and my brain capacity into lengthy discussions about sensitive issues, I also felt very bad about putting so much energy in what hindsight appeared to be unhonest trolling.  

Do not be afraid of the void my friend, is it not merely the logical next step?

What about Ayn Rand? (5.00 / 3) (#72)
by wumpus on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 12:03:18 PM EST

In one sense she was outrageously successful at this type of thing. On the other hand, she seemed to affect those who agreed with her far more than those who didn't.

Wumpus

Adequacy's key advantage: brutal censorship (5.00 / 8) (#73)
by it certainly is on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 12:20:54 PM EST

[or, why Adequacy isn't Usenet]

While localroger has done a commendable job on documenting the Adequacy house style, and even realises that the style has been in use for hundreds of years, he has failed to document the chief reason for Adequacy's "success".

As most of you are well aware, all responses collected by a troll after someone has shouted "TROLL!" are worth double, as most tech-savvy people are aware of the warning; it scares off all but the most naïve respondants. But the Adequacy staff would rather not have their cover blown so obviously. They controlled the discourse at Adequacy.org with an iron grip. A brutal regime of censorship was in place. Anything that blatantly spelt out the purpose of the article (e.g. "it's a troll, guys, don't bother responding") was deleted. Immediately. Furthermore, friends of the Adequacy staff, the Adequacy staff themselves, and other people "in on the joke" would play along with the article, posting comments in agreement with the article to further infuriate the poor souls who had been lured to Adequacy.

Control of the discussion forum was Adequacy's main advantage over anywhere else. That was their innovation. Without it, they'd eventually be ignored in the forums they trolled, garnering the odd bite here and there but nowhere near as much as an innocent article about religion would on K5 or an article about Microsoft at Slashdot.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

Only in this insular, irrelevant world of fuckups (4.47 / 19) (#78)
by Kax on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 01:05:55 PM EST

does any of this matter.

Pardon me for being confuzzled on this point, (5.00 / 6) (#88)
by la princesa on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 05:43:04 PM EST

but what does sincerity have to do with a properly formed argument?  Sincerity seems to be a shorthand for earnesty or incoherence, neither of which should be more than a tool in putting forth an argument.  A person's arguments could be quite sincere, and yet not very defensible except with that precious sincerity.  Conversely, a person's arguments could be completely insincere, and yet highly defensible.  Seeing the difference and being able to assess an argument on multiple scales (technical merit and emotional merit if any) is the mark of a truly discriminating intellect.  

A truly successful argument typically is one that offers a strong emotional appeal combined with technically defensible positions.  That said, the emotional appeal should be a function of the arguer's skill, not inferred from other things the arguer has said.  It is this inability to encapsulate discussions that really toasts civilised discourse.  That poisons the well far more than some idea of sincerity that couldn't be proven anyhow.  If I am arguing about politics, one should only assess my arguments at that point in time, based on what I'm putting forth during that present discussion.  It's wilfully detrimental to respond to my present political arguments using reference to anything I said in the past regarding politics.  It is, after all, a discussion.  Sincerity is an unprovable thing-- one cannot say for certain that anyone is sincere.  There's just the impression.  And besides, if the argument is sound technically, why does it need some little crutch named sincerity to prop it up?

Discussions, at least of the sort being referenced, should in some fashion be self-contained, with participants not using past statements to infer what someone REALLY means.  You can't know what anyone REALLY means.  You can only know what they mean based on their choices of words and tone.  And those choices have nothing to do with sincerity.  The best writers can make compelling choices for their arguments without needing to 'feel sincere' about the topic being argued.  All people should aspire to a standard as simple and pure as discussing something on its merits, not on how sincere you think the other guy is about that something.  

___
<qpt> Disprove people? <qpt> What happens when you disprove them? Do they disappear in a flash of logic?

Reminds me of Heidegger on Art (5.00 / 5) (#91)
by Urpo on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 05:55:01 PM EST

Referring to a work of art, one philosopher, Martin Heidegger, said: "We ask what the work is as it presents itself in its own Being. The work presents itself in its own Being inasmuch as it - the work - really is. And the work of art is as it really is in setting itself up."

Have you ever read any theory of art regarding the still life? The AST seems similar to that in some ways, too. eg Merab Mamardashvili, speaking about the work as it really is and about the work as it is set up, asks if a Paul Cézanne apple picture is a picture with apples or a picture of apples. He has linked these two questions with the notion that, if we take one picture as a picture of apples, we do not necessarily understand what apples themselves are. Or, it is possible to comprehend through the incomprehensible.

The question with any work of man, including articles on websites, is always one of interpretation. You can read something directly for what it is, or you can read all sorts of meaning into it. It sounds like the person who is capable of multiple interpretations who can flexibly think will be most suited to creating and appreciating ASTs.

