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Fatal Overdose Caught on Webcam and IRC

By kpaul in MLP
Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 01:01:19 AM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags)
Culture

Helen Kennedy recently reported in the New York Daily News about the January 12th death of a man in front of a webcam while chatting on the #shroomery IRC channel. As Brandon Vedas mixed pills, alcohol and pot, some egged him on while others tried to get him to stop. From the article:

Vedas died online as a crowd of virtual onlookers egged him to "eat more!" A chilling record of the Jan. 12 chat reads like an Internet version of the notorious 1964 Kew Gardens, Queens, stabbing of Kitty Genovese as her neighbors watched from their windows.
On January 21, the users of MeFi discussed this online. The next day, they were asked to take the thread down. This sparked another thread on whether or not to delete the posts. A link to the IRC logs and Brandon's obituary is also available.


In March of last year, another young man took his own life after becoming addicted to EverQuest. Shawn Woolley's mother is suing Sony Online Entertainment, saying that the game led to her son's death.

While some have used the Internet to leave suicide notes as a sick practical joke, others have used it to stop suicides.

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Poll
Brandon's death
o is old news. 16%
o is sad. 21%
o is a sign of the times. 8%
o is worth discussing. 11%
o is creepy. 15%
o doesn't affect me. 26%

Votes: 256
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o recently reported
o chatting
o #shroomery IRC channel
o discussed this online
o another thread
o link to the IRC logs
o Brandon's obituary
o took his own life
o suing Sony Online Entertainment
o leave suicide notes
o stop suicides
o Also by kpaul


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Fatal Overdose Caught on Webcam and IRC | 124 comments (85 topical, 39 editorial, 0 hidden)
sickos! (1.44 / 34) (#6)
by guyjin on Sun Feb 02, 2003 at 11:51:05 PM EST

the sickos who egged the poor bastard on should die... no, wait, death is too good for them. Lock them in a room, let them nearly starve to death, feed them cow manure, and then let them starve again. Repeat as desired.
-- 散弾銃でおうがいして ください
This could've been prevented (1.82 / 23) (#23)
by egg troll on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 02:27:29 AM EST

Had leftists not been busy obstructing the TIA project of the American gov't, an astute Federal agent may have noticed this and been able to summon medical help. How many more deaths will occur before people realize how vital the Total Information Awareness project is to our safety?!?

He's a bondage fan, a gastronome, a sensualist
Unparalleled for sinister lasciviousness.

If someone wants to end there life (2.70 / 10) (#25)
by monkeymind on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 04:51:33 AM EST

It is there right.

Better in a chat room then taking several others with them in public with a gun.

I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people and assume the deserve it.

boo fucking hoo (3.20 / 20) (#28)
by Psycho Les on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 07:22:44 AM EST

What an idiot.

This is nothing like the stabbing incident (3.93 / 16) (#30)
by creo on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 07:34:49 AM EST

Not even close - this was not a party of people in the real world watching some poor woman getting murdered. It was a group of like minded individuals egging on another like minded individual to play stupid games.

The closest personal parallel I have is that when I was younger (and way stupider) we used to have road racing competitions on public roads on our bikes. This also involved bonus things such as wheelstanding, sliding through corners and other very stupid, but very fun stuff. One time I wheelstood through an intersection (through a stop sign) of a 4 lane main road. The only reason I did not die was because at the time there was no traffic. If I had, well, then I guess I would have won the Darwin award for that year.

Basically stupid young men egged on by other stupid young men do stupid shit, and die. The ones that survive mellow out, have kids and post on K5.

Boo Hoo, the sympathy meter reads 0. Same shit, different medium. Next loser....

I want a fucking certificate (3.92 / 13) (#34)
by Random Number Generator Troll on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 08:15:44 AM EST

There is nothing about me or my life that is even vaguely interesting nor worthwhile, thus in order to gain acceptance I must resort to attention-whoring of the highest order. I must go out and buy myself a big fucking medallion, and let the world know I am proud of my shallow, one-dimensional personnality, my few but predictable, naive, uninformed and self-centered world views, and how my desperate dependance on how others see me starkly contrasts with my total lack of empathy.
If this kid was younger, in the merciless throws of puberty, I would have sympathy. But he was 21 for fucks sake. What...a...fucking...idiot.

Tricking your instincts (4.55 / 9) (#45)
by Edgy Loner on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 12:46:09 PM EST

Humans are social animals and are instinctivly aware of the presence of other humans around them. When you are alone, at some level you are aware of that fact, and exercise appropriate caution. You know that if you get in trouble there is no one there to help you. When in a group a human will be more confident and willing to take more risks, secure in the knowledge that help is close at hand. These feeling exist at the instincual level and operate independent of concious thought.

