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Ectogenesis - Panacea or Ethical Nightmare?

By catseye in Technology
Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 05:51:49 PM EST
Tags: Science (all tags)
Science

Stem cell research, abortion, teenage sex, cloning, genetic manipulation, surrogacy... nothing seems to raise the red flag more than reproductive issues. Add ectogenesis to the list.

Ectogenesis is the development of an organism in an artificial environment and when it comes to humans, it is no longer something out of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Scientists have been attempting to create artificial wombs since the 1950s, but it was not until the 1990s that fetuses survived in them for more than a few hours.


Recent Advances

Dr. Hung-Ching Liu of Cornell University and her team made headlines in 2002 when they actually grew a human uterus by taking endometrial cells and growing them over a scaffolding in the shape of a uterus. The scaffolding dissolved as the cells grew into uterine tissue, which was then supplied with proper nutrients and hormones. To test the womb, embryos left over from in vitro fertilization (IVF) programs were introduced, and they actually began to settle properly. The experiment was halted after six days. An interview with Dr. Liu gives more details on the process.

In Japan, Yoshinori Kuwabara of Juntendo University conducted his experiments on goats. Goat fetuses were removed from their dams and placed in clear plastic tanks filled with amniotic fluid, their umbilical cords connected to machines that removed waste and supplied nutrients. The fetuses were kept alive for ten days in this experiment, and later experiments extended the time to three weeks. After removal, some goats lived for a few days, and others for much longer.

Artificial Wombs as a Panacea for Many Reproductive Problems

  • During in vitro fertilization, it will make it possible for doctors to keep the embryos in the lab a little longer, to see which ones are most viable before implantation.
  • Women who are diagnosed with Preeclampsia or HEELP early in pregnancy would no longer need to spend months hospitalized or in bed. The only cure for these conditions is delivery of the baby, and right now all that can be done is to keep the woman as immobile as possible until the fetus can survive outside the womb. If an artificial womb was an option, the fetus could be transferred to it while the mother regains her heath.
  • Artificial wombs will allow women with damaged uteruses (or other medical conditions that make pregnancy dangerous) but viable ovaries to have their own genetic children without resorting to surrogacy, which can bring all sorts of legal hassles into the picture.
  • Premature babies could be placed in artificial wombs instead of incubators, and allowed to continue development in the proper environment. Currently, mechanical ventilation damages lungs, and many very premature babies end up brain damaged or developmentally delayed due to lack of proper respiration.
  • From a purely selfish point of view, it would even allow women who simply do not want to be pregnant to have children. Although it is the most natural thing in the world, pregnancy can turn a woman's life upside down in Western society. Careers are interrupted or no longer possible, education must be postponed, and unemployed pregnant women find it almost impossible to find a job other than temp work.
  • Artificial wombs would be a reasonable and perhaps welcome alternative to abortion.

Ethical Issues Surrounding Artificial Wombs

  • If artificial wombs provide safer environments than natural ones, it might be possible for pregnant women to be forced by the courts to have their fetuses placed in artificial wombs instead. In the case of a crack addict mother, this is probably not a bad thing, but given the nature of our court system, a social worker could see a pregnant woman wearing a seat belt improperly or performing a risky activity, and have the fetus removed from her for its own good.
  • Combine artificial wombs with cloning technology and a donor egg, and gay males can actually have their own biological children. While many people would see this as something amazing and wonderful, right wing conservatives and the ultra-religious would become apoplectic.
  • Health insurance companies might encourage or even require that pregnancies occur this way, simply because it would be cheaper for them in the long run.
  • Companies  might attempt to write clauses into employment contracts stating that if a pregnancy interferes with work, then the fetus must be transferred into an artificial womb. While the average fast food clerk, secretary or computer programmer might not have to worry about that, female executives or laborers would.
  • Would mothers feel less attached to babies to whom they did not give birth to?
  • It would be easier for researchers to harvest fetal tissue for research, giving rise to numerous ethical and legal issues.
  • Could this lead to eugenics?
  • How do the major world religions feel about it?
  • Would their be any complications or developmental issues for the fetus before or after birth due to things that might be missing from an artificial womb, such as maternal heartbeat, hormones generated by mood, touch, etc.

Artificial Wombs -- The End of Elective Abortion?

Most of the benefits or issues stated above are fairly straightforward, but using an artificial womb as an alternative to abortion deserves more discussion.

Abortions can be separated into five categories:

  1. Gross defects or abnormalities in the fetus that are 'incompatible with life'.
  2. Defects or abnormalities in the fetus that would seriously restrict quality of life.
  3. Clear and present danger (physical) to the mother's life.
  4. Danger to the mother's psychological well being.
  5. Convenience/Birth Control.

Abortions would probably still be the preferred choice for category 1 in many cases. For example, if ultrasound and other scans detect that the fetus is missing critical internal organs, has anencephaly, is an improperly split conjoined twin, and will either be stillborn or die shortly after birth, abortion is still an option, although when artificial wombs are commonplace, surgical and other treatments may become possible that were not possible with the fetus in utero.

