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Sourdough Success!

By rusty in Culture
Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 01:59:31 PM EST
Tags: Food (all tags)
Food

I have been working for nearly two months now on a top-secret1 bread project. Previously known only as "Frisco," the few details that did leak out were sketchy at best. Stories of mutating biological agents, smelly goop, and some reports of initial failure left bread analysts stymied, puzzled, and frankly, worried.

But at last the truth can be revealed. I have been making sourdough. And at last, I have succeeded! [Insert evil laughter here.]


Now maybe some of you think you've made sourdough. "How hard is that?" you are thinking. "You just mix the packet with a little water, throw in some yeast, and bake it up. What's he going on about?" I'm not talking about that kind of sourdough. I mean first-principles, grow-your-own-starter-from-scratch, prairie style sourdough. The point was not so much to produce the bread, as to explore the process by which you can actually make good bread with nothing but flour, water, and time.2

A few of you may still be with me. If you've ever tried to grow your own starter, you have probably gone through much the same process, and it ain't easy.

The article that started me off was John Ross's Sourdough Baking: The Basics. I've read a lot more sourdough stuff since then, but that article pretty much covers it and has provided the most consistently accurate information I've been able to find anywhere. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so don't believe anything you haven't actually tried. Ross makes the starter process seem a little easier than it actually turns out to be, but otherwise, the instructions he gives are spot-on.

What's Sourdough?

Sourdough is bread made without processed yeast. It's not without yeast, as there is yeast aplenty. But the yeast doesn't come from a jar or a cake or a packet. You grow your own yeast by mixing flour and water, and letting it sit around on a counter for a while. There's yeast in flour already, there just isn't much of it. So you have to provide an environment that's friendly to yeast growth, and you have to feed it to encourage the yeasties to multiply and thrive. Luckily yeast eats flour, so all you have to do to feed it is add more flour and water.

The other thing that grows in a sourdough starter is lactobacillus. The bacteria (which are similar to the bacteria that make yogurt and cheese) form a symbiotic relationship with the yeast, eating yeast digestion products, and making the batter very acidic, which kills all the other microorganisms that are floating around in the air and water and everything else. Yeast (at least the kinds you want) can live fine in this acid environment, but nothing much else can, so the bacteria act as a preservative for your starter. The acid produced by these bacteria are also what gives sourdough bread its distinctive yummy taste.

Growing the Starter

I began my starter with whole-grain flour, since that's reported to have more wild yeast mixed in with it than the more heavily processed white flour. Actually, most sourdough resources say that rye flour is best of all, since it has a lot of yeast, and also has a lot of the glucose that the yeast like to eat readily available. But you can get a starter going with any kind of flour at all.

The way you make a starter is to mix some flour and some water into a sticky paste. The proportions aren't too important -- you should aim for a ratio of around 1 to 1 flour to water by weight, or roughly 3 parts flour to 2 parts water if you're measuring by volume. The water has to be below 120 degrees (this and all temperatures in Fahrenheit). Higher than that will kill the yeast. Heat is basically the only thing that kills yeast, so a little cold is better than a little warm. Eighty degrees seems to be ideal, so the water should feel about the same temperature as your skin.

Mix the flour and water, put it in something with a lid that can allow pressure to vent (a Bell canning jar with a loosened top is ideal, the wide-mouthed kind is even more ideal since it's easier to clean) and plop it on your counter.

Now wait. A long time.

Feeding the Starter

What's going to happen is, the wild yeast that's already lurking dormant in your flour will wake up in this warm friendly water bath, and discover that it's surrounded by glorious food. It will immediately start to eat the flour, excrete yeast's traditional digestion products, alcohol and carbon dioxide, and make lots of babies.

After a while, the yeast will have eaten up all (or most) of the flour you started with. It will run out of food, and billions of yeasts will die. Buddhists halfway across the world will wince at the death cries of your yeast. You don't want that to happen. So you've got to feed it.

Feeding a starter just means you dump out half of it, replace that half with a fresh mixture of flour and water, and stir thoroughly. This gives your yeasts fresh food to eat, and prevents the horror of a yeast famine. You should do this at least every twenty four hours. At the start, it won't look like anything's happening. Feed it anyway. After a few days, you'll start to see bubbles in your starter, and it'll have a smell to it. Not a bad smell exactly -- mine smells kind of fruity and alcoholic. If it smells downright bad, then something might have gone wrong. But it probably won't.

Starter Lessons I Learned the Hard Way

Eventually, when you've got a good strong starter, you can store it in the fridge and feed it weekly. But don't rush to this point. I refrigerated mine way too soon, and had to de-refrigerate it and put more time into getting it growing properly.

