Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Living with Schizoaffective Disorder (Part II)

By MichaelCrawford in Culture
Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 06:59:52 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

Here I continue the discussion of my mental illness that I started in Part I of this three part series.

Being schizoaffective is like having manic depression and schizophrenia at the same time. Part I described what it's like to be bipolar. In Part II I discuss my schizoid experiences, something I haven't written about much before.

In particular I explain visual and auditory hallucinations, dissociation and paranoia.


Contents

Part I:

Part II:

Part III:

The Heebee-Jeebies
[top]

Be careful when you wrestle with monsters, lest you thereby become one. For, if you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss also stares into you.
-- Friedrich Nietsche

Now I want to tell you about the symptoms that schizoaffective disorder shares with schizophrenia - the disorders in thought.

I find this difficult. It seems I haven't ever written much, publicly anyway, about what it's like to be schizoid. I think right now will be the first time I have written about it at any length. I have found it difficult to communicate my experience as compellingly as I had set out to do. It's taken some time to understand why.

The problem I have is that it is dangerous for me to have the kind of experience that would allow me to write vividly about my illness. I have found in the past that to experience memories of my symptoms with too much clarity causes me to experience the actual symptoms again. It can happen that simply reflecting on my past in a deep way can bring about the insanity. This happened once during a time when I was corresponding regularly with a bipolar friend, and when I told her what it was like to really remember, she very anxiously pleaded with me to stop, let go and forget lest I be drawn into the darkness again.

After some reflection I realize that the danger is in remembering the feelings I have had when I've been symptomatic. There is no problem with recalling the events, looking at old photos from the time, or reading what I wrote when I was wigging. What is dangerous is remembering the feelings by actually feeling them again. Remembering that I felt afraid is OK, what is not is to actually feel the same fear I once felt. To write the best I could hope to I would have to recall the actual feelings again, and I think it is best I not do that.

For that reason I have found it necessary to approach this topic with a certain protective detachment that has resulted in the clinical tone my article has so far. I hope you can forgive me for it. I'm finding it a little more difficult to stay so detached as I write about being schizoid. Maybe I will be able to write more effectively here but just between you and me I find the experience more than a little frightening.

For a long time I have found it easy to admit to being manic depressive. I do it casually sometimes, even flippantly. Even before I decided to go public with my illness I was comfortable telling trusted friends that I was manic depressive. But I have always been much more reluctant to own up to actually being schizoaffective. What I said before, that I describe my illness as I do because no one understands schizoaffective disorder, is only part of the truth. The full truth is that even now, after so many years, I still find it hard to face the part of myself that is schizophrenic.

Many manic depressives will tell you that despite the pain it causes that there is something romantic about being manic depressive. As I said manic depressives are known to be intelligent and creative people.

However, despite its extremes, the symptoms of manic depression are mostly familiar human experiences. It is not hard to find completely healthy people who act just like I do when I'm either hypomanic or moderately depressed. It's just the way they are. Psychotic mania and psychotic depression are not so familiar, but they are different in degree, not in kind.

The schizoid symptoms I experience are just plain... different.

This really gives me a serious case of the creeps.

Hearing Voices
[top]

Yet it is in place to appeal to the fact that madness was accounted no shame nor disgrace by men of old who gave things their names; otherwise they would not have connected that greatest of arts, whereby the future is discerned, with this very word 'madness', and named it accordingly.
-- Plato Phaedrus

Auditory hallucinations are the key sign of schizophrenia. After the summer I was diagnosed, when I related my experience to a fellow UCSC student who studied psychology, he said that the fact that I heard voices by itself made some psychologists consider me schizophrenic.

Everyone has an inner voice that they talk to themselves with in their thoughts. Hearing voices is not like that. You can tell that your inner voice is your own thinking, that it's not something you're actually hearing someone saying. Auditory hallucinations sound like they're coming from "outside your head". Until you come to understand what they are, you cannot distinguish them from someone actually talking to you.

I haven't heard voices very much, but the few times I have is quite enough for me. While I was in the Intensive Care Unit at the Alhambra Community Psychiatric Center that summer of '85, I heard a woman shout my name - simply "Mike!" It was distant and echoey, so I thought she was shouting my name from down the hall, and I would go look for her and find no one.

Other people hear voices whose words express much more disturbing things. It is common for hallucinations to be harshly critical, to say that one is worthless, or deserves to die. Sometimes their voices keep up a running commentary about what's going on. Sometimes the voices discuss the inner thoughts of the person who hears them, so they think everyone around can hear their private thoughts discussed aloud.

(One might or might not have a visual hallucination of someone actually doing the speaking - the voices are often disembodied, but for some reason that doesn't make them any less real to those who hear them. Usually those who hear voices find some way to rationalize why the speech does not have a speaker, for example by believing that the sound is being projected to them over a distance via some kind of radio.)

The words I heard weren't disturbing in themselves. For the most part, all my voice ever said was "Mike!" But that was enough - it wasn't what the voice said, it was the intention that I knew to be behind it. I knew that the woman shouting my name was coming to kill me, and I feared her like nothing I've ever feared.

When I was brought to Alhambra CPC, I was on a "72 hour hold". Basically I was in for three days of observation, to allow myself to be studied by the staff to determine whether lengthier treatment was warranted. I had the understanding that if I just stayed cool for three days I would be out with no questions asked, and so although I was profoundly manic I stayed calm and behaved myself. Mostly I either watched TV with the other patients or tried to soothe myself by pacing up and down the hall.

But when my hold was up and I asked to leave, my psychiatrist came to me to tell me he wanted to stay longer. When I protested that I'd met my obligation, he replied that if I didn't stay voluntarily he would commit me involuntarily. He said something was seriously wrong with me and we needed to deal with it.

He told me I'd been hallucinating. When I denied it, his response was to ask "Do you ever hear someone call your name, and you turn, and no one is there?" And yes, I realized he was right, and I didn't want that happening, so I agreed to stay voluntarily.

Hallucinations aren't always menacing. I understand some people find what they have to say familiar and comforting, even sweet. And in fact another voice I think I heard (I can't be sure) came when I was hanging out by the nurse's station in the ICU. I heard one of the nurses ask me an inconsequential question, and I answered her only to be surprised to find her looking down at her desk, ignoring me. I think now she hadn't addressed me at all, that the question I heard was one of my voices speaking to me.

I became very determined that the voices were going to stop. They really bothered me. I worked hard to determine the difference between real people talking and my voices. After a while I was able to find a difference, although a disturbing one - the voices were more convincing to me than what real people actually said. The concreteness of my hallucinations' apparent reality always struck me immediately, before I ever heard what they said.

Some of my other experiences are this way too: the conviction of their reality always strikes me before the actual experiences do. People have often told me I should just ignore them, but I haven't had that choice, by the time I can make the decision to ignore something I have already been frightened by it.

After a while I decided I just wouldn't listen anymore. And after a short time the voices stopped. It only took a few days. When I reported this to the hospital staff, they seemed quite surprised. They didn't seem to think I should be able to do that, to just make my hallucinations go away.

Still the voices bothered me enough that for years afterwards it startled me to hear anyone call my name when I didn't expect it, especially if someone I didn't know was calling someone else who happened to be named "Mike". For example, there was someone named Mike who worked on the night shift at the Safeway grocery store in Santa Cruz when I lived there, and it would frighten me when they would call his name on the public address system, asking him to come help at the cash register.

Dissociation
[top]

At times, particularly that summer of '85, I would have the experience that I was not participating in my own life anymore, that I was an detached observer of, rather than a participant in my life.

The experience was like watching a particularly detailed movie with really high-fidelity sound and a wraparound screen. I could see and hear everything going on. I guess I was still in control of my actions in the sense that some guy who everyone else referred to as "Mike" seemed to be speaking and doing stuff from the same point of view as I was watching from - but that person was definitely somebody else. I didn't have the feeling that the part of me who was called I had anything to do with it.

At times this was frightening, but somehow it was hard to get worked up about it. The person who was feeling and exhibiting the emotions wasn't the one called I. Instead, I just sat back and passively observed the goings-on of the summer.

There was a philosophical theory that I had long been interested in, that I think I first encountered in a science fiction story I read when I was young. Although I was originally fascinated with it in a conceptual and academic sort of way, solipsism took on a terrible new importance to me that summer - I didn't believe anything was real.

Solipsism is the notion that you are the only being that exists in the Universe, and that no one else really exists, instead it is a figment of your imagination. A related concept is the idea that history never happened, that one has just this instant sprung into being with one's lifetime of memories readymade without the events in them ever having actually occurred.

At first I found this interesting to experience. I had always found ideas like this fascinating to discuss and debate with my schoolmates, and now I would talk about it with the other patients. But I found that it was no longer an interesting concept that I held at a distance, that instead I was experiencing it, and I found that reality terrible indeed.

Also related to solipsism is the fear that everything one experiences is a hallucination, that there is some other objective reality that really is happening but which one is not experiencing. Instead one fears that one is living in a fantasy. And in fact that is not far off from what many of the most ill psychiatric patients face. The concern I had is that (despite my experience of actually being in a psychiatric hospital) I wasn't really free to move around the ward and talk with the doctors and the other patients, but that I was actually strapped in a straightjacket in a padded cell somewhere, screaming incoherently with no idea of where I really was.