An environment like IRC or some other telecommunications system can trick these instincts. The human will feel as if they are surrounded by others and will have the confidence of nearby help. In fact there is no help and they are quite alone and vulnerable. Reckless or foolhardy behavior that might be survivable if others are there to step in can become quite lethal in this situation.

Just something to keep in mind.

This is not my beautiful house.
This is not my beautiful knife.

Bye bye (3.42 / 14) (#50)
by SwampGas on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 01:24:14 PM EST

Reminds me of people who shoot themselves because they didn't bother to make sure their guns were unloaded.

Reminds me of drunk drivers who kill themselves.

Reminds me of people who get killed in the process of armed robbery.

...in other words, it reminds me of people for who I have no sympathy.  If you're dumb enough to do it in the first place, here's your sign, here's your darwin award, seeyalaterbye.

Anyone notice.... (3.00 / 4) (#61)
by thekubrix on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 07:08:30 PM EST

the irony that he was in the IRC channgel #shroomery, yet of all the drugs he consumed, none of them were shrooms......

Suicide? (4.66 / 6) (#62)
by thekubrix on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 07:15:40 PM EST

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as suicide. I see it more as a dysfunctional drug abuser who pushed it too far. If you read the log (I just skimmed it, mainly looking at his posts) you'll note that he gave the chatroom his cell phone # so the chat room will "call if I look dead". Would a suicidal person do that? He also mentioned how he would consume these level of drugs every weekend so this abuse of drugs wasn't a rare occasion. How is this a suicide?

But but but... (2.31 / 16) (#63)
by NaCh0 on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 07:58:29 PM EST

But I read on the internet that drugs should be legal because they aren't harmful to anyone.

1 druggy down...millions to go.

--
K5: Your daily dose of socialism.

Jesus (3.66 / 9) (#66)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 08:35:48 PM EST

I seem to be reposting a lot of comments from diaries tonight. Oh well.

I honestly don't know what to say. Maybe this could have been prevented if we didn't have such moronic, irrational views about drugs. If society made any distinction between casual drug use and abuse, maybe he wouldn't have felt he had something to prove. If he had any conception of responsible drug use he might have recognized how silly and dangerously he was acting. Of course there will always be people killing themselves in dumb ways, no amount of attitude-changing can prevent this kind of thing from happening occasionally.

Also, where the hell did he get methadone? You don't get that unless you're recovering from addiction. Who gives an addict benzodiazepines though? He was taking klonopin and restoril, both tranquilizers, and the article said he got them legally. Some doctor has some serious answering to do here.

--
jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.

Darwin Award? (4.30 / 10) (#68)
by mstefan on Mon Feb 03, 2003 at 09:56:05 PM EST

I think it's pretty clear that this wasn't a suicide attempt, it was plain old stupidity. A young kid who thought that's he was immortal and could get away with shovelling a lot of pharmaceuticals down his throat.

The truly deplorable thing in all of this was the reaction of the people who provoked him and then watched him implode in real time. Welcome to the 21st century.



Stupid (3.88 / 9) (#79)
by Sheepdot on Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 02:42:24 AM EST

Stupid people don't frighten me. Their relatives, however, scare the ever-living-fuck out of me.

Who's the first to ask for that shiny new law against X after their stupid brother/cousin/son/uncle/father makes a completely idiotic mistake? Who demands that some insane bill pass into federal law when their sister/mother/daughter/aunt/niece dies due to a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I'm sorry, but I hope the relatives of this moron don't try to spread their grief in a futile effort to make themselves feel better for the stupid death of their kin.

Mixing drugs (4.00 / 4) (#85)
by kraft on Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 04:41:25 AM EST

All the controversy aside, there are relatively safe ways of consuming drugs, and there are dangerous ways of consuming drugs.

Andrew Weil, MD, author of my favorite drug book, "From Chocolate to Morphine", is very liberal on drugs, but even he says the number one danger is combining different drugs:

"in many more cases the effects of drug combinations are unpredictable, depending more on the individual and on set and setting than on pharmacology. Mixing drugs can increase the problems associated with individual drugs and may create some new ones [....] Drug combining is a problem in medicine as well. Medical patients often receive many prescription drugs simultanerously and doctors are often ignorant about how they interact"

Other major problems with drugs, in case you wanted to know, are:
- uncertainty of dose and quality (make sure that the pill you bought really is E)
- setting (basically: take the drug with people you can trust in a setting you can be comfortable)
- legal problems (I think you get this one)

The book is highly recommended.