In my opinion, you should leave your starter out at room temperature and feed it daily for at least a month, and probably much more. This will give it plenty of time to gain the rising power that you need from it, and will give you time to get to know your starter, and learn how long it takes to activate, and how long it will stay active for. These things are very important when the time comes to bake with it. So leave that fridge alone for a while.

Another key point that I didn't see emphasized enough elsewhere is that your starter will need to be able to at least double its own volume. This should be obvious, since it has to be powerful enough to make your bread rise. But it didn't occur to me for quite a while. So a few bubbles and a sour smell is not enough! That's a good beginning, but you've still got a long way to go. I found that the scientific approach worked well. I'd feed the starter, then mark on the side of the jar where it was when I had just fed it. Every hour or so thereafter, I would mark again at the level the contents of the jar had reached. This gives you a nice time-lapse view of how active your starter is, and when it's slow or fast.

My starter, for example, sits pretty still for an hour after feeding. Then it starts to lift, gaining a little in the second hour, a lot in the third hour, and a lot in the fourth hour. At about hour five, it slows down, and just maintains for a couple more hours. Altogether, it increases in volume about 150% by hour five. At about eight hours, it has exhausted the food supply, and starts to fall. This information lets me get a good idea how long I'll have to let the bread dough rise for it to be fully risen (which is about four or five hours, and no more than eight).

And a final starter lesson: I began with whole wheat flour, as mentioned above. For a while, I continued to feed it wheat flour. This led to abject bread failure number one (see below) and a starter that clearly had some life going on, but wasn't really jumping out of the jar. Eventually, I transitioned over to feeding it white flour, and this made a huge difference. While they may have come from wheat flour, my starter yeasties really like to eat white flour. Perhaps the finer milling makes more of the food available faster? I don't know, but I would recommend transitioning any starter to white flour feed after a week or so. Mixing flour types in your starter won't harm it. It's all just glucose to the yeast.

Failure

Attempts one and two to make actual bread from my starter were abject failures. I learned something from each though. Mainly, I learned that my starter wasn't ready yet, but that's not all.

Attempt number one was made far too early. My starter didn't have nearly the CO2 production power it needed to actually rise a dough. I ended up with a rock-hard lump of petrified flour. But I also learned that the traditional form of a sourdough loaf (a dome shape, basically) requires a pretty stiff dough to hold its shape for the long rising process. If you're accustomed to making yeast bread in a loaf pan, you'll want your dough to be a lot firmer than you're used to making. Of course, you can make sourdough in any shape you like. But I wanted the dome loaf, so that's something to note.

Attempt number two was made later on, when my starter had more power, but still not enough. I tried to make rolls, thinking the smaller pieces of dough would have an easier time rising, but no dice. Here too, I re-learned the stiff dough lesson. The rising process of sourdough also tends to make the dough progressively more wet, as gluten is consumed and alcohol excreted, so a very stiff dough will soften over time. If it starts out exactly as wet as you want it to finish up, it will end up far too soft, and will collapse. This is a totally unfamiliar experience in commercial-yeast baking, and very important to note.

Success at last!

After failures one and two, I decided to concentrate on the starter. So for a good month, I left it on the counter, fed it every day, and watched it pretty carefully. This was also the period when I transitioned to feeding it white flour.

A few days ago I gave it a feed in the mid afternoon. It rose pretty well, approximately doubling its volume. Before I went to bed that night, I didn't feed it again but I gave it a thorough stir. The next morning I looked at the jar and realized that my stir had prompted unknown heights of expansion. The high-tide line on the inside of the glass, where the starter had risen to before it fell back again, was almost three times the original level of the starter. This was something I hadn't ever seen.

I went through a few more feeding cycles to get a sense of how long everything took. I identified the timeline described earlier, and found that it was very consistent across feedings. Finally, it was ready.

My bread recipe was a slightly modified version of Ross's basic recipe in the article that started it all. It went as follows:

  1. Add a cup of water and a cup of flour to the starter and let it go through about three-quarters of a cycle. This should be the point when the yeast is most awake and active.
  2. Mix two cups of the proofed starter (called "sponge") from step one with 2 tablespoons of olive oil, and 4 teaspoons of sugar.
  3. Add flour one half cup at a time, until the dough just holds together.
  4. Add 2 teaspoons of salt. You don't want to do this too early, because salt is bad for yeast, but you need salt in there for the bread to rise properly, so do it about halfway through adding flour.
  5. Add more flour until you have a stiff bread dough. Ross calls for three cups of flour. I found that after two cups, I had a dough so dry I had to put in a little more sponge to moisten it. So the amount of flour all depends on how wet your starter is (which will vary a lot) and what kind of flour you're using. This just has to be done by feel.
  6. Now knead for at least fifteen minutes. Like any bread, you need to develop the gluten to make little elastic pockets for the yeast to fill with CO2.