There. I told you this was creepy. Don't say I didn't warn you.

I once read somewhere that solipsism had been disproved. The book that claimed this didn't provide the proof though, so I didn't know what it was, and this bothered me tremendously. So I explained what solipsism was to my therapist and told him that I was upset to be experiencing it and asked him to prove to me that it was false. I was hoping he might give me a proof of reality in much the same way as we worked proofs in Calculus class at Caltech.

I was appalled at his response. He simply refused. He wasn't going to give me a proof at all. He didn't even try to argue with me that I was wrong. Now that scared me.

I had to find my own way out. But how, when I knew that I could not trust the things I heard, saw, thought or felt? When in fact my hallucinations and delusions felt much more real to me than the things that I believe now were really happening?

It took me quite a while to figure it out. I spent a lot of time thinking really hard about what to do. It was like being lost in a maze of twisty passages all alike, only where the walls were invisible and presented a barrier only to me, not to other people. There on the ward we all lived in the same place, and (for the most part) saw and experienced the same things, but I was trapped in a world I could find no escape from, that despite its invisibility was a prison as confining as Alcatraz Island.

Here is what I discovered. I'm not sure how I realized it, it must have been by accident, and as I came across it accidentally a few times the lesson began to stick. The things I felt, not with my emotions, but by touching them, by feeling them with my fingers, were convincingly real to me. I could offer no objective proof that they were any more real than the things I saw and heard, but they felt real to me. I had confidence in what I touched.

And so I would go around touching things, everything in the ward. I would suspend judgement on things that I saw or heard until I could touch them with my own hands. After a few weeks the feeling that I was just watching a movie without acting in it, and the concern that I might be the only being in the Universe subsided and the everyday world took on a concrete experience of reality that I had not felt for some time.

I wasn't able to think my way out of my prison. Thinking was what kept me imprisoned. What saved me was that I found a chink in the wall. What saved me was not thought but feeling. The simple feeling that there was one small experience left in my world that I could trust.

For years afterwards I had the habit of dragging my fingers along walls as I would walk down halls, or rapping my knuckles on signposts as I passed them on the street. Even now the way I shop for clothes is to run my fingers over the racks in the store, searching by touch for material that feels particularly inviting. I prefer coarse, robust and warm material, rough cotton and wool, dressing in long-sleeve shirts even when it is hot out.

If left to my own devices I would (and used to) buy clothes without any regard to their appearance. If my wife didn't help choose my clothes they would always be hopelessly mismatched. Fortunately my wife appreciates my need for tactilely appealing clothes and buys me clothes that I find pleasant to wear and that she finds pleasant to look at.

The importance of touch comes out even in my art. A friend of mine remarked once about my pencil drawing - pencil is my favorite medium - that I "have a love of texture".

It is typical of schizoid thought that a simple but disturbing philosophical idea can overwhelm one. No wonder Nietzsche went mad! But I will explain later how studying philosophy can be comforting too. I will tell you how I found salvation in the ideas of Immanuel Kant.

Paranoia
[top]

Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Paranoia is the one of my schizoid symptoms that bothers me the most. While I've only heard voices a few times, if I weren't taking an antipsychotic drug called Risperdal the paranoia would happen frequently. As I'm sure you could imagine, being paranoid is distressing and so I'm very careful to always take my Risperdal. Visual hallucinations happen quite a bit too (when I'm not taking my medicine anyway) but except for startling me they happen suddenly, I don't find them as upsetting.

Paranoia is commonly thought to be the delusion that others are plotting against oneself, but it is a little more complicated than that. And you may be surprised to hear that even if one is self-aware enough to know that one is experiencing paranoia, to understand clearly that what one thinks is a delusion, it doesn't make the delusions go away.

The paranoid are commonly thought to be deadly dangerous. While there have been cases of the paranoid attacking those they thought had it in for them, most paranoids are perfectly safe to be around and in fact are commonly found living among you in society where they lead more or less normal lives. You don't have to be schizophrenic to be paranoid - it can arise as a neurosis, for example in response to early child abuse, and exist in a pure form without other schizoid symptoms like hallucinations.

I was interviewed in the March 30, 2000 edition of the Metro San Jose, in an article called Friends in High Places. I answered an ad seeking bipolar Silicon Valley engineers for anonymous interviews, but I told them they could feel free to use my name and even my photo. If you click the link, down towards the bottom of the page you will see me sitting on the driveway of the house I used to live in in Santa Cruz.

The article quotes me as saying "I can work effectively even when I'm wigging, even when I'm hallucinating, even when I'm severely depressed." And by wigging, I meant that I could develop software while severely paranoid. I've spent a lot of productive hours at the office, laboring at my computer, while trying to avoid thinking of the fact that a Nazi armoured division was holding maneuvers in the parking lot.

The article goes on to say:

"Programming is more tolerant of eccentric activity," Crawford says. "Even though I might have been weird, I was a good worker."

The essence of paranoia is that one's interpretation of events is deluded, not the perception of the events themselves. In the absence of hallucinations, everything a paranoid experiences is really happening. What the paranoid is mistaken about is why they're happening. Even inconsequential events take on a significance that is personally threatening. This makes it hard to know what is real. Although one can test one's sensory perceptions by, for example, asking other people, it is much harder to objectively test one's beliefs about why something is happening, especially when you don't feel you can trust what other people say.

For example, a stylishly dressed, attractive young woman approached me on the street one day in downtown Santa Cruz and bluntly said "it's all been a plot". It seems that there had been a conspiracy to rob her of her money. She explained it at some length while I listened in awestruck fascination:

She had a book checked out of the library, and meant to return it on time, but a diversion created by the conspirators delayed her. When she finally returned the book, she was assessed a fine. As evidence of the plot she cited the helicopter that flew overhead, spying on her as the left the library.

Anyone can have an unexpected delay and be charged a fine when they return a library book late. Helicopters fly over Santa Cruz all the time - I have no doubt that she really saw a helicopter. But what was special in her circumstances was why she was delayed: she did tell me what happened (I'm sorry I don't remember) but was convinced that the delay had been caused by those who plotted against her. Many people see helicopters fly overhead; what was special for her is the reason she felt the helicopter to be there.

I don't actually have such a hard time distinguishing most of my paranoid delusions from reality. It's because they're all so ridiculous - I really have spent a lot of time worried about the military coming to attack me. It's not that I hallucinate my attackers. If I look I can see they're not there. But when I turn away I feel their presence again. I know very well I experience paranoia and I try to tell myself it's not real, but I'm afraid that simply knowing it's a delusion is no comfort at all.

As I said I often feel the fear from my experiences before I have the experiences themselves. People try to tell me to ignore the paranoia but that doesn't help - first I feel panic, and only then do I think the men with guns are out there waiting for me.

The only comfort I can find is to face my fear. If a Nazi Panzer division is tearing up my front yard, the only recourse I have is to steel my courage and go outside to look for them until I'm satisfied they're not there (I have to search carefully - perhaps they're hiding in the bushes). Only then does the paranoia subside.

Walking around Pasadena late in the evening I was discharged from Alhambra CPC, I came across a large white stone, about three feet across and fairly round. There were some wrinkles in its surface. It looked just like an ordinary stone, but I knew it wasn't - it was someone waiting for me, crouching on the ground, and I feared him. It didn't look like a real person at all - it looked like someone wearing a very clever stone-like disguise.

I stood there paralyzed for some minutes, unsure of what to do, until I summoned all the courage I could muster - and kicked the stone as hard as I could. After that, it was just a stone.

Now about the little joke with which I introduced this section. Everyone, even perfectly sane people, have challenges they struggle against. You don't have to be paranoid to have enemies. Perfectly sane people get robbed, beaten and even murdered all the time. Probably the worst part of all about being paranoid is when the paranoid has a real enemy, and that enemy uses the paranoid's illness against them. You might beg others for help, but the person who is trying to hurt you is easily able to convince them that your complaints are just delusions, and so your pleas fall on deaf ears.

There is a very real stigma against mental illness in our society. Stigma can kill - I once received word from the wife of a European diplomat that his doctors refused to treat his heart condition because he was manic. He died in the hospital of a very real, unimagined heart attack.

There are people who harbour a deep seated hatred for the mentally ill for the simple fact that we are different. And these people do grievous harm to those who suffer, in large part by using the symptoms we exhibit to convince others not to support our cause, to convince them that the hatred we sense from them is all in our heads.

I have been at the receiving end of some of the worst of this stigma. That is why I write web pages such as this, to promote understanding in our society so that in a hopeful future day the stigma will be gone and we can live among you as ordinary members of society.

Geometric Visions
[top]

One evening as I was walking across a parking lot at the California Institute of Technology, I looked up to see a Yin-Yang symbol in the sky stretching from horizon to horizon. Shimmers of energy radiated from Mt. Wilson to the North. I felt a deep chord resonating through my body, the vibration of the Universe penetrating deep into my bones. I was as tall as giant striding across that parking lot that evening.

At that instant I Knew. I knew my Purpose.

I had been walking to my weekly appointment with my therapist in downtown Pasadena. I hurried on to our meeting, and when I arrived I excitedly explained my revelation to her.

"Mike," she replied, "you're not making any sense".