The AST is a field of tension between the word, and the object. Between the literal, and the literary, between apple and picture of an apple.

Only semnioticians, amateur or otherwise, can excel in the world of the AST, imho.

--
Improvement makes strait roads, but the crooked roads without Improvement, are roads of Genius.

trolling is ... (4.00 / 5) (#92)
by akb on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 06:13:29 PM EST

... boring.  Maybe that's why I found adequacy boring and have found k5 to have become boring as well.

Collaborative Video Blog demandmedia.net

Ooo! Shiny metal tied to a bit of string! (3.60 / 5) (#98)
by zikzak on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 07:06:42 PM EST

This story is just plain horrible.

Trolls (5.00 / 5) (#99)
by kjb on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 07:26:35 PM EST

I think one of the most brilliant trolls I have ever seen was when Alan Sokal trolled Social Text.

--
Now watch this drive.

How to respond to a troll (4.00 / 4) (#106)
by TheModerate on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 09:07:00 PM EST

First of all, don't respond to a troll.

However, because trolling is itself vague and ambigious (I mean, one can say that any post that gets a lot of replies is a troll), there is sometimes a certain amount of doubt as to whether or not you are indeed responding to a troll. Here's what you do:

  1. Check his user history. Most of the trolls on this website are very bad at what they do, and they will either be moderated down or the title's of their comments will obvious be of similarly trollish material.
  2. Read some of his previous comments. Do they sound trollish to you?
  3. If you are still in doubt, keep your reply short. There is a law on the internet that says anything written that is short and to the point automatically sounds witty (this is how most post signitures work). Give him a clue that you are on to him.

But for the most part, this isn't going to help. Trolls work best on people new to the world wide web and trolling unintentionally (for the most part) causes an internet elite to form. If you are new to the web, you aren't going to know about trolling are probably going to have the idea that people actually mean what they say.

How do we solve the troll problem? Give them all jobs. Seriously, a big indication of a troll is how many posts or how much time they spend online in a day. If you don't believe me, look at some of their user infos. I would even say, that the longer a person spends his time online, the more likely he is to become a troll simply because he runs out of interesting things to talk about. In order to have interesting things to talk about, you have to develop as an individual, you need to gain experiences and points of view, and you simply can't do that by sitting on the computer all day.

Perhaps this hurts a little, and I've been holding back mentioning this for some time, but I think all this trolling is holding Kuro5hin back. Back? Back from where? Do you think this is a serious discussion site? It sure can. Anything is possible. This site can be anything we make of it. Perhaps the problem is that kuro5hin is too free and too open. What do I have in mind? Here's some ideas.

Anyway, eventually I'm going to come up with some more concrete suggestions for actually getting rid of the troll problem.

"What a man has in himself is, then, the chief element in his happiness." -- Schopenhauer

Trolls don't exsit! (4.75 / 4) (#113)
by Fantastic Lad on Sat Jul 19, 2003 at 10:37:35 PM EST

Well, they do, but I strongly suspect that they're a helluva lot less common than people claim. --Indeed, it seems to me that any argument which comes from a viewpoint which is (horrors!) different than either the reader's or prevailing attitudes present, well, by gum! That poster gets labeled, "Troll".

Pardon me, but the only thing sillier than this is the frightened-school-of-fish reaction everybody seems to have when they see that label.

I speak from personal experience. I've been called a troll more times than I can count. --Do people think I'm deliberately inventing viewpoints which I don't actually maintain just so that I can cause anger and frustration? Got news for you. When I post, I might be right or I might be wrong, and heck, I might even be insane, but I do NOT post just to create fireworks. I post because I want to share. And more importantly, I want to bounce my ideas off the world at large in order that I might learn from the results. This creates a crucible effect, and it burns away the bullshit on both sides. It's called, 'Networking'.

Further, some of the classic "Trolls" I've seen around the boards I visit, including this one, seem essentially to just be the postings of hard right conservatives and die-hard skeptics. --Sure, I often happen to think their views and arguments are thin, and sometimes downright imbecilic, but I don't doubt that those posters honestly believe (or at least want to believe), in both themselves and their arguments.

Sounds to me as though localroger got burned by somebody against whom all of his most clever rebuttals were powerless in altering the other guy's point of view.

Gee. Tough freekin' cookies. That's life, and thank goodness for it! If all of our viewpoints were the same as localroger's, then we'd all be closet sado-masochists dealing with our issues under the thin guise of fiction.

No thank you. I've got my own stuff to work through. --Indeed, Every person alive has a unique set of problems they need to solve, and a multitude of different viewpoints are required, plain as that, in order for us to accept all those varying challenges.