That's all there is to the dough. When I had a good elastic dough, I stretched and rolled it into a ball with a good tight skin on the outside, and placed it on the pan I intended to bake it on. I put a large glass bowl upside down over it, to keep the moisture in without actually touching the dough. I then put this whole thing in the oven, which was warmed slightly by its pilot light. You should be able to rise it wherever you normally rise bread.

After you make the dough, make sure you've got some extra sponge left. Give this a feed and put it back in your jar, because it's your starter for next time.

Then you wait, much longer than you'd wait for processed-yeast dough. My bread took about four hours to rise all the way. You can tell if it's risen by poking it gently. When it's still rising, it will feel very tight, and the dent you make will spring right back from the gas pressure inside. When it's done rising your finger dent will stay poked-in.

When the rise is done, slit the top with a sharp serrated knife dipped in cold water, and bake! Ross calls for starting in a cold oven which you let heat up to 350 degrees with the bread in it. I simply popped it in a 500 degree oven, but honestly I'm not that happy with how the crust came out, so I might try his suggestion next time. You are free to choose your own baking method.

When it's golden brown and sounds hollow when thumped, it's done. Let it cool completely before you cut it. Then slice and enjoy some of the best goddamn toast you will ever have.

Only the Beginning

This article just touches on the bare bones of sourdough. You can make any kind of bread as a sourdough, you can use the stuff for rolls, pizza dough, or any other bread product you can imagine. There's a whole bunch of sites with much more info about sourdough out there. One of the best I've found is Sourdough Home, which is a little hard to navigate but has a lot of useful info. Caveat lector though, as I've found many sites perpetuating untrue sourdough myths and giving some really dumb advice.

The above is also by far not the easiest way to obtain good sourdough bread. In fact, it's probably the hardest way. Easier ways include going to your local grocery store or bakery and buying some, purchasing or getting a proven starter from a friend, or buying a sourdough mix. But if you're interested in the process of baking as much as the results, stubborn enough to want to make something that is wholly yours, and perhaps have a bit of a scientific turn of mind, you might find sourdough baking a fun and satisfying hobby.

____
1 Not really.
2 Technically, the actual bread as baked also contains salt, oil, and a little sugar, but those things are not necessary, merely desirable.

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Poll
I bake bread
o No 39%
o Yes, but never sourdough 37%
o I've made yeast bread, and sourdough from a mix 10%
o I've grown my own starter 10%
o I have a stable of starters from all over the world 1%

Votes: 156
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o 1
o 2
o Sourdough Baking: The Basics
o article that started it all
o Sourdough Home
o 1 [2]
o 2 [2]
o Also by rusty


Display: Sort:
Sourdough Success! | 179 comments (161 topical, 18 editorial, 0 hidden)
You mention (4.00 / 2) (#2)
by sasquatchan on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 10:36:22 AM EST

the acidophilus/lactobacillus bacteria, but where does it come from ? I understand the natural/"wild" yeasts in the flour and what not, but the other bacteria gotta come from somewhere, and intuition says bacteria that live off of lactose/milk sugar wouldn't naturally be found on flour -- no food there ..

I mention this because most every sourdough recipe I've seen (never tried, though we've gotten starter before) lists milk as an ingredient -- you get the starter from an evil friend or grandma (like those friendship cakes, ugh), mix it daily, on odd days add 1/2cup flour and water, every 4th day add 1/4 cup sugar, and on 7th day add milk, on the 14th day it's usually ready to go.

So where's the beef ?
-- The internet is not here for your personal therapy.

I cannot in all honesty support this effort (3.83 / 12) (#9)
by marcos on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:08:36 AM EST

I have been working actively for the PETB (people for the ethical treatment of bacteria) in the last few years, and we very much condemn the senseless murder of bacteria.

At least 5 million living things thrust into a gas oven and burnt to death. Does this remind you of anything else?

Say NO to genocide against bacteria! Your dog is a pet, but remember, you have a pet that actively takes care of you (in your mouth, for example). That is your PET B, and the PET B is an important pet.

Shortly actually, we will be airing our video on Al Jazeera showing the alternative pets being killed in the thousands, and not a soul protesting. I personally drafted a letter to Arafat asking him to remove the bacteria from the suicide bombers mouths and other orifices before their being sent on suicide missions. The men might have volunteered, but did the Bacteria indicate their willingness to die?