For a while after I cracked up at Caltech, and every now and then after that, I would see things like Yin-Yang symbols in the clouds. I would see other things too, like the energy waves from Mt. Wilson, which at the time was a powerful symbol for me. Sometimes the Yin-Yang symbols were animated, and would spin. The might be recursive, with smaller Yin-Yangs in each of the spots, and so on ad infinitum. I found that I could see them if I stared into the snow on a television set that wasn't tuned to a station.

After I dropped out of Caltech, I started pursuing various artistic endeavours. I learned to draw from Betty Edwards' Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, and would construct crystalline latticeworks from painted wooden dowels.

I started to teach myself to play piano. I had a friend show me a few basic chords, and then I would just bang on the keyboard randomly until something that sounded like music came out. All the pieces I can play now I composed myself through improvisation - I still can't read music. Much later in Santa Cruz I took lessons from a wonderful teacher named Velzoe Brown, and learned to play quite a bit better, but still find interpreting musical notation difficult and tedious.

And I first got into photography in a serious way that Fall at Caltech. A housemate lent me a nice SLR camera, a Canon A-1, and I would walk around campus and Pasadena taking pictures. My sense of sight was vivid in those days and I found that photography came naturally. The expensive Canon could accurately meter a 30-second night exposure, so a great deal of my photos were ghostly shots in the dark. I still enjoy night photography.

I would photograph my hallucinations too. I would try to anyway, only to be disappointed that they didn't turn out when I got the prints back from the developer. However I can see even now where the seeds of my visions lay in the photographs. For example I would commonly see Yin-Yang symbols graphically floating in the sky, but in the photographs now I can see the hint of shapes in the clouds where one could easily imagine a real Yin-Yang.

Imagining what they see in clouds is a common game among children. But I would take it an extra step, as the shape would take on a stark reality that didn't look like a cloud at all.

Eventually the visions in the sky went away, but for much longer I was bothered by illusions that I would see out of the corner of my eye. Lots of people catch glances of things that aren't really there, that go away when you look straight on. But in my case they were rather more distinct than I think most people experience.

My illusions also are based on real objects. The most common (and bothersome) illusion I have is to see flashing police car lights where a real car has a luggage or ski rack. This would combine with my paranoia to give me the urge to dive into the bushes when such cars would drive by.

Risperdal is effective for me at eliminating the hallucinations. I found it very helpful in bringing me back down to Earth during my graduate school manic episode, but it is expensive and I resented taking it at the time, so I stopped for a few months. I finally decided to go back on Risperdal and take it faithfully one night while dining in a restaurant with a friend, only to be bothered by flashing blue police car lights and billowing red flames out the window to my left. Each time I turned to look, I would see only the headlights of cars driving up the street towards the restaurant.

In many ways I miss the visions. Not the squad car lights, but the many beautiful and inspiring things I saw. While living without visions is certainly more placid, it's not nearly so interesting.

The psychologist who did my intake at Dominican Hospital in 1994 told me that in many more traditional cultures, the schizoaffective people are the shamans. If you wonder why there are no more miracles as in the Biblical days, it's because we lock our prophets up in mental hospitals.

And my purpose? Very simple: my purpose is to unify Art and Science. In high school I had been active in the theater and the chorus, and also enjoyed literature and writing, but stopped all my artistic pursuits at Caltech because I had to study so hard. I felt the need to restore balance to my life, and I felt the need to bring that balance to Caltech itself, where I felt the lack of right-brain stimulation was damaging and depressing to both the students and the faculty.

I don't know why that didn't make sense to my therapist. It made perfect sense to a different therapist I saw a half a year later, just as I was about to get myself in a position to be diagnosed. I don't think it's such a bad thing to want to be a well-rounded person, or to want to restore balance to a society sufferring from a fetishistic obsession with technology.

In the end, I don't think it's such a bad thing at all that I changed my major to literature.

Next: How to Deal With Mental Illness
[top]

I will submit Part III to moderation once discussion of Part II has died down. In Part III, I will discuss what to do if you think you might be mentally ill: the importance of getting treatment as well as an accurate diagnosis, what else might be causing mental and emotional disturbances, seeking psychotherapy and how to build a livable new world for yourself.

I will explain why I am so bold as to write such things in such a public way, and finally I will cite some websites and books you can read to learn in greater depth what mental illness is and how to recover from it.

Copyright © 2003 Michael David Crawford. All Rights Reserved.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
Of the people you interact with regularly, how many do you think need professional mental health treatment?
o 75%+ 14%
o 50-75% 1%
o 25-50% 5%
o 10-25% 20%
o 5-10% 17%
o 5% or less 28%
o I don't interact with real live humans 12%

Votes: 94
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Part I
o Part I [2]
o Living with Schizoaffective Disorder
o The Best of Both Worlds
o When Did it Happen?
o A Poorly Understood Condition
o Someone You Know is Mentally Ill
o Life on a Roller Coaster
o Melancholi a
o The Strange Pill
o A Risky Treatment
o What if Medicine Doesn't Help?
o In the Next Installment
o The Heebee-Jeebies
o Hearing Voices
o Dissociati on
o Paranoia
o Geometric Visions
o Next: How to Deal With Mental Illness
o Part III
o If You Think You're Mentally Ill
o Therapy
o The Reality Construction Kit
o Why am I Saying All This?
o Recommende d Reading
o [top]
o what I wrote when I was wigging
o solipsism
o my pencil drawing
o Metro San Jose
o Friends in High Places
o Geometric Visions [2]
o Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
o crystalline
o latticeworks
o to play piano
o ghostly shots in the dark
o the hint of shapes in the clouds
o Also by MichaelCrawford


Display: Sort:
Living with Schizoaffective Disorder (Part II) | 244 comments (206 topical, 38 editorial, 0 hidden)
Hearing voices (5.00 / 6) (#11)
by cyclopatra on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 04:31:01 PM EST

While I was in the Intensive Care Unit at the Alhambra Community Psychiatric Center that summer of '85, I heard a woman shout my name - simply "Mike!"

I have to admit this sort of creeped me out, because this happens to me all the time - people calling my name, or saying something to me, and when I look up there's either no one there, or no one who's there is talking to me. I always thought this didn't really "count" as hearing voices, though, because it's only ever my name, or a couple of words at most, unless I'm halfway between being asleep or being awake.

I never attributed malicious intent to them, though - although I did usually think that whoever was calling me was now thinking horrible things about me because I didn't respond.

Cyclopatra
All your .sigs are belong to us.
remove mypants to email

First rate (5.00 / 4) (#30)
by glor on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 05:46:40 PM EST

Thank you for this excellent series. I look forward to part three.

I had a classmate for most of my undergraduate years who would come to classes for a few weeks at the beginning of the term, vanish, and show up for the final. One fall I saw him in October or November, for the first time in a month, and asked him where he'd been. His answer was that he had trouble sleeping. Then he elaborated: "Sometimes I hear voices. They tell me that I'm a terrible person, that I don't deserve to live, things like that. As long as I take my medicine it's actually kind of funny." That was the last time I ever saw him. No idea if he finished school or even if he's still alive.

Your descriptions of your hallucinations are terrifying on their own merit, but also partly because they're so eerily similar to what Joe told me that day, and what others have told me since. I can't fathom the courage that it took for you to write this, but I am deeply moved by it. Thank you and bravo.

--
Disclaimer: I am not the most intelligent kuron.

Wow (5.00 / 5) (#38)
by llimllib on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 06:35:26 PM EST

Thank you for this series of articles; it's truly wonderful stuff. To counter the people who have called the writing dry (and your own comment to that effect), I must say that I have been absolutely fascinated by the series. I don't believe that I've ever experienced mental illness, but I find your writing on the matter fascinating because it comes from a real first person perspective, while fiction is, well, fiction. Thank you.

That said, a couple of questions: You said that your visions were occasionally bad, but otherwise they made life interesting. How often were you having them when you were unmedicated? You mention seeing police lights and yin-yangs, were those your most common visions? What percentage of the visions were bad/benign?

Finally, in what sense would you, ideally, unify art/science? How does it compare to Robert Pirsig's vision of their unification in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?


Peace.
+1FP (5.00 / 6) (#42)
by bigbtommy on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 06:50:14 PM EST

One of the most moving and interesting (series of) stories on K5 for a while. Thanks for postin'.
-- bbCity.co.uk - When I see kids, I speed up
I've experienced similar things (5.00 / 5) (#49)
by curien on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 08:01:37 PM EST

Now, please don't think I'm saying, "Well, I'm paranoid too!" or, "Yeah, well everyone does that!" I'm not. I've experienced things similar to what you describe, but on a much smaller scale. I think they were mostly a childhood phenomenon, though they do still surface every once in a blue moon.

The thing that struck me most was your description of the rock. I've never been paralyzed with fear for minutes, but I've definitely felt sure for several seconds that something was not what it appeared to be -- it was about to leap out and get me. My boogeymen were not Panzer divisions, though; they were Imperial Stormtroopers (go ahead, laugh). They particularly hounded me in the bathroom. I've previously thought about it as some strange combination between fear of the dark and agoraphobia (and casually write it off as a child's normal fears), but your description of your paranoid Panzers is much closer to the mark. These people were coming to get me, but as soon as I could verify that they weren't present, they'd go away. I think I confuse this with fear of the dark and agoraphobia because open and dark spaces make it much harder to inspect my surroundings.