--
a signature has the format "dash-dash-newline-text". dammit.
Disgusting (2.36 / 11) (#90)
by hbw on Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 10:20:41 AM EST

This is unbelievable. The guy needs urgent help right where he starts taking the first "wave" of drugs, yet the idiots in the chat are only hardly considering calling the police when he's practically dead!

It makes me very sad, and angry. I read the whole chat. What a bunch of ignorant idiots, pepping this poor guy into taking more and more, until his judgement is (if it wasn't already when the chat started) completely wiped out.

I find many of the comments in this article macabre, and utterly disgusting. How dare you, first thing you do after reading the article, defend drugs as a sound form of "entertainment"? This guy fucking died from it! Even worse are those who make lame attempts at jokes.

If this isn't the ultimate evidence that drugs should be rightfully banned, I don't know what is.

I have discovered a truly marvelous signature, which unfortunately the margin is not large enough to contain.

I'm all for personal responsibility... (4.75 / 12) (#91)
by bsletten on Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 10:21:49 AM EST

But I am shocked at the callous response from the self-righteous K5 crowd. Something can be stupid and regrettable at the same time.

Life isn't black and white, folks. We as a society engage in risky behavior every day. It is a matter of extents and expectations. As individuals, we make choices and should bear the consequences accordingly, but you don't have to be an ass about it.

How far does your insensitivity extend? Do you scoff at the heartattack victim for not doing enough to reduce the stress in his life? Do you mock the commuter who died in the car crash on their way to work in an urban, congested area?

Let us not hold ourselves above our fellow human beings, no matter how great the disparity. To withhold your scorn is already beautiful. -- Deng Ming Dao

I never said they were the same (3.00 / 2) (#96)
by bsletten on Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 12:05:03 PM EST

I said all of these behaviors are on a continuum and I don't personally see where you draw the line and say, "Gee, that idiot deserved to die because he was being stupid."

The method of dying can be glorious or ignominious, but the net effect is the same. Death is death and loss is loss and I'm appalled at the insensitivity shown in this discussion.

Unfortunately... (4.33 / 3) (#106)
by Random Number Generator Troll on Tue Feb 04, 2003 at 03:43:57 PM EST

...had this kid lived, most of the people on the channel would have thought he was the shit. I would be amazed if others present didn't try and beat his 'record'. Maybe it's best an early player died and scared everyone off. I don't think a short trip to ER would have had the same effect.

And over 80 people in the US (3.40 / 5) (#111)
by BLU ICE on Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 02:09:08 AM EST

Die in car wrecks per day. This is just sensationalism by the mass media again. The news media taking advantage of people's natural fear of new things.

"Is the quality of this cocaine satisfactory, Mr. Delorean?"
"As good as gold."

-- I am become Troll, destroyer of threads.
It's like an encyclopedia...sorta: Everything2

He's a goddam American hero (3.66 / 3) (#114)
by spakka on Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 09:52:07 AM EST

He had the daring and the discipline required of his calling. He knew great endeavors are inseparable from great risk, and he accepted those risks willingly, even joyfully, in the cause of discovery. For him, it was a dream fulfilled. All mankind is in his debt.

Too familiar, sadly (5.00 / 4) (#118)
by cgenman on Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 01:03:51 PM EST

[05:02] <hast> im not sitting here flipping my fuckin wig
[05:02] <grphish> 340mg
[05:02] <Oea> LOL
[05:02] <hast> call the hospital
[05:02] <hast> thats that
[05:02] <hast> i'm out
[05:02] * hast has quit IRC (Leaving: good luck)
[05:02] <grphish> hast is on crank
[05:02] <Oea> he's gone i tell you
[05:02] <Oea> If ripper dies
[05:02] <Oea> i got tabs
[05:02] <Oea> on hsi drugs
[05:09] <Oea> CALL
[05:09] <Oea> THE
[05:09] <Pnutbot> a piece of shit
[05:09] <grphish> almost
[05:09] <Oea> FUCKING
[05:09] <grphish> :((((
[05:09] <Oea> COPS
[05:09] <Pnutbot> COPS are blind followers
[05:09] <grphish> NO
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222

They're all conflicting emotions you go through when someone you know is overdosing.  If you call the cops, and you are right, they live but go to jail for the rest of their lives.  If you call the cops and you're wrong, they just go to jail for the rest of their lives.  If you don't call the cops and they aren't OK, they die.  If you don't call the cops and they are OK, then everything is ok and hopefully they will have learned their lesson.

The only outcome that is really any good is that they're not overdosing, and you don't call the cops, so everyone stalls and stalls.  The tension is too much so you make jokes.  It's very uncomfortable.  Nobody wants to make that call, and somebody wants the police to never be called in.  There is always some lame-ass excuse for a second solution like "My cousin ronnie has a stomach pump kit" or "just get him to drink like, a ton of water."  Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.  But they have a tendency to grind the deliberation to a halt.  