Say NO!

also see (3.33 / 3) (#10)
by chu on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:09:17 AM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/comments/2003/3/15/396/25012/138#138 - hysterical account of sourdough making and near divorce

only leisure class can afford this sourdough crap (1.66 / 6) (#11)
by sye on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:09:29 AM EST

For people who have a life to earn, i highly recommend "Spring River Villa"'s fish head tofu soup . The trick for foreigners who never liked bones or the taste of bone marrows ( according to oriental wisdom, bone marrows are most nutritious ) is to open the can half way so fish head remains in the can when tofu and soup are being poured out. You have to boil the soup. It tastes good while hot and bad when it gets cold.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
commentary - For a better sye@K5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ripple me ~~> ~allthingsgo: gateway to Garden of Perfect Brightess in crypto-cash
rubbing u ~~> ~procrasti: getaway to HE'LL
Hey! at least he was in a stable relationship. - procrasti
Enter K5 via my lair

Making bread (1.58 / 24) (#15)
by A Proud American on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:16:32 AM EST

Folks, the only people who actually make their own bread are the Wonder family.  Anyone else who attempts it, especially by hand and from scratch, seriously needs to examine other hobbies.  Their time, energy, and money could all be much better spent helping a charity or leading a church group.

Bread making is a myth perpetuated by the incessant giving, re-giving, and re-regiving of break making machines as wedding and birthday presents.  See Old School for more details.

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


White flour (5.00 / 2) (#23)
by KWillets on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:49:55 AM EST

It's likely that the microfauna are benefitting from the diastatic enzymes in the white flour, which break down starch into more digestible glucose and maltose.  For some reason whole grain flours omit the barley malt that is typically added to bread flour.

I've started adding 1 tsp. malted wheat to my whole wheat bread, and the difference is dramatic.

Very sweet. (3.00 / 2) (#24)
by porkchop_d_clown on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:52:30 AM EST

Nice. Beware all your baking friends though - the y'll be hitting you up for starter.

BTW - would you send me half if I paid the fex ex fees?

:-P


--
Tablet is the wrong medicinal analogy: suppository more adequately describes the Smart Display experience. - Rupert Goodwins


Why is this getting positive votes? (1.87 / 24) (#29)
by A Proud American on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 12:19:54 PM EST

As of right now, the poll shows that at least 80% of all voters do not make their own bread.  Yet, I see that the majority of positive votes are for Front Page status for this piece.

What gives?  Is this just changing our priorities to suit Rusty's article?  I like him as much as the next guy, but if 4 out of 5 do-it-yourself Kuro5hin types don't even make bread, why should this article be displayed on our Front Page (it's not Rusty's Front Page, it's the Community's Front Page; we pay the bills here).

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


Sourdough (3.33 / 3) (#30)
by engine16 on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 12:20:49 PM EST

is the greatest bread ever developed. I cook it daily. +1.

Ape Infinitum

Heat is not the only thing toxic to yeast (4.00 / 1) (#33)
by x3nophil3 on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 12:42:54 PM EST

SALT!!!

After some bad bread mishaps, I have to add that salt will kill yeast. When making bread always sift the salt into the flour before adding the yeast.

When I first started making bread, I made the mistake of dumping the water + yeast solution directly into a well in the flour wich had salt in it. Dead yeast makes for disappointing bread (matza anyone?).

Organic flours (4.80 / 5) (#35)
by x3nophil3 on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 12:52:33 PM EST

Another side tip. If you have a health food store nearby, organic flour is a whole new level of bread experience. I'm no organic food zealot, but unbleached organic bread flour yields bread that is so much more flavourful than heavily processed mass-produced flour. Bread is all about impurities.

And somehow the crazy 'organic food' markup doesn't hurt so much when your buying something that's under 1$ a pound.

Question for the trolls (2.22 / 9) (#40)
by Terence J Crewcut on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 12:58:47 PM EST

For a while I kept seeing people asking about the CMF, but I haven't seen that around lately. Seems like a story bound for the Front Page would be the ideal place to do that kind of trolling. Not that I'm suggesting or condoning that--personally I think rusty's doing a bang-up job. I'm just trying to stay hip the current trolling trends. Sorry for the intrusion and thanks in advance.

Starter questions (4.33 / 3) (#49)
by phunbalanced on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 02:47:51 PM EST

What I don't understand, is do you use all the starter to make your sponge?  Or can you just start with extra starter so that when you make your sponge you have some left?

I'm a bit confused how you keep the colony going, so that you don't have to start from scratch everytime.  Maybe you're supposed to start from scratch everytime?

Best...Title...EVER (5.00 / 7) (#51)
by BenJackson on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 02:54:17 PM EST

Sourdough Success! (Culture)

Am I the only one who cracked up at this? Sorry I missed my chance to make this an editorial comment.

Huge number of cooking/food articles (4.42 / 7) (#52)
by Siddhi on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 02:54:31 PM EST

Personally I like it. Maybe food deserves its own section ? These topics seem to be always popular, they generate good, wholesome discussion and are fun and interesting. It looks like all of us geeks have a hidden, supressed fascination with cooking :)

I never used to cook very much (always used to eat out). I read some cooking articles on k5, and thought, yeah maybe I should give this a try. I now cook dinner every day (almost) to the point of being deeply interested in cooking.