I'm fairly sure I'm not paranoid, and I doubt what I had felt was true paranoia, but I think I've had a taste of what you experienced. And I can say for sure that I'm glad I don't have to confront those kinds of personal demons.

--
Murder your babies. -- R Mutt

Interesting... (4.00 / 2) (#51)
by bobjim on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 08:13:46 PM EST

To be a genius is to think abnormally. To be mad is to think abnormally. Discuss.
--
"I know your type quite well. Physically weak and intellectually stunted. Full of resentment against women." - Medham, talking about me.
Hearing Things (4.33 / 6) (#53)
by sypher on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 09:08:09 PM EST

I think this series is excellent, it is a really useful education.

It's a shame you couldn't print this article and air drop it over the country, or at least get it into a mainstream daily. It really lays the cards onto the table.

I do have a question though, and that is related to the hearing of voices which I hope someone may answer.

Can you recognize these voices as being from a specific person you have met in your life, a voice from the TV, or do you think it is a construct of your sub concious?

Also, after reading the draft on Michael's website over the weekend, I went looking for some information about this in an attempt to answer my own questions about the condition, but couldn't really find an answer.

I am wondering if like (and I realise this is a really bad example), Anthony Perkins character in Psycho hears the voice of someone he knows, is that the way the condition works?

I dreamt of it once, now I fear it dreams of me
Ignorance (4.87 / 8) (#54)
by gidds on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 09:11:52 PM EST

There is a very real stigma against mental illness in our society.

I'm sure you're right - and I suspect one of the main reasons for this is simply ignorance.  We don't know what it's like to have any of the various types of mental illness, and we don't know what to expect from those who do.  As a result, we're afraid, maybe for our own personal safety, maybe even that we harbour such symptoms ourselves.

So you deserve much respect for helping to reduce that ignorance.  It's a fascinating series, and although it can't have been easy to write, it's easy to read and very informative.  A big thank you.

Andy/

Not Dry (4.75 / 8) (#56)
by Billthemarmet on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 09:38:30 PM EST

Your article is not dry in the least. I stumbled on it reading through rss feeds. I must say it is one of the bravest accounts I've ever run across. I was diagnosed with severe clinical depression years ago, and if just ONE of the many published materials(pamphlets, books, medical journals) had been as intuitive as your description of depression or mental illness, I know I would have had a much easier time coming to terms with it.
Billthemarmet
A frequent (4.00 / 4) (#57)
by medham on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 09:39:47 PM EST

Though probably inaccurate analogy is that psychotomimetic drugs such as LSD produce temporary schizophrenic states. Thus, the common question: "Can you imagine if things were like this all the time?" heard most often at Glenn Campbell concerts and rave halls.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

talking about it makes it worse (2.33 / 3) (#58)
by bolthole on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 09:46:48 PM EST

huh. intersting.

Tourettes is like that too. Or it can be. depending on just how mellow and truely tic-free the person is.


Omission? (4.00 / 2) (#59)
by Cluster on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 10:06:04 PM EST

Michael, you mentioned Immanuel Kant and said you'd talk more about him... did you forget to include that, or is that scheduled for the last part?
As many others have already said, I was moved by your descriptive, powerful writing.

thanks (5.00 / 4) (#61)
by relief on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 10:46:00 PM EST

for these series, and especially the email you sent me, MichaelCrawford.

I now see that.. although I may suffer from manic depression, I certainly don't have schizoaffective disorder. These things you talk about, visions, paranoia, recursive concepts only happened a few times while tripping.

Which leads me to wonder, it must be pretty similar to low-dose shroom/acid tripping, this disorder. discuss

----------------------------
If you're afraid of eating chicken wings with my dick cheese as a condiment, you're a wuss.

ok. (2.50 / 2) (#63)
by relief on Mon Apr 14, 2003 at 11:24:35 PM EST

But.. that doesn't help me understand. I'd seen symbols stretched over the sky while tripping. Paranoia, more than just fear of dying from the drugs, is real too. ?

----------------------------
If you're afraid of eating chicken wings with my dick cheese as a condiment, you're a wuss.
Wow. (4.60 / 5) (#67)
by sethadam1 on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 01:22:11 AM EST

These have been some of the best and most interesting pieces I've had the pleasure of reading during my tenure at K5.  I'm very thankful to Michael Crawford for sharing this with us.  

The experience I'd like to share is as follows: my hallucinations, brought on by extracurricular nonsynthetics during my college days, manifested themselves in variety of forms.  While the traditional conception of hallucations is a pink elephant, in reality, hallicincations are much closer to reality.  Generally, they aren't inventions of the mind, but an error in perception, and sometimes just a minor one.  A pattern of stones might present itself as a dog, for example.  Or the clouds may appear to be a staircase.  The ground or walls may appear to be breathing.  Solid objects may seem to be moving.  The key to hallucincations are not the visuals, but the mental acquiesence that comes with them.  You're convinced you can speak to the stone dog or climb the cloud staircase.  Breathing grass hills don't seem especially alarming to you.  

Frequently, though, you are aware of the strange nature of  your perception.  You understand, and quite clearly, that the walls taking breaths of some sort is a completely ridiculous notion, but you're strangely compelled to accept what you're sensing.  As such, I'd define hallucinations as not only a misperceived sensual cue, but also the inability to properly mentally comprehend them.  

This is all quite fascinating.  Thanks again Michael.

--
Adam
http://flipsource.org    

Excellent (4.75 / 4) (#70)
by nomic on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 02:30:35 AM EST

This is a most fascinating series. Thanks for sharing. As with many here, the similarities and differences of your accounts help clarify my own experiences.

In college, I came to a stark realization. Mentally, I could become anything I wanted. The possibilities were frightening. By allowing my mind to wander, to pick at grievances and to imagine physical actions, in the right situation those could instantly become reality. I realized a very serious responsibility. If I wasn't carefully about what I allowed myself to perceive, I could eventually convince myself of any action as being necessary.

In one particularly hard period of my life, I continually had to watch what I was thinking and ask myself, "Is this helping?" If not, then force myself to think of something that would. For really bad moments I'd tell myself, "Don't think about pink elephants." Inevitably I'd think about pink elephants instead of the destructive thoughts.

Recently I went to see a therapist a couple friends had recommended. I explained my current issues and what I was doing. He was quite interested in how I was handling them. Then he surprised me. He congratulated me on how well I was doing and encouraged me to keep up the good work.

I wonder what it is like for other people. The difficulty is finding a common metaphor. Some way to relate our own experiences of being human. Especially when we reach the unusual experiences within our minds. How your mind tries to untangle the torrent of information sent to it on a regular basis. I've certainly had a few odd experiences.

It's been noted that people commonly have an "inner voice" that is recognized as your own thought. I experience this chatter constantly. But I also have "inner visions" yet I never hear of this. I can play with images just like playing with speech or sounds. Is this common?

When working on hard programming tasks, I can "perceive" it has half visual/spaciel and half something else and explore the possibilities. If interrupted, it takes a while to recover and be able to speak or relate to the physical world.

Fortunately, I'm not prone to hallucinations. I can control the voices and visions. There have only been a few issolated cases where I lost that control. No more terro card reading for me. Though I've been prone to paranoia and feeling as though people are watching me at night. These are minor and easilly taken care of. The trick is not obsessing on it.

paranoia (4.50 / 4) (#78)
by auraslip on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 05:12:02 AM EST

is a natrual defense mechanism. Using our imagination to find differant ways a situation could be dangerous is a very good way to keep ourselves safe. At night and in other situations where we are weak, we are more paronoid. Remeber being a scared kid in bed thinking of all the scary stuff in under the bed?  
you probally suffer from 3 things:
1)your mind cannont control the healthy amount of paranoia
2)you mind misinterperts you paranoia, and thinks it is real
3)which is complicated by the fact that your mind thinks that you are in a "weak" situation.

If this is a bit confusing it is probally becuase I can't properly clarify my throughts at 4am.
124

Damn stones... (3.50 / 2) (#80)
by PhyreFox on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 07:16:12 AM EST

"It looked just like an ordinary stone, but I knew it wasn't."

Betcha ten bucks it's the control box for a cellphone tower. ;)

have you heard of/tried any particular foods.... (5.00 / 1) (#83)
by mreardon on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 07:36:23 AM EST

....to attempt to ameliorate your condition?

I am thinking in particular here of Udo's Oil or even better organic hemp seed oil.

It's tough living in the probe (4.75 / 4) (#86)
by slaida1 on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 09:01:31 AM EST

and using it at the same time to interpret and analyze the sensory signals from outer world. I'm talking about our brains.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle comes to my mind as something that's similar to our problems: we're trying to understand ourselves and changing world around us while our understanding itself is changing too fast or too unnatural ways to grasp or compensate.

Maybe deja-vu's are consequences of watching reruns on TV or loading same saved game again and again and our mind is trying to adjust itself to better handle those situtations? Maybe some of us trust our languange so much that they haven't imagined it might be flawed in such ways that it might work as a chinese finger trap sometimes leaving them hopelessly lost in philosophical mazes?

I can't help but feel frustrated in my belief that we could be capable of doing and understanding so much more but our psychological science isn't advanced enough to even recognize much less harness those possibilities. Anything other than being and feeling "normal" is considered an illness which should be reverted, cured back, or as close as possible to "normal".

