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What's wrong with being a fence sitter?

By Suaup in Suaup's Diary
Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 09:31:54 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)

In America I'm constantly attacked for being what's considered a "fence sitter." In the other countries I've visited I've never encountered the same type of attitude towards the middle of the road approach on topics such as religion, politics, and views on life. My friends in other nations are actually pretty open minded about my approach on life. Yet, in America by my friends, family, and people on the street being a fence sitter is considered weak. What is the problem with it?


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The two primary examples I want to talk about are religion and politics. For religion I am a agnostic atheist. That is, subjectively and personally I don't believe a God exists because I'm not convinced in regards to how I was raised (Christian) and at the evidence I've been since found in my search. Objectively I'm agnostic because I simply don't believe either Atheists or Christians can truly, objectively know if God exists outside of their belief at this point in time with what knowledge we have. I stand by being agnostic because it allows me to analyze and look at both arguments with an open mind. That is, I sit on the fence because it gives me the best view of both lawns, unlike a strong atheist I can acknowledge some of the historical truths in religion. Unlike a strong believer I can acknowledge the fallacies in religion. I consider myself on a life-time quest to figure out the truth for myself about religion, thus, I've taken up this position.

However, it is considered weak by many in America. This could simply be because I know more people in America than I do outside of the country, but there seems to be some fundamental belief about taking a stance in this country. I've been called a pussy by my atheist friends for being a fence sitter and not "Taking a stand." and I've been called a weak atheist by my religious friends for not denouncing atheism. My family thinks I need to decide and get on with sitting on the fence because "there's nothing worst than a fence sitter." I'm committed to these views and their badgering won't change that, but I'm interested in why there is such pressure and anger towards fence sitters.

In politics I attended a protest about the war in Iraq. There were people who supported the war and people who were against the war. I've always supported the war for moral reasons, but was against it for legal reasons. At the protest there was just borderline idiotic close-mindedness on both sides. The pro war refused to listen to any argument that did not come from Fox News. The anti war refused to listen to any argument that did not come from Indymedia. They accomplished absolutely nothing but yelling at each other, provoking fights, and getting people who agreed with their view to honk as they drove by. So I made a sign that said Think * Vote * Discuss. That's all it said. It was a little experiment.

Sure enough, the pro-wars attacked me for being a flaming liberal. The anti-wars attacked me for being a flaming pro-government idiot because "voting didn't work." I explained the purpose of my sign was to promote rationality and stop the assumptions. Some people understood it ang thought it was all right. But many more were against it "Get off the fucking fence and grow some balls, write 'SUPPORT OUR TROOPS' on your sign since you support it for moral reason." or "Let me draw a peace sign on it, don't be afraid, take a stance with us." The most common was "Grow some balls and take a stance." I even got punched in the stomach for being a flaming liberal with that sign by a soldier.

So, what's the deal with the need to take a side to the extreme? I have my views, I've taken my stance, but there's little people who stand on my side of the arguments. Because I recognize and agree with arguments from both sides does not mean I'm a pussy ass fence sitter, but there seems to be this attitude in America that you HAVE to take a side and stand 100% along side it or you're just not a man.

Where does this pressure come from? Even on the religion thread we have going now, there's all sorts of attacks on agnostics for "being fence sitters of the worst kind."

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Poll
Fence sitters of the objective kind:
o The best way to view both sides of the wall with an open mind. A good way to live your life. 50%
o A decent way to solve a problem till you're ready to make a choice. 8%
o Too afraid to hop off the wall and be with your peers - Fast path to isolation. 0%
o Indecisve, weak, and afraid of the consequences of choice. 41%

Votes: 12
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Suaup's Diary


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What's wrong with being a fence sitter? | 19 comments (19 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
fuck 'em (4.42 / 7) (#1)
by infinitera on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 09:41:25 PM EST

As a fellow committed agnostic and doubter of all kinds, I salute you and your efforts.

Why I'm an atheist and not agnostic (3.66 / 2) (#2)
by idiot boy on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 09:41:53 PM EST

Just very quickly 'cos I'm off to bed.

First off, it is the responsibility of the religious to prove that a god or spririts or whatever the chuff exists, not mine to disprove its, their or whatever, existence.

Secondly. I do believe that that there is a strong case for saying that there is no "higher" power beyond ourselves.

Third. Whatever the strength of the case for scepticism (i.e. you can't "know" anything), I do not believe that the tree outside my window is a marshmallow.