More to come? (4.00 / 7) (#64)
by electricmonk on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 05:34:46 PM EST

I'm waiting for Part II: Rusty Gets a Yeast Infection.

--
"There are only so many ways one can ask [Jon Katz] what it's like to be buried to the balls in a screaming seven-year-old" - Ian

Editorial (4.75 / 4) (#68)
by ComradeFork on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 06:07:32 PM EST

It's articles like this that I actually read Kuro5hin for. Rather than the huge amount of politics, I much prefer reading articles on how to actually do things, not just form opinions.

So, all you article writers out there! Write more constructive articles like this one (hopefully about programming language -grin-), and you get free +1 FPs! Not the +1 FP rusty payed me to do :P

The Dear Leader.... (2.00 / 1) (#70)
by Tezcatlipoca on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 07:05:03 PM EST

... has gone bananas.

Or maybe he just managed to disguise his true nature of tortured frustrated chef long enough.

Might is right
Freedom? Which freedom?

Acetone (5.00 / 2) (#75)
by MonkeyMan on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 08:31:38 PM EST

Back when I kept sourdough, occasionally the starter would pick up some bug from the environment and start smelling like acetone and would have to be thrown away. So if you are badly addicted to sourdough you might want to divide your starter into two containers and alternate between them.

How long until it's NOT a daily excercise? (3.00 / 1) (#80)
by tzanger on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 09:47:28 PM EST

Once you have your sponge and you're happy with it (and are storing it in the fridge) how often do you feed it? Do you let it come up to room temp to feed or do you feed it and put it back in the fridge right away? How do you properly care and feed your sponge AFTER it's healthy?



I think I speak for a lot of K5ers (4.33 / 3) (#86)
by groove10 on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:59:31 PM EST

When I say that I wish I had enough time, motivation, and supplies to bake my own bread. I am a carbo-fiend and I have loved sourdough bread ever since I was a little kid growing up in California. There was this bakery in Bishop, CA called Schots I beleive that made some ridiculously good sourdough. Ah, rusty, I'm jealous, and hungry. Good article. I think I'll save it and try to make my own some day. Oh BTW, does sourdough come out differently if you use a prepackaged starter and cut the lead time down considerably?
Do you like D&D? How bout text-based MMORPGs? You need to try Everwars. It's better than shooting smack!
question (2.00 / 1) (#90)
by Trollaxor on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 12:56:16 AM EST

did you use rain water?

if ur flour is low on yeast (3.00 / 3) (#97)
by squidinkcalligraphy on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 01:22:51 AM EST

Consider obtaining some from other non-supermarket sources. A breadshop I used to work in got their starter started from grapes in a vineyard the owners had their honeymoon at (come to think of it, I don't really want to know what else went in the starter).

Eeeew.

But anyway... back to the story; grapes have wild yeast on them. This is how wine ferments. So you can obtain some of this yeast by crushing some freshly picked grapes (I wouldn't trust ones bought from the store) and including them in the starter (also adds some sugar for the yeast to eat). Another way a friend suggested was to leave a bowl of dough (flour+water) underneath a grapevine for a day or so; the natural yeasts should fall into the bowl an help ur dough along.

I am curious as to the difference in taste between sourdoughs of different yeast origins.

An identity card is better that no identity at all

HAHA! (4.60 / 5) (#103)
by transient0 on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 03:00:32 AM EST

I get it! the subject is "Culture" because it's a yeast culture. oh man... that's funny.
---------
lysergically yours
Natural yeast tricks (4.00 / 1) (#106)
by gnovos on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 03:54:13 AM EST

Natural yeast lives everywhere, in the air, on your shoes, between the buttons on the TV remote, everywhere.  So if you want, get yousefl some white flower, spread it out flat on a cookie sheet and just let it sit in a dry, open but not windy, place for a day or so.  Then start the sponge, and you'll have "yeasted" your flour a little more than when it was in the bag.

A Haiku: "fuck you fuck you fuck/you fuck you fuck you fuck you/fuck you fuck you snow" - JChen
I hate sourdough bread (2.66 / 3) (#108)
by bh213 on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 05:28:09 AM EST

When I came to San Francisco, I didn't even know it existed. When I bought it, I though there was something wrong with it. Anyway, I learned to avoid it. Some of my friends discovered, that if you put mixed egg and slice of this bread in pan and let it fry for a while, it becomes eatable.

Ah, (none / 0) (#111)
by Akshay on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 05:50:57 AM EST

... but we're in a post-modern age, so unless this was an allegory on Iraq, it's an effort at understanding a pre-modern-age culture. You know, the way you learn about the Amazon by going to Disneyland.