I'm not saying that mental illness is a blessing or anything, I'm just whining over the fact that it *could* be a sign of something positive but our understanding about human mind is so poor that we can't do anything but try to bring patients back to some mental state we're familiar with. Like Michael said, many mentally ill are exceptionally talented. I'm wondering if their minds are trying to cope with those talents and develope some higher state of consiousness... .. uhh, i think i'll stop now. sorry.

MPD/DID (3.50 / 2) (#91)
by Sassy on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 11:45:20 AM EST

Mike, have you ever encountered anyone with MPD/DID (Multiple Personality Disorder/Dissociative Identity Disorder)?

Pot (3.50 / 2) (#96)
by mrcsparker on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 12:06:32 PM EST

The few times that I have gotten stoned have been a living hell for me. Each time - thinking that it would be different, was worse. I would experience many of the same things the author writes about - unable to determine if the conversation I am having is really going on or if I am reflecting back on a conversation in my head. Extreme paranoia. Unable to to focus for a second on a topic and writing little notes to myself to try to stay on an idea - ripping the note up later when it takes on a different meaning. Anyone else have this happen?

Question (4.00 / 2) (#97)
by johnnyfever on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 12:06:49 PM EST

I have experienced all the phenomenon that you have mentioned with the exception of hallucinations. Does that mean I need to go see a doctor? I guess madness is really just a matter of degree...

Night photography (3.00 / 1) (#103)
by anothertom on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 12:32:04 PM EST

Didn't you know, that all the professional "night photos" are shot in the dusk?
Whatever you expect them to show, give it a try.


Correction: schizoid vs. schizophrenic (4.50 / 2) (#107)
by MichaelCrawford on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 01:35:14 PM EST

Someone helpfully pointed out to me that I have been using the word "schizoid" inappropriately in this article:

schizoid isn't a word used in relation to schizophrenia. Schizoid is to do with Schizoid Personality Disorder which is quite a different illness.

So everywhere I discuss my schizoid experiences or schizoid symptoms, I should say "schizophrenic experiences".


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Your disorder... (1.33 / 3) (#110)
by Trollaxor on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 02:19:24 PM EST

What's actually happpening is that you are overlapping brain space with at least one and maybe several counterparts from alternate dimensions that are 10^(10^28) light years away.

If you want information on Schizophrenia (5.00 / 2) (#111)
by HomelessOne on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 03:17:30 PM EST

I work for a non-profit organization called the National Schizophrenia Foundation. If any K5 readers want more information on schizophrenia you can visit http://www.nsfoundation.org or call (800)482-9534.
             -HomelessOne

Amazing. (3.00 / 2) (#113)
by mrgoat on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 03:31:18 PM EST

The bits of paranoia I get frequently late at night, the many times I've heard someone call my name when no one was there, seem somehow so much more "normal" now. Well, not normal, but you get the idea. That, and the weird hallucinations I used to have once in a while as a kid that I never told anyone about. Thanks for writing, it's a good read.

"I'm having sex right now?" - Joh3n
--Top Hat--

Wow (2.00 / 2) (#116)
by CaptainZapp on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 04:48:35 PM EST

I'm really sort of out of words, except:

I'm looking into your eyes and I want to say: "Hello!"

schizophrenic (1.00 / 3) (#123)
by anonymous pancake on Tue Apr 15, 2003 at 08:09:42 PM EST

at least you are not schizophrenic, apparently having MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES can make life quite hard...


---
. <---- This is not a period, it is actually a very small drawing of the prophet mohhamed.
Thanks (4.00 / 1) (#132)
by RavenDuck on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 12:11:18 AM EST

Michael, I think your story is fascinating, especially this particular piece.

I'd actually always intended to be a psychologist (well, for as long as I can reasonably imagine anyway), and when studying psychology at University, I was always fascinated with abnormal psychology (that, and humanistic psychology, weirdly enough, although the two don't mesh well). At some point, however, I fell in love with criminology, and am currently completing a PhD in criminology. However, I've never lost my fascination with abnormal psych (one of the chapters of my thesis deals with mentally ill homicide offenders).

I think your explanations of what it was like to experience psychotic symptoms did more to aid my understanding of what it's like than four years of psych lectures did.

Thanks for sharing, and I look forward to the final installment.

--
For murder, though it have no tongue, will speak
With most miraculous organ.

Oh boy. This is a tough one. . . (5.00 / 4) (#134)
by Fantastic Lad on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 12:54:15 AM EST

First off, your series is absolutely first rate. Thank you VERY much for sharing a difficult and personal matter with such lucid and thoughtful words. This is fantastic! Thank you!

For me, this is very timely. I have two friends who have been exhibiting signs of some of the conditions you describe. Depression, Mania and most worrying, delusion resulting in destructive behavior. I worry, because I find myself in the line of fire, and I have been asked directly at times for advice. Your descriptions of testing fears/reality by actively confronting objects through tactile investigation is perhaps the first useful bit of insight I have heard.

In the past, when confronted by the idea of schizophrenia, (and similar), I feel quite at a loss, and usually back away since I have no real knowledge in the area other than, "It's a problem." I have never read anything which has provided me with something useful with which to suggest. In truth, reading your posts about the condition is the first direct and deliberate reading I have done on the subject. Everything else I know about it, (which is actually a not-insignificant amount), has been picked up here and there.

--Anyway. . .

I have had several experiences myself around the edges re, mania and depression. I have had periods of high, high energy and creative out-put, but have never actually traveled over an edge, so to speak. (That is, while allowing myself to be driven by times of mania, I have always been able to apply the brakes and keep my activities and enthusiasm in perspective. I have never had insomnia. I have never abandoned responsibilities, or made any life-course altering decisions without providing myself several weeks in which to plan, test and discuss ideas before committing to them, or just as often, abandoning them. This balancing-practice has proven a very effective method of dealing with mania, and as such, I have had many very positive and very profitable results with few setbacks. I suspect that this, 'on the edge' kind of mania is similar to the sort which propels many of the most successful artists, whereas those who experience more intense, uncontrolled versions tend to find themselves in dire straits. In any case, as a result of these kinds of experiences over the last 20 years or so, I have gained some facility in recognizing those same aspects in other people when they experience more extreme versions.

--I also understand something about auditory hallucinations. --Though, again, just the husk of the idea; I've only ever had such experiences when I am in bed, feeling extremely tired and just waking or just falling sleep; often after having been abruptly woken. I've heard things like phantom phones ringing, or voices having conversations within ear-shot. Usually just for a few seconds, and when I focus on these sounds and bring myself into full consciousness to pay attention to them, they immediately fade into nothing. Not really the same thing, (and indeed, I don't think this variation is unique to myself), but it is enough to be able to form an extrapolated kind of experiential understanding of what you have described. It is a useful reference point with which to relate to other people who suffer acute and frightening versions of such hallucination.

That all being said, I have several reservations. . .

First of all, I have been exploring energy and magic over the last few years. This, naturally, will cause many people to stop short and raise an eyebrow. (Or worse.) A great number of people simply do not believe in Chi energy, etc. And there is not much which can be said to these people. Those who get it, get it, and those who don't, probably aren't supposed to, and so probably won't.

I will say, however, that I have experienced, (yes, without drugs, thank you), some amazing things. --Things I have experienced with other people present and have been able to compare notes regarding afterwards. I have seen objects moved, have communicated telepathically, shared dreams, seen energy, and dealt with a host of other less easily described phenomena. If it were not for the multiple witness aspect, or various forms of cross-checking, all of which I swore to myself I would, (and do), take quite seriously upon venturing down this path of study), it would be easy to simply lump these kinds of experiences into the box labeled, "psychosis" and be done with it.

The problem is that schizophrenia and similar, are very real conditions, and some of the people I have met since embarking on this road have without question, been mentally ill. So I find myself having to A) struggle to legitimize my interest in this area, B) sort out fact from fiction in my own sphere of experience, and C) do the same with other people! --People who, very often, are all too eager to see and believe without exercising any form of discretion whatsoever. Sigh.

As such, being an advocate of advancing and enlarging the awareness, I all too frequently find myself in the awkward position of having to burst people's bubbles and deal with the aftermath. --One common thing I have discovered is that Egos in these circles are very easily bruised. People don't like it at all when you disabuse them of beautiful delusions, and they will attack you sometimes more bitterly and blindly than those in the 'Skeptic' camp. --Often, these attacks themselves can be a powerful indicator of delusional thinking. As I have found, there are a LOT of quite disturbed people in New Age circles. Further, (and yes, I'm afraid this will sound like paranoid thinking, though I can assure you, I do not feel any fear regarding it, debilitating or otherwise), I think that this is without question to some degree an effect-by-design. An encouraged sort of pattern meant to confuse and frighten away normal people living under the yoke of negative societal control. All in all, the whole thing can be rather frustrating.

So. . .

Some of the problems I have with your essays, (in particular Part I), is the general attitude which would suggest that people are prone to illness. The insistence that One in Three people is mentally ill, I found quite annoying, and I disagree with it. --Anything which affects a third of a population, and which has done for all of history, no matter how difficult it may be to live with, is what I would call NORMAL. I find it very annoying when normal states of affairs are labeled as 'sicknesses' which can be 'cured' through expensive drugs.