Hence. I am not agnostic about the marshmallowness of my tree and neither am I agnostic about the existence of god.

Since I do not believe in god, though my mind could be changed given sufficient evidence, I consider myself a thoroughgoing atheist. End of story. Calling myself an agnostic would be a cop out to keep friends and colleagues happy.

It's funny, it's the only subject where you can be sure (as you seem to be) that something is not the case and yet have to give up ground on the basis of scepticism, possibly the most irrelevant of early western philosophy.

--
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself

On faith. (3.66 / 2) (#4)
by it certainly is on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 09:56:43 PM EST

It's not a matter of "picking a side". You're on a journey, you don't have a map and you haven't even decided where to go yet. So you wander round in circles. I suppose you could stand still and declare that to be your destination, but that would be unadventurous.

I dislike how you write "Atheists and Christians". Atheists are not anti-christian. They are not against christianity. They are not defined by their relationship to christianity. They disbelieve in all gods equally and fairly. They are very happy to aid christians wherever they can, despite their disagreement on spiritual matters. We're all on this planet together, we only have one chance at life, let's make the best of it.

You're committed to the view of not committing to having a view.

It is not possible to be objective about religion. It cannot be smelt, measured or prodded. It is a metaphysical construction and you cannot possibly analyse it outwith your own belief model.

Oh, and atheists can happily acknowledge any historical accuracy in the bible, or any other religious document. They just disagree over the "god did it" conjectures. In fact, most atheists like the bible, it was the catalyst for the spread of written language throughout Europe.

kur0shin.org -- it certainly is

Godwin's law [...] is impossible to violate except with an infinitely long thread that doesn't mention nazis.

because of the many reasons for fence sitting. (4.50 / 4) (#5)
by jeduthun on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 09:59:44 PM EST

I have observed that many people, when faced with a complex issue, tend to progress very predictably through the following three stages:

  1. Fence-sitting. "I don't know very much about the issue, so I will not make any strong statements about it—they would probably be unfounded. I am wishy-washy by necessity."
  2. Zealotry. "I just learned about the issue, and I think that one side is clearly the right side. I don't see how people on the other side can make their claims. What a bunch of self-deceived morons."
  3. Fence-sitting. "I just learned even more about the issue, and now I can see from multiple perspectives. The issue is not as simple as I thought, and each side has a few good points. I can't take a strong stance with a given side because I don't agree with any one side completely."
The fact is that most Americans are at stage 1 or stage 2. Since that's all they know, when they see you fence-sitting at stage 3, they assume that you are still a poor, uninformed soul sitting at stage 1, unwilling to contemplate the issues enough to take a stance.

Counter-example to your Iraq stance being OK (3.66 / 2) (#8)
by alevin on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 10:19:12 PM EST

Nazi Germany, 1942 [1]. You are a German soldier, and have been ordered to file a shipment of Jews off a train from the East of the country into a work camp. The train doors are open, the Jews come out, screaming in horror and begging for your mercy. You hesitate to act. Your superior officer orders you to perform your duties or he will shoot you and do them himself. You take the stance that you can see the plight of the Jews and their suffering, but you also give validation to the military's duties in national security and standing up for your race.

1. Invoking Godwin's Law does not invalidate this counter-example, sorry.
--
alevin

i find that fence sitters (3.00 / 1) (#9)
by VoxLobster on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 10:22:05 PM EST

tend to fall into two groups: 1. The uninformed and 2. The overinformed.
  1. Uninformed fence sitters don't believe they have enough info to make a choice.
  2. Overinformed fence sitters have so much information, they aren't able to sort it out and make a choice.
At least, that's my experience.  What's really terrible is the uninformed person that takes sides...like in your example...they people who say "Grow some balls" are almost always uninformed, and simply trying to provoke you into taking their side.

VoxLobster
I was raised by a cup of coffee! -- Homsar

because americans (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by crazycanuck on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 11:07:32 PM EST

are illogical extremists

see the "with us or against us" doctrine.

Good diary. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by pocide on Sat Jun 21, 2003 at 11:20:14 PM EST

This theory is dumb because it ignores the great possibility of gradiation between two or more points. On kuro5hin, if you decide not to take a side on an issue, it's probably because each side is a complete sophistry and absurd beyond all known absurdity at close inspection.


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What's wrong with being a fence sitter? | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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