This is the most boring article I've read (2.66 / 3) (#112)
by synik on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 06:34:20 AM EST

Rusty, we don't pay you $70,000 p/a to spend months making bread...

---
The human race has suffered for centuries and is still suffering from the mental disorder known as religion, and atheism is the only physician that will be able to effect a permanent cure. -- Joseph Lewis
Great article (3.00 / 1) (#120)
by cestmoi on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 09:41:15 AM EST

I've heard it said, but do not know if it's true, that San Francisco Sourdough is unique due to the yeast found floating around the bay. That is, it's not the wild yeast in the flour but yeast that's peculiar to San Francisco's air.

Is that possible? Sounds a bit parochial or, in a more cynical vein, like marketing hype but then again,...?

Awesome artice! (none / 0) (#124)
by jabber on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 11:07:50 AM EST

I can't wait to fail a few times before getting this right. Sounds like a fun project.

The "from scratch" approach to herding your own yeast appeals to me the most. Rustic. Now, can we get some lambic to go with the yummy sourdough?

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

first (none / 0) (#129)
by mincus on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 12:07:12 PM EST

i think that things like this are perfect for the site... its nice to have some (for us) crazy experiments to try.

now, I began my starter yesterday in the 3/2 ratio you suggested and its sitting now but... I thought that it would be more watery.  It looks more like a lump right now actually.  Am I missing something, or am I right on target and I should just keep at it?

It is all about quality (4.00 / 1) (#132)
by ColeH on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 12:23:38 PM EST

If you think the bread you buy in the store is anything like fresh, homemade bread then I think you have never had any. I never buy bread from the store (I use a breadmaker) for the simple reason that homemade is much, much better.

Curses! (none / 0) (#138)
by /dev/trash on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 01:57:21 PM EST

I have printed out your article and am planning to start my starter tonite.  I do hope it works out well.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site
motivation (4.75 / 4) (#140)
by CodeBhikkhu on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 03:29:08 PM EST

I know this is a troll but I'll bite. Some of this may look like a straw man arguement and maybe it is.

I believe that executing skills such as this are very important to people in this modern age.

If one has to ask the question "what's the real motivation besides some obcession[sic] with hippidom?" one is obliged to ask some other questions as well.

Why should people ever build things with their own hands? Why should people ever cook any of their own food when they can pull it all out of the freezer MRE? Why should people have their own gardens, grow their own flowers from the seeds? Why would anyone ever write a piece of software on their own when they can actually buy something that does the same thing? Why would I ever want to make my own clothes rather than buy them from a store? Why should I buy my tools from the local ACE Hardware rather than from the Mega-Huge Home Despot?

Some people don't want to live their lives as blind consumers and don't want others to have to sacrifice their ideals and their trade and their art to stay alive. If we don't support arts and craftsmanship it will die and those people who practiced these arts will be forced to work in jobs that don't utilize their skills.

Providing these service, making homemade bread and offering it to people, offering the methods (the art and craft of it) is an act that strengthens community. Buying bread from the Megalo-Mart grocery store doesn't strengthen community it kills it.

For some people, being mindful of where the things they consume come from is important. Who made this, what were they paid, what were their working conditions? Why did they make this? How was this made?

For some people, knowing about the content of their food is important. If you don't think this is important, ask someone who grows wheat for a living if they'd like to eat the product they grow. They use so many damn chemicals on that stuff that they are scared of it. (My friend grew up as a wheat farmer.)

Eating something made mindfully sits a lot better with my conscience than blindlessly consuming something that was made by a machine or by an underpaid worker who hates their job of sitting in front of a food processing line in a factory.

If you can buy things like organic flour from your local food co-op you are probably supporting a niche farmer (maybe even local), not some huge corporate farm or some farmer who rapes the soil by dumping way too many chemicals into it. They rarely even rotate crops anymore, they just dump more chemicals onto the ground to compensate for the fact that they are messing with processes they don't really understand. They are polluting. Don't believe me? My grandfather died from pulmonary fibrosis induced heart failure because farm chemicals from the 50s-70s destroyed his lungs

Exercising your right and ability to make it yourself undermines the global money machine which will produce anything in any way as long as it can be sold. Do you think "Wonder" makes bread because they like making bread? NO, they do it because they can make money. Research the founder of Barnes & Noble and you'll find out why he sells books. He said that he'd have picked any business if he thought he could make tons of money off of it. (I used to work for them).

Sure you pay higher prices for quality goods made with mindfullness, but isn't it work it. This comes back to the quality vs. quantity arg.

Self sufficiency is another motivation. How many people would be up shit creek if we had problems with famine in this country like they do in other countries. When international aid drops off a sack of wheat on the doorstep of your starving family will you know how to feed them? Could you teach a hungry Iraqi how to make bread with a sack of flour?