It is VERY much within the interest of certain forces to have the population believe that they are more weak and susceptible to illness than they really are. --That they should, in fact, be on medication. I mean, holy mind-games, Batman! --Particularly in a society which promotes the use of foodstuffs, drugs and EM generating devices which have been demonstrated time and again to be neurologically harmful. These approaches, when combined, (Poison and bake the brains of the populace, and then encourage the belief that people are "Just naturally sickly and weak and should take psych drugs, because that's the only way to combat the problem,". . .), Well, I find this quite a frustratingly successful, (and EXTREMELY profitable), method of subduing a populace.

In short, your perfectly valid exploration of your own condition, and your very lucid instruction regarding it, I think could be harmful to readers if they are not very careful!

I know FAR too many people who are on anti-depressant drugs who should not be. I know a girl who went on them because all her friends were on them. "It's just a pill. It's totally safe." It was exam time, and she was feeling, 'stressed at school'. She is now addicted to Paxol, and her personality has been, essentially, turned down to a dull-witted, dolby-stereo version of what she once was. I feel creeped out just being around her now.

Teachers and principals now have the authority to kick kids out of school if their parents do not put them on anti-depressant drugs. A vast number of children have been medicated in order to make them sit in rows for long periods of time without wriggling; that is, because they were acting like kids.

So while I thank you for sharing, and while I applaud your efforts, I VERY much hope people remember that before making any decisions about anti-depressant drugs, they should read opposing views and THINK carefully about it first.

In the long run, it is BEST that people learn how to live with the natural architecture of their brains WITHOUT chemical aids, (drugs, which we must not forget for a moment, make BILLION dollar annual profits for certain corporate interests!). Those who learn how to walk without a stick are more powerful than those who need crutches.

And finally. . , if you are stressed out and depressed in your life, perhaps you should take a look at your life and try to fix that first. Stress and misery are your mind's way of telling you that something is wrong. It is an Astronomically Stupid idea to shut off that portion of your mind rather than solve the problems they might be warning you about!

Please, please. Think first!

-Fantastic Lad

Questions (4.00 / 1) (#146)
by ultimai on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 02:27:01 AM EST

Have you ever had the "thought disorder" that skitzofrenics have?  Where their thoughts become so jumbled and unconnected that they cant think at all, or really speak properly?

Have you ever stayed up for a week straight?

I have heard that sleep depravation to a certain point can cause pernament damage to a persons brain and sanity.

fear (5.00 / 4) (#149)
by tealeaf on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 03:12:46 AM EST

Fear is mindkiller...

Here is what I think.  We are affraid of what mind can be and what mind can do.  We like our boxes.  We like known.  We like normalcy and routine.  We like our bodies and posessions.  Anything that threatens any of these is feared.

What if you're right, and none of this is real?  Is it still possible to find peace, or is peace only possible when mind is on a leash?  Some people (Spartacus? others?) say that it's better to die on your feat than to live on your knees.  Can I say that it's better to live free and in fear than to live in the comfort of a box?  Not as poetic, I know, but you get the gist...

Granted, this is not what a psychologist or someone with a disorder may want to hear.  It is a dangerous and a mentally explosive thought.  But I must say it.

It seems like there was only one affliction here: fear.  Who cares what you see?  Who cares what you hear?  In the end fear determines life.  Maybe this computer is an illusion, but here I sit, typing in abondon, without even a hint of fear, tap-tip-tap-click-clik... la la la... no problem at all.  My body could be consumed by fire or being eaten by a daemon, but if there is no fear, where is the problem?

We are going to die.  Human life span is at best, oh, say, 200 years.  I'm generous now.  200 years is nothing.  It is but a blink of an eye...as fast as a flash of lightning.  Everyone should reflect on this truth.  In the face of this reality many matters become trivial and many questions are quickly replaced by more fundamental questions.  It is like looking straight at the sun.  It burns the eyes, but nothing gives you a better picture of light.

Fear assumes that you are in control and that you can fix the situation.  How arrogant.  Control, attachment, fear, pleasure, are all close relatives.  If you have one, you have all others.  Of course the spiritual teachers talk about this for aeons.  None of this is original.

I just can't help but imagine what if the doctor said it was OK to see visions and hallucinate as long as you weren't affraid and that fear was the only problem?  And even fear is not really a problem.  It is a lesson.  Is it scary, sure, yes it is.  But soldiers are scared shitless in a war sometimes, and it's ok to have wars when the cause is right (hehe...I don't even wanna go there further, try to get the gist and move on now).  Fear is not so bad when it is expected, when you know you're supposed to be affraid.  Unexpected fear is the most terrifying, isn't it?

One last thought.  When we look at trees, what do we see as beauty?  Straight as an arrow trees?  Is a pole beautiful?  I say no.  It is sterile.  It is barren.  It is ugly.  Nay.  A beatiful tree (the kind we see on photographs) has crooks.  It is irregular.  Maybe one part of it is striken by lightning.  Maybe half of it is dead or maybe it is completely overtaken by parasitic growth.  Or maybe its roots stick in the air in ever so assymetrical ways.  Those are all beautiful trees.  Oh why then do we not think that crooked people are beautiful?  Why is it that face and body and mind must closely approach a gold standard to be beautiful?  Why can't a missing limb or a twisted mind be as beautiful as a gnarly bark?  How especially beautiful is when such person is all that and yet confident, peaceful or even fearless.  And how alien.  A being without fear...surely not a human...an abomination that must be destroyed.

Huzzah! *spit*

Dance with Satan (4.50 / 2) (#154)
by enderwiggin99 on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 06:24:29 AM EST

I have had the fortune of experiencing auditory 'halucinations' during sleep. In this particular case, I'm sure I was asleep but completely lucid.

It wasn't really a dream, more of an...existence in an oddly different domain. In this vision/dream/whatever I was a spirit floating peacefully and interacting with other spirits. I would float lightly away from what I percieved as non-compatible/slightly hostile spirits and would be drawn closer to friendly/more compatible spirits. There was almost no feeling of any type; I did not feel intimidated by the non-friendly entities, nor was I joyed by the friendly entities. It was more a sense of wonder and curiousity.

And then I came across a slightly different spirit.

It was just like all of the others that I felt as kindred. I drifted closer, and I was overcome by a feeling of alarm. I sensed a deep, penetrating malice from this spirit, and I recoiled in fear, at the same time I viewed it as kindred. I continued floating, still asleep, and a very short time later was awakened by the most evil, hideous laugh imaginable. It was the laugh (or so I imagined it) of Satan himself, a laugh obviously meticulously concieved to incite an extremely unpleasant response in the observer. The fidelity and non-existent distortion of it was just amazingly...amazing. It was as if my auditory sensory organs had been bypassed and a direct connection to my brain made. It was an incredible experience.

This particular incident set off a spate of analytical thought regarding the meaning behind the revealing of the existence of a purely evil spirit. Shortly thereafter I had a mental breakdown and was admitted to hospital for a while. I believe the happenstance that pushed me over the edge was insistantly suicidal urges. Suicidal urges are common for me to start with, and I know deep down that I will not carry through with them; the difference this time was that I didn't seem capable of resisting. I knew I wasn't going to do it, but I wasn't in control of myself. As Mike mentioned, it was as if I was an observer of the movie projecting around my own body. I had already read the screenplay, but the 'narrative' scared me just the same.

I have since been diagnosed bi-polar, though I believe that I may be schizophrenic as well; that diagnosis will come in the near future. I have extreme bouts of paranoia; I found great satisfaction in what Mike wrote on the subject, as it put to paper what I have great difficulty passing along to people. I have deja-vu very very often; on average, 4-5 times a week. I have deja-vu about having deja-vu, which I find quite odd and very neat at the same time. I've had a string of 5 incidents in a row where I remembered recalling a specific scene and dialogue combination; and remembered remembering that I remebered the scene, etc. etc. I've had dreams where the dream world is set in a physical place before I've visited it; the details I can remember are astounding. Many people come across this and call it deja-vu; the difference is that I remember the dreams before I am placed in the situation that is familiar.

I find having any type of dream quite comforting, regardless of whether it's a nightmare or a paradise. I find that I can distinguish what lies ahead in the physical world by the 'medium' of the dream rather than the screenplay; difficult to explain. For me, the dream manifestations of real places I have yet to visit are clairvoyant and clear. Warnings are much more fuzzy and rely on the overall impression of the dream as a whole rather than the dissection of the mundane happenings of the dream.

Well, I've rambled enough. Time to get to bed. I would elaborate on much much more if I had the time; as it is this stands as a simple overview of not necessarily even the dominant splinters of my existence. Excuse the nature of this post, I have difficulty keeping on-topic. Things just seem to flow with such naturalness together that I can get carried away! :)



__Ender__
Reverse-engineering the Universe from life until Zen.
Menacing objects with deeper significance (5.00 / 3) (#164)
by Polverone on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 03:24:31 PM EST

I was struck especially by the part where you encountered a rock that wasn't really just a rock. In childhood I often had a strong awareness of the intentions of inanimate objects, at least when the objects were evil. The most common evil objects that I can recall were electrical sockets. The 3 holes for the prongs made menacing little faces that watched me, and I was afraid to be alone with them. I was also afraid of turntables after they started playing records wrong, again with evil intentions (the music became mocking and threatening). I haven't experienced anything like that in years, except in dreams.