What went on there that day with his friends was a very human response to a complicated situation.  Some people do get an almost inhuman tolerance for drugs.  This guy pushed the bounds of believeable, but in a tense situation it is easier to believe what he says than to be the one to condemn him to a life of prison.  Maybe Poision control could have worked.  Not likely, but maybe.  That maybe sounds a lot better than reporting him to the police, and probably getting sent to jail too.  

Overdosing on drugs should not be illegal.  Being with someone who overdosed on drugs and helping them to get care should not be illegal.  Period.  You can keep non-overdose drug use as illegal, but if at any point anyone overdoses, it should be beyond police jurisdiction even if they are called in to help.  We're talking about people's lives here... nobody should have to weigh someone else's incarceration against their survival.  Nobody should have to weigh everyone's incarceration against that person's survival.

In the meantime, teach your children that it is a lot better to spend a little time in prison, than to live with a death on your hands.  Many police won't prosecute OD's, so you're better off trying your luck with the system when bringing someone to safety than trying to hide from an "investigation".

[05:49] <grphish> thats kinda freaky
[05:49] <hast> yeah
[05:49] <hast> then all the logs get to be analyzed
[05:49] <hast> and we all get to be investigated
[05:50] <hast> yes
[05:50] <grphish> oh shit
[05:50] <Pnutbot> shit is going to hit the fan soon
[05:50] <grphish> you're rifght

- This Sig is a mnemonic device designed to allow you to recognize this author in the future. This is only a device.

Something to Ponder (5.00 / 3) (#119)
by jefu on Wed Feb 05, 2003 at 02:55:21 PM EST

Not long after seeing this discussed on MetaFilter I was on WebCamNow.com on the adult section. (I admit to being fascinated by net sexuality.)

One of the cams was showing what could be taken to be a person being cut with a scalpel - complete with blood. I, personally, did not think it was real, but several people did and at least one said that the police should be contacted.

After the "ripper" incident, I was feeling a bit on the cautious side and tried to find a way that I could use to do something if I felt that things were getting out of hand.

While webcamnow provides email for support and the like, there is no clear way to contact them that is immediate and gets to someone responsible. Furthermore, there is no obvious way to get an IP number for any given chatter or broadcaster. (I did find a way to get an IP number for a chatter, but not all broadcasters chat or even chat with the same nick.)

On IRC, and on ripper's webcam, finding the IP is pretty straightforward, but from there, actually reaching the person may be far more difficult. In this case, someone had the sense to do a whois but the phone numbers are fake (555 exchange).

Even given that you can get an IP its not clear to me that that will lead to a route to find the physical address needed to do anything in person. For example, I have DSl through verizon - would you be able to get information to/from verizon quickly enough to respond to an event like this? (My experience with such has not been positive - on a local Search And Rescue mission a couple of years back we had a lost party with a cell phone and the cellular companies were almost no help for several things, and since it was a holiday finding out that they were no help took forever.)

Supposing you can get a real address (or phone number), the question of contacting the authorities is another tricky one. Ideally I'd try to find a friend locally to check on a person in a situation like this, but someone who spends lots of time on irc and the like may not have many local friends. Second, I'd try to find a local drug rehab or support group. And only last would I contact law enforcement. But which of these is likely to be most accessible over the net? Law Enforcement. And in this case I'd hesitate a bit before calling the police - the sheriff responsible for the phoenix area is quite proud of his hard line, aggressive, even nasty approach to drug users. Would being tossed into the criminal "justice" system have been good for ripper? He might still be alive, but on his way to 10 years in prison. Or 10 years in mental institution confinement.

Even granting that a viewer/listener/reader has access to a means to help someone, even granting that this is the right thing to do, its still necessary for the observer to determine that it needs doing. I started out watching someone doing something that looked like cutting another person's skin. It looked fake to me, but even granting that it was not fake it could easily be in the range of acceptable behavior to the people involved. At what point can an observer determine that the actions being observed are real and dangerous? IRC in particular is an environment that invites, even requires, fantasy. Webcams, while providing a visual look at things don't necessarily provide a real look.

Both environments also provide a social context. Read the logs of the last conversations involving ripper and see where (even if) you really decide some action needs to be taken.

This incident, while it stirs feelings of regret for the loss of this life, also raises questions that will perplex me for a while - those posted here among them, but others as well.



Fatal Overdose Caught on Webcam and IRC | 124 comments (85 topical, 39 editorial, 0 hidden)
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