This is important to me because acts like this, baking things, building things, etc cause me to really live in the moment while I'm doing them. Slapping a burrito in the microwave or slathering peanut butter on store bought bread doesn't bring my attention to the now. I'm probably doing it because it is fast and I think I have better ways to spend my time. What makes taking time baking bread so horrible compared to playing a computer game for instance?

This isn't about hippidom, it is about compassion for people who made the food, supporting your community versus blind consumption and presercing art and craftsmanship and the artisans and craftsman of your community and maybe even becoming one yourself or we could all just waste away in front of the television.

Of course, temper all of this with a dose of reality and realize that you can't always be mindful of everything. The effort is important.

Metta, Coda
"A week long Dalai Lama Fantasy Camp where you get to run around in red robes and eat rice and chant mantras with the Twelfth son of the Lama himself wont teach you what zen is." -- skyhook
You can't make good bread in a regular oven (5.00 / 1) (#142)
by dead pixel on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 04:25:48 PM EST

While you might have all the ingredients, you'll never get the cooking process right in a standard oven.

To get a nice brown (crispy) outside while keeping the inside moist, you need very high temperatures and short cooking times. A brick oven will easily go 1000º+, this will quickly crisp the outside and trap moisture inside giving you an almost doughy texture. I know the ones at Panera (and most bread ovens for that matter) use steam injection to accomplish this effect. A regular oven will just dry the inside while the outside is browning, more of an Easter bread texture. Same goes for Pizza, though I can usually make a fair pie if the crust is stretched very thin and I use a preheated stone (500º).

Ya Fun ! (4.00 / 1) (#143)
by thirstyfish on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 04:43:39 PM EST

There's a resturaunt in Juneau Alaska which got their starter by scraping an old cook pot from the gold rush that had been used to mix bread in.  Yeast lasts a while I guess.

Leaving the starter out in the open air is why sourdough will vary from place to place, and why San  Francisco sourdough is different from other places - different airborne yeasties.  Don't think I would want to try any bread from Los Angeles.

Here's something else to try: get a loaf of sourdough from, say, San Francisco and use the soft middle of the loaf as the basis for a new starter.  There should be enough viable yeast to get it going.  There's at least one bakery that got it that way.

Reports of playing Mozart and Bach to your yeast are wholly unsubstantiated.

Why do I get the suspicion... (2.00 / 4) (#144)
by Estanislao Martínez on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 05:15:49 PM EST

...that this story made FP mainly because rusty wrote it?

--em

alright, this rules (1.00 / 2) (#151)
by joschi on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 11:19:28 PM EST

I started my starter last night, in fact just about 24 hours ago.  i fed it *once* about 4-6 hours ago, already its *doubled* its size since i fed it.  i really expected this to take a few weeks at least.  

so here's what i did, i did the recommended 2/3 flour to warm water (~ 90 deg), stuck it in a clean pickle jar i had lieing about, but i made sure to get some real nice flour.  I live in Berkeley and hippie crap like that is plentiful :)  so i got me some organic whole rye flour, its kinda grey in color... impressive stuff.  

i'm really looking forward to making some bread with this, i might even try to make a loaf on sunday just to see if its possible :)

Celiac Sourdough (5.00 / 1) (#161)
by craigd on Sat Apr 19, 2003 at 12:16:56 PM EST

I have Celiac Disease. This means I cannot digest gluten, a protein found in wheat, barley, and rye. None of the gluten-free cookbooks I have seen have a real sourdough recipe (though several suggest adding a bit of sourdough starter to your bread as a flavoring agent), so a while ago (actually using the same article by John Ross for inspiration) I began to try to make sourdough. I'm using rice flour rather than wheat flour.

Lessons Learned

First, I had thought it would be a fairly simple matter to create the starter. Nope. When I had my starter behaving how the article said it would, it still wasn't active enough to rise properly. So I took it back out of the fridge to catch more yeast and reactivate what I had. Within a few hours, it was growing rather nicely, and filled up my jar to the brim with nice little yeasts. Now that I read what Rusty has written, I think I should try getting it even more active than that. I'm going to try baking more bread with it as soon as I have.

Second, I had thought that baking with rice flour would be a fairly simple matter of replacing the wheat flour with rice flour in the recipe, and then adding a bit of xanthan gum. The gum is to hold it together, a function normally filled by the gluten. I have since learned that unless you use a mix that is high in bean or tapioca flours, there is not enough protein in the flour for this to work. I can't stand the taste of tapioca. So my next bread will have some protein added. The standard way to do this is with egg whites or gelatin, depending on the pH of your water.

This apparently applies to all breadmaking, but especially to gluten free breads: The water you use should have a pH between 5.5 and 6.5.