But it also reminded me of a passage, now almost forgotten, from Ursula K. LeGuin's A Wizard of Earthsea. At one point Ged, the protagonist, enters a castle and encounters a powerful, evil and ancient creature that to ordinary sight is nothing more than another stone. Even though I read the book when I was 18 years old and hadn't experienced (awake) malice from objects in years, I found that scene very frightening. I knew exactly what Ged was experiencing and knew the frustration of his companion remaining oblivious to the stone's evil intent.

I am still fascinated by the idea that there are multiple levels to the world -- that what you can experience with the ordinary senses is only a varnish over the deeper reality underneath. This is as a thought experiment or basis for fiction, mind you. I don't seriously think any more that space heaters (another evil childhood object) are waiting to burn me.
--
It's not a just, good idea; it's the law.

My thanks again to Mr. Crawford. (5.00 / 2) (#168)
by mcgrew on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 05:45:30 PM EST

I fear this may be a long post when I finish

I started reading, and thought I should jot some responses to things that hit close to home, whether to me or someone I know.

But first, My thanks again to Mike for posting this long and very interesting piece.

I have known a few schitzophrenics (not sure if any are the schitzoaffective), and there seems to be different symptoms for that particular disease. I'm not sure if the different forms of schitzophrenia are in fact the same illnesses (they don't seem to be to this outside observing layman).

A friend (who I haven't seen in quite some time, he has become very reclusive) hears the voices. What they say to him isn't pleasant. I thank God I do not suffer that disease, I would much rather have my "adjustment disorder" despite its unpleasantness (and the unpleasant physical side effects of the medication). I'm glad my illness is more of a temporary thing.

Anoher friend suffering from schitzophrenia had completely diferent symptoms. He was convinced that he was a fighter pilot in Vietnam, despite the fact that he was only 14 years old when that war ended! Unless he started talking about his imaginary past and gave himself away with immpossibilities like that, aside from a general nervousness you would think he was completely "normal". He was institutionalized several years ago.

Yet another friend was diagnosed and sucessfully treated for schitzophrenia, and is now leading a normal, productive live. His symptoms seemed more bipolar than schitzophrenic, although as I said, his doctor must know what he's doing, as the fellow is doing well (I see him often, just got an email today with a funny picture... didn't look, it was an exe).

solipsism I have always entertained the possibility that everything is an illusion, but never saw the point in thinking about it much. There really is no way to know "what's real". Your senses/brain are your only way of interacting with the world, and if they are lying to you there really isn't much you could do. If you asked a shrink, how would you know the shrink wasn't an illusion? It really doesn't matter if the world is real. If it is what you experience, it is real.

Dissociation Someone close to me was diagnosed with a form of "disociation Identity Disorder", or DID. I had a very long discussion with a psychologist about this disease. This is different from what Mr. Crawford is talking about her. DID is the classic "multiple personalities", and there are two forms of it. One form is caused by a life threatening experience before age three, and the second, less serious form is caused by events in adolescence, usually sexual abuse.

I will not mention who this person close to me is, as the psychologist I spoke to cautioned me that many patient commit suicide when finding out the truth about their life and illness. Some people will fake this disease, also, and he said it is very hard to diagnose.

Ah, the hell with it, it's my hated ex-wife, the crazy bitch, she's put me through enough hell...

Dissociation itself is normal- we do not behave, say, at work as we do at school; we behave differently before our grandparents than our friends. It is a matter of degree, the diference between the proverbal mountain and molehill.

The experience was like watching a particularly detailed movie with really high-fidelity sound and a wraparound screen.

I experienced this exactly once in my life. I was involved in a terrible auto accident, a head on collision with a larger vehicle doing 70mph (a kilometer is .6 miles) and I was doing 50. I believe I blacked out on impact and won't go into detail about the religious experience I had, but I, too was in terrible psychical pain, and throwing up blood. The ambulance crew was freaking out, and I disassociated myself from the emotions and psychical pain and helped the rescue crew free my fiancee from the wreckage (which didn't even look like a car any more). I have no idea how I accomplished it (or survived), other than to call it a miracle. I believe that disassociation saved her life. It was very similar to what Mr. Crawford describes. VERY unlike what the person who was diagnosed with DID experiences, according to the psychologist (who had much experience with DID).

There are people who harbour a deep seated hatred for the mentally ill for the simple fact that we are different.

That was demonstrated very well by some of those very same people who responded to part I. I argued wih a few of them, who seemed to take a very sick delight in tormenting the mentally ill. I believe that ironically they, themselves, have an illness- it's just CRAZY to hate someone for something that does not hurt you, or affect you in any way, and that they cannot help. At the very least, it is irrational and hurtful. How can this not be classified as a disease, or at least a disorder?

I found that I could see them if I stared into the snow on a television set that wasn't tuned to a station.

?!!????!!! I'm not sure I should mention this, as I don't want to send anyone seeking LSD- but the same thing happens with that drug. It is a misinterpretation of what you see. It is your brain's filters "going haywire". Maybe LSD is like being schitzophrenic?

I should add (for the kids who want to try acid, DON'T) that you can learn to control your brain's filters; or at least, barring illness or chemical imbalance you can. Part of learning painting or drawing is learning to see, which involves controlling those filters. Or in the case of some painters, such as Edvard Munsch or Vincent Van Gogh, having those filters control you.

One of the first thing the painter has to learn is that seeing is not a product of the eye- it is a product of the BRAIN. Only 1% is the eye, the rest is processing.

The musician as well needs to learn to control his auditory filters. You won't hear the echoes from the walls, unless you know they are there (try it). You won't hear the aliasing distortion in a CD unless you know it is there and what it sounds like (and have good enough speakers to reproduce it).

For example I would commonly see Yin-Yang symbols graphically floating in the sky, but in the photographs now I can see the hint of shapes in the clouds where one could easily imagine a real Yin-Yang.

There is the brain's filter at work again.

Lots of people catch glances of things that aren't really there, that go away when you look straight on.

I had a (normal?) similar experience YESTERDAY! I walked past a bulliten board that I never paid attention to, and out of the corner of my eye I saw a poster that said "stopping violence begins with the homo!"

It took a few steps for that to sink in. "HUH???" I had to back up and look again.

"stopping violence begins with the home"

If you wonder why there are no more miracles as in the Biblical days, it's because we lock our prophets up in mental hospitals.

Very true. The miracles are, hoever, there. The "sane" just know better than to talk about them.


"The entire neocon movement is dedicated to revoking mcgrew's posting priviliges. This is why we went to war with Iraq." -LilDebbie

Evolution beyond "The Diagnosis" (5.00 / 1) (#172)
by Lunachick on Wed Apr 16, 2003 at 08:22:47 PM EST

I was diagnosed with Bipolar Affective Disorder at the age of 17. After three years' time doing the medication and therapy routine (Valproate and Wellbutrin plus individual therapy and a support group), I made the conscious decision to find another way to improve my day-to-day functioning. It wasn't a situation where "I felt fine" and decided I was somehow "all better now"; instead, I wanted to try for something better than floating through life as a functional and acceptable zombie.

Initially my self-styled "alternative treatment" focused on behavioral modification. In the initial phase of this strategy, I focused on becoming aware of my emotional state and modified my behavior accordingly (if I was feeling manic, I left my checkbook at home and refrained from initiating new sexual liaisons; if I was feeling depressed, I refrained from drinking alcohol - very basic behavioral curbs based on my prior experiences). While becoming more aware was a much-needed skill, I decided that I also needed to find a strategy and improve my coping skills, in general.

About eleven years ago, I became familiar with and began practicing a form of therapy known as "Constructive Living." I have learned that my behavior and my actions are almost always within the realm of my control, even when my mood isn't. Even when action is difficult, I have learned that I can still be effective and productive, despite not being "in the mood." I learned how determine what needed to be done next and to get on with life.

Most recently, I've focused on how diet and exercise can affect my general well-being and stability. In terms of brain chemistry, serotonin, dopamine and norephinepherin are something of the "Holy trio" with regard to bipolar affective disorder. Dopamine is generally considered to be the "usual suspect" for triggering mania, as it affects the brain processes that control movement, emotional response, and the ability to experience pleasure and pain. Norephinepherin is a potent sidekick, adding anxiety attacks and paranoias into the mix as one of the brain's resources for responding to "fight-or-flight" circumstances. Serotonin acts as a buffer, regulating mood by helping with sleep, calming anxiety, and relieving many symptoms of depression. If there's too little serotonin present, depression can occur; however, an overabundance of serotonin has been noted as a potential catalyst for schizoid conditions.

For the past three months, I've been experimenting with attempting to increase my serotonin levels by increasing the amount of complex carbohydrates in my diet. In general, I am more relaxed these days; my general sense of well-being has improved significantly. I am hopeful and confident, enough so to take a real shot at a few long-held goals. My sense of humor has improved (enough so that others have noticed) and I'm less irritable. I've been more creative (a new self-designed tattoo of a phoenix being the most recent manifestation). While the specifics of my life haven't changed much (my job is still a drag most of the time and I'm still learning how to live alone again after 12 years), the degree of stability I've been enjoying has been a welcomed relief. Instead of being buffeted by emotional storms and having to muddle through, I'm rolling with the punches with far less stress.