-FL

You know what the only difference is... (3.80 / 5) (#128)
by Alhazred on Sun Jul 20, 2003 at 04:01:57 PM EST

Between a troll and a State of The Union speach?

The fatness of the head of the speaker...

As usual a very nice post, your tips on how to lie and deceive your public are both time honored and well exposed.

Nice meta-troll ;o).
That is not dead which may eternal lie And with strange aeons death itself may die.

Poor Troll (1.00 / 5) (#131)
by t reductase on Sun Jul 20, 2003 at 04:32:28 PM EST

Boring.

Who cares? (1.25 / 4) (#139)
by Spencer Perceval on Sun Jul 20, 2003 at 06:58:32 PM EST

A lot of people, it seems. This web forum community message board is filled with stupidfaces


All the animals come out at night - whores, skunk pussies, buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.
Adequacy was a better salon for controversial subj (4.25 / 4) (#149)
by Adam Rightmann on Sun Jul 20, 2003 at 11:43:38 PM EST

ects, than, say, kuro5hin.

Posit a debate on the sinfulness of homosexual acts on kuro5hin, hard to imagine, isn't it? Between those that would argue against the existence of sin because God can not be proved (be mindful that the omnipotent, omniscient God of the Judeo-Christan faith could easily put himself beyond the ken of conventional physics), and those that would argue for the necessity of carnality for a fulfilling life (ignoring celibates due to HOly Orders, young age or intellectualy drive, cf. Newton or Stallman), and those who crave the "5" votes and don't want to take a potentially unpopular stand, the debate would not get out of voting.

Are Homosexual Acts Sinful? At Adequacy, we could debate that, here, raising the question is anethema.

the comments on this story (none / 0) (#152)
by the77x42 on Mon Jul 21, 2003 at 04:50:19 AM EST

I expected more attempts from people trying to be an "AST". For once the comments have let me down. For shame.


"We're not here to educate. We're here to point and laugh." - creature
"You have some pretty stupid ideas." - indubitable ‮

I heard (4.00 / 2) (#154)
by phred on Mon Jul 21, 2003 at 08:36:35 AM EST

AMD shut them down.

I found adequacy folks (4.00 / 3) (#155)
by phred on Mon Jul 21, 2003 at 08:39:33 AM EST

to be whiney and hypersensitive. Perdida was my favorite tho.

Comic (4.00 / 1) (#160)
by stud9920 on Mon Jul 21, 2003 at 09:13:08 AM EST

I have a nice comic about adequacy here

Linux Zealot fan fiction. Post yours !
you forget (4.00 / 1) (#181)
by makaera on Tue Jul 22, 2003 at 09:28:33 AM EST

You may call this the Adequacy Style Troll, but don't forget that these people were refining their technique on /. back before k5 had 10k users and adequacy existed. I remember seeing all of your sample subjects in stories posted on /. that occurred before adequacy came to be. (Unless adequacy existed in 2000, in which case I'm making a total fool of myself and you should all just run me over with your cars or other methods of conveyance.)

"Of course I'm tricking you", I said. "I'm playing white." -- bojo

I guess I'll never understand. (3.00 / 1) (#196)
by ryuuzin on Fri Jul 25, 2003 at 02:32:35 PM EST

It's terribly funny, this thing called "Trolling". It's funny how this little meme has served to completely change how we perceive of and interact with each other.

Nowadays, someone who posts a perfectly valid but socially-abhorrent (or -inept) viewpoint of an issue is labeled witty and applauded for his/her skills in fooling the rest. Likewise, someone who posts a flaming remark about another poster (or a public official, a popular personality, etc) we call a troll par excellence. Back in my day we called the former "ignorant" and the latter "???holes".

I knew a lot of these people back when they *were* ignorant and ???holes. They're still around, in fact. But, how is it that the act of posting has suddenly turned these people into witty, urbane individuals? *sigh* Jeux sans frontieres.

Oh my. (none / 0) (#199)
by ksandstr on Mon Oct 27, 2003 at 05:29:40 PM EST

Although this article contains, for the most part, piles upon heaps upon stacks of formalizations of verbal techniques known to and perfected by generations of green-hued bridge enthusiasts before the current batch, it would still have deserved to appear on the front page if for nothing else then for your exquisite use of the word "nauseating".

In addition, your circumlocutory and excessively verbose use of language reminds me all too closely of a particular character in one of the recent Star Track series who had a similar penchant with regard to hearing his own voice.

Well done.


The Adequacy Style Troll (AST): A Brief Refresher | 199 comments (185 topical, 14 editorial, 0 hidden)
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