The combination of mistakes I made for my first loaf gave me a bread dough that rose to about 120% of its original volume, and was so dense it would be best used as a doorstop. Gluten free dough ought to be different in the opposite direction - it should have a consistency somewhat thicker than cake batter.


A man who says little is a man who speaks two syllables.
Your next assignment, Rusty... (none / 0) (#162)
by jij on Sat Apr 19, 2003 at 01:07:04 PM EST

...should you choose to accept it, is to create the perfect loaf of salt rising bread, and send it to me.

This comment will self-destruct in 10^2 years, if not sooner.

"people who thinks quotes are witty are fucking morons" - turmeric

sourdough is yukki! (none / 0) (#176)
by Liet on Tue Apr 22, 2003 at 05:08:14 AM EST

not to mention sour, why would you want to make more of it?!!?

Good timing rusty! (none / 0) (#178)
by barooo on Tue Apr 22, 2003 at 11:15:45 AM EST

I've recently become fascinated by making bread. I picked up Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice. It's the only book I've seen to get all 5-star reviews from Amazon. The only thing I've made based on one of his formulas was pizza dough, and it was pretty tasty. Not as crunchy as I like, but it had a good taste and texture towards the edges of the pizza. It was my first attempt at utilizing the "baking stone" pizza technology and I think I might've needed a hotter oven.

I've been following his recipe for a seed culture. I'm currently in Jamaica so my girlfriend is feeding "hooch" every couple of days. She says he's doubling pretty quickly and rising nicely. I started hooch with some organic stone ground rye flour from Wild Oats market, and I've been feeding him unbleached high gluten bread flour from King Arthur Flour, plus every other feeding he gets a 1/2 tsp or so of barley malt flour (diastatic malt it's called on the bag, but it's not the same as the diastatic malt that KAF sells).

My first attempt started well. It doubled within 36 hours, but after that two weeks of alternately feeding, not feeding, stirring, putting in a warm place, putting in a cool place, and swearing got no activity beyond a nice sour smell/taste. But it wouldn't rise at all. So I bleached my glass beaker, boiled it, and started over. This one, while I'm being much less precise with, seems to be working better. I think I might have had some antibacterial dish-soap residue in the beaker the first time. I hate that crap, but we have a costco-sized container of it left. I'm convinced it's breeding resistant bacteria...

When I return from Jamaica I will attempt to make a bread from hooch. I think I should have decent luck. I'm curious to see if native Kansas City microfauna produce decent bread.

Now I'm thinking about buying a mixer. I love mixing dough by hand, but I suspect I'd be more likely to whip up a batch if I had a mixer. I'm eying a Kitchen Aid "artisan" 5qt. mixer. They seem like the best value. Going up to a 6 quart is almost 33% more expensive. Unless I'm making an enourmous rustic boule (e.g., pain a la Poilaine) 5 qts would be plenty big.


--
One more drink, and I'll move on
"Grace is Gone", Dave Matthews Band
Nice Trol but (none / 0) (#182)
by monkeymind on Wed Apr 23, 2003 at 06:22:22 AM EST

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein If you sit on your ass and let others do your living for you, you don't win...

I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it.

My progress (none / 0) (#185)
by skim123 on Wed Apr 23, 2003 at 03:44:56 PM EST

Four days into trying to culture yeast, I don't know if I've failed or succeeded. I followed these instructions, starting with wheat flour, and mixing in white flour. The goop has a fuity, alcohol-like smell, but I'm seeing very, very few bubbles in the goop, and no noticeable rising. Meh.

I think I'll give this batch a few more days and then perhaps try my hand at it again, maybe this time going with the organic flour.

Money is in some respects like fire; it is a very excellent servant but a terrible master.
PT Barnum


I just want to say.... THANKS! (none / 0) (#187)
by msphil on Mon May 12, 2003 at 01:40:12 PM EST

This article revived my interest in my family's starter (which has been limping along under my care, as I did not understand the process that well...).

I have since sent off for Carl's, received it, and baked three excellent loaves of bread (two with S. John Ross' basic recipe, and one cinnamon raisin loaf from the rec.food.sourdough recipe FAQ) with it. (It also showed me what a starter should be like.)

I've also set about reviving my family's starter (looks like the yeast is either very weak or dead), including an experimental cross to see if I can get one going with Carl's yeast and my family's bacteria. I rather like the flavor of my starter, but the rise is weak and slow at the moment.

Just as a note, the best place in my house to let the bread rise so far has proven to be the top of my monitor :-)

So, a couple weeks after the article is posted, I'm still doing stuff with it. And loving it. So... thanks!

Sourdough Success! | 179 comments (161 topical, 18 editorial, 0 hidden)
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