To prevent weight gain from the increased carb intake, I've been swimming laps four times a week. At present, it has been my observation that taking on a new physical challenge has produced an improved circumstance with regard to how I experience the effects of norephinepherin and dopamine. (My theory is that I'm using what I had in surplus more effectively to address a new circumstance.)

Yes, it takes a fair amount of self-discipline to take care of myself these days; it's a process of evolution in action. For me, it's the difference between expecting pills to "fix me" and learning to live well, changing the quality of my life through my own effort. I wasn't willing to settle for simply getting by.

Dextromethoraphan (1.00 / 2) (#193)
by Lonesome Phreak on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 12:22:06 AM EST

I have had many of these same feeling while using the drug dextromethoraphan, or DXM. It's a synthetic opiod, and is mainly used as a cough supressent in dosages around 15-30mg. However, at higher dosages (about 1 gram for a 200 pound person), it is a major psycedelic dissociative drug. While on it, you get the overpowering feeling that nothing around you is really there. The feeling that you are not a "human", but some other entity trapped in a body. You don't really understand why, but you "know" that "you" are not just a flesh and blood creature, but some type of sprititual entity trapped in a body. At times, the entire world around you can loose all visual perspective. Things will appear huge and close, such as your hand at normal arms distance taking up your entire field of view. Then again, it may look like it is miles away. It switches back and forth. This adds to the feeling that it's all really an illusion anyway. You can also get the dissociation feeling of the third-person view. At times, usually lasting 1-2 hours while "coming back", you watch yourself doing things. You are moving around, talking, whatever, but it's not really you. It is you, but the feeling of watching a movie of yourself is very intense. The "ghetto" way of adminstration is via cough syrup, although that is rather disgusting and potentially dangerous due to other drugs (such as the decongestants). You can buy it wholesale in powder form, and it is realitivly cheap, about $100 for 50 grams (which should last the average user over a year). You pack it into empty pills purchased at health food stores. I usually pack it in 250mg and 500mg. At around 500mg it's an interesting "party" drug, having similar affects of a combination of alcohal and X. The major effect occure around 1 gram. Going over that causes what I almost consider "out of body" experiences. You have closed-eyed hallucinations so realistic that you don't even realize that your not actually there. My most recent session was where I was "outside" of reality, wondering why I was ever there in the first place. I was flying around the universe looking for God (which I didn't find), but ran into some other interesting "things". Conversations happened where we discussed why my reality is the way it is, and things so esoteric that I can't even fully grasp them now. We discussed things about reality, the underlying conditions, quantum theory, super string theory, and such...but I can't even understand my own conversations. It's like listening to a lecture by a mathmatician about some obscure theory; you might understand it a bit, but most of it is way over the common persons head. But I know that was me thinking those things... I have tried to understand how this is possible. One theory is that it is so dissociating that your conscious mind is no longer "bothered" by your physical body. You can't feel anything physically. Therefor, your mind has more processing power than normal. It also greatly affects the chemisty itself, allowing you to think in novel ways. Unfortuantly, much of it slips your memory, much like altered reality dreams. If it doesn't make sense to your normal mind, it seems that your normal mind "forgets" the memory in an effort to keep itself sane. I can remember the first major out-of-reality trip I had. I watched myself (exactly like the third person view) grow younger and younger, and eventually turning back into a single cell. I then "popped" out back into whatever exists before that for a soul. There was a voice that said "your out...now what are you going to do?" which brought me "back" and I "woke up" realizing that I wasn't a pre-entity (whatever that might have been). I mainly use it for inner-reality exploration. Whether anything is "really" happening or not is conjecture. It is probably all in my head. But it might not be. The most intense spriritual experience was dexxing (as it's called) outside on a sunny day. I laid in the grass on this hillside when I began to dissociate. I felt that I was "one" with everything, and could feel the natural cycle around me. I could feel the grass grow, the clouds move and change shape, the wind moving molecules in the air. The sun then "engulfed" me, and I felt like I was experiencing some type of gnosis of my reality. It was AMAZING, and I have done it twice since then. The only problem with DXM is that there is a possibility it can cause Osley's lessions, or micro-holes in the brain (exactly like X can do) due to overheating of brain cells. This has never actually been seen in humans from DXM, but it is theoretically possible. However, taking certain other drugs in conjunction with DXM should block those effects, such as Klonopin (a perscription anxiety med). Luckly, my gf has a perscription of this, so I take a single pill before my dexxing. It is also hard on the liver, much like an alcoholic "bender". It doesn't cause damage unless you dex to often, therefor not giving your body time to clean itself out. Other than that, the only real danger is falling over something while attempting to walk around. I noticed that the feelings on DXM closely resemble budhist philosophy of utter detactment. I'm researching that area still.

Psychiatrists Abusing their Power (none / 0) (#203)
by cgibinladen on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 11:51:43 AM EST

I hate psychiatrists. They have too much power, they can keep you locked up for quite some time, and simply tell courts that you are not reasonably sane, and thus keep you locked away longer. Does anyone see a problem with this? Check out these links, they go into far further detail on the evils of psychiatry: http://www.stopshrinks.org/yoder/ http://www.antipsychiatry.com/ BTW, I am not a Scientologist, those people are shmucks that should also be shot.
Proud Member of the K5 Anti-Troll Coalition
Part III Friday I think (none / 0) (#211)
by MichaelCrawford on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 08:18:53 PM EST

I'm thinking that I will submit part III to the edit queue sometime friday afternoon (in the U.S. EDT time zone).

I want to tinker a little bit with it before I submit it, and tonight I need to do some programming work.

I'll post a note here when I put it in the edit queue.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Philosophical Dimension of Mental Illness (none / 0) (#213)
by t reductase on Thu Apr 17, 2003 at 10:51:40 PM EST

I think the foundation of mental illness is an experience of the world at odds with the 'ordinary world'. The surprising fact is that this non-ordinary experience of the world is no hallucination or delusion. Yes, many of the ideas used to explain the experience of mental illness can become quite rococo but the experience that the ideas are a reaction to is accurate. One reaches a point where the difficulty is the world is seen with a naked clarity and yet no one is in this world with one. Rather than by osmosis and osmosis is the only way to construct the ordinary world one comes up with theories some good some bad but all inadequate to the task at hand - re-entry into the ordinary world. This experience of the world as mysterious which I claim is at the heart of mental illness is also I think the foundation of philosophy.

Some help: (none / 0) (#217)
by Futurepower on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 03:33:43 AM EST

1) Read "The Primal Scream" by Arthur Janov, and do what is suggested.

2) Nicotine is a powerful drug that supresses self-awareness. Use nicotine when you find you cannot handle the effects of your inner conflict. Unfortunately, the only method I know of immediate delivery is smoking, but that is better than losing confidence in yourself. I understand that there is nicotine gum, which I would imagine acts in about 25 minutes, or maybe less on an empty stomach.

I just submitted part III (none / 0) (#219)
by MichaelCrawford on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 03:40:11 PM EST

Living with Schizoaffective Disorder (Part III) is in the edit queue as I write this. Please go have a look, and when the time comes, vote on it.

Until part III is approved by the moderators, the above link will only work if you're a logged in K5 member. Once it (hopefully) gets approved, the link will work for everyone.


--

Live your fucking life. Sue someone on the Internet. Write a fucking music player. Like the great man Michael David Crawford has shown us all: Hard work, a strong will to stalk, and a few fries short of a happy meal goes a long way. -- bride of spidy


Drugs fsck you up!!! (3.50 / 2) (#221)
by hughk on Fri Apr 18, 2003 at 06:33:41 PM EST

I lived for a while in a small city that had a tightly related group of people living there, mny of whom were related. They were intelligent and well educated but unfortunately bipolar depression was endmic there.

Many people were under medication, but essentially it is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. ECT more so. Even simpler drugs such as Lithium Carbonate have side effects on the liver when used over an extended period. Thorazine is horrible I have seen its effects on a friend and it wasn't nice.

In the end it seems to be better when then those who can avoid medication do so. Their behaviour may seem a little strange, but if they can function as human beings, I say leave them alone. Creativity seems to be something that comes best out of a slightly unbalanced mind. At the same time, when you look at the instance of Vincent Van Gogh, it is one hell of a trade off. It is arguable that some his best work came out of his psychotic episodes, but in the end he killed himself. With drugs, he probably wouldn't have committed suicide, but at the same time, we would never have benefited from his work?

I don't know when behaviour modification therapy is appropriate but it seems to be a whole lot better than medication.

Risperdal. (none / 0) (#226)
by V on Sun Apr 20, 2003 at 01:37:19 AM EST

What else is risperdal for?

The psychyatrist gave me a bunch of pills telling me they would help me sleep better and help the prozac.

Now that I have read this and googled for risperdal realiza that it is actually a drug for psychosis.

This gives me creeps.

V.
---
What my fans are saying:
"That, and the fact that V is a total, utter scumbag." VZAMaZ.
"well look up little troll" cts.
"I think you're a worthless little cuntmonkey but you made me lol, so I sigged you." re
"goodness gracious you're an idiot" mariahkillschickens

Living with Schizoaffective Disorder (Part II) | 244 comments (206 topical, 38 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!