In the case of category number 2, abortions are sometimes performed if the fetus is found to have gross deformities or genetic defects that would leave the child either severely retarded, grossly deformed, or developmentally restricted in other ways. If the conditions cannot be corrected by doctors (with appropriate advances in medical technology that would most likely go hand in hand with artificial wombs due to easier access to the fetus), then this remains a grey area.

If artificial wombs were available, abortion would no longer be necessary for categories 3-5. The embryo/fetus could be safely removed and placed in an artificial womb until development is complete.

In all cases, after moving the fetus to an artificial womb, parents would have the option of deciding whether to keep the baby or give it up for adoption, just as they do now. When the technology becomes commonplace, the cost of maintaining the fetus in an artificial womb full term might be comparable to the cost of an abortion. In addition, religious and conservative groups that currently spend millions protesting and lobbying against abortion should subsidize the cost for low-income women; anything less would be immoral and hypocritical.

The mere existence of a functioning, affordable artificial womb would turn Roe vs. Wade on its ear. Roe vs. Wade, the US Supreme Court decision making abortion a constitutional right, was based on a woman's right to privacy, which included the right not to be pregnant, and viability, the ability of the fetus to survive outside the mother's womb. Viability is currently listed as 24 weeks, but technically the embryo would be viable outside the mother's body from the moment of conception, if an artificial womb were available. As well, artificial wombs satisfy the woman's right to not be pregnant. By this logic, elective abortion could become illegal in the United States.

Fortunately, full-term ectogenesis for humans in still future science, and we still have time to consider the ethical, moral and legal ramifications of such technology. Placing fetuses in artificial wombs short-term, however, is practically right around the corner, and we had best prepare ourselves for it. While I have no opinion as yet on whether ectogenesis should be preferable to natural pregnancy, I can see nothing but good coming from the ability to provide an artificial, but safe and viable, environment for premature babies in which to finish developing.

Other Sources:

Guardian Unlimited: Men Redundant? Now we don't need women either
Nature Magazine: Artificial Wombs: An out of body experience
Reason Online: Babies In a Bottle

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Related Links
o Aldous Huxley
o Brave New World
o grew a human uterus
o interview with Dr. Liu
o experiment s on goats
o Preeclampsia
o HEELP
o anencephaly
o Men Redundant? Now we don't need women either
o Artificial Wombs: An out of body experience
o Babies In a Bottle
o Also by catseye


Display: Sort:
Ectogenesis - Panacea or Ethical Nightmare? | 246 comments (228 topical, 18 editorial, 0 hidden)
I have to go re -read it. (4.00 / 5) (#1)
by Easyas123 on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 12:54:35 PM EST

Before I do any editing, but that is the way to start an argument!

***********************
As the wise men fortold.

Nice. +1 (none / 1) (#13)
by Easyas123 on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 02:37:40 PM EST

The only thing I can think to add, (and this has it's own set of baggage), is a religous view.

I appreciate that the main thrust of your article was medical, but many people will not separate the issue of abortion with the one of souls. We already have issues with cloning and stem cells, I can only imagine the furor over artificial wombs.

I like this as written, but be prepared for this slant.

***********************
As the wise men fortold.

it will play out like this (4.30 / 23) (#15)
by circletimessquare on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 03:01:39 PM EST

rich women who don't want stretch marks/ flabby tummies will pay hand over fist to do this first... they may have to do it in cuba or china because of the moralists in the west who will make this illegal. rumors will spread everywhere about how fabulous so-and-so rich movie star/ ms. wife-of-ceo looks after having a few kids and why.

in places like cuba/ china where this procedure is legal, the procedure will become more public and commonly known, and begin to trickle down into the upper middle class, then the middle class, and gain enthusiastic acceptance in these countries.

a division in the world will appear between those areas of the world where this is legal- china, cuba, versus those where it is illegal- the us, ireland. in places where it is illegal, women who see how their brethren in cuba and china who have nice flat tummies and children at the same time will face the usual cast of suspects in the west who fight their attempts at legalizing this procedure tooth and nail: the fundamentalists, the moralists.

gradually, piecemail, nations where ectogenesis was initially illegal, but who are more socially progessive than the us, such as canada, japan, italy, etc... they will allow this procedure to become legal. but the reactionary religious places similar to the us- ireland, the philippines, etc., they will continue to resist this procedure for a long time to come, and only the upper middle class women from these countries will be able to fly elsewhere to get this done in secret. they will face no social stigma amognst their friends back home for doing this, only envy form those under pressure from their moralizing relatives, or suffering from simple fear of being caught. some will be "outted" by religious bigots and hypocritical moralists similiar to how homosexuals were "outted" by some radical homosexual groups in the early 90s/ late 80s.

the slow acceptance of ectogenesis will play out similar to the debate over abortion, of which the debate is currently dwindling and there is growing acceptance. ectogenesis will face the same of arc of initial fierce resistance from luddites and reaciotnary moralists, lapsing into concern and begrudging acceptance, to eventual psychological acceptance of that which is initially perceived as a want, seen as inevitably to be a need... as is the arc with all controversial technology: look up the definition of the word "luddite" and automated looms, or look at the current death throes of the music industry on the face of inevitable file sharing.

and of course, there is nothing wrong with ectogenesis at all, it is just the age old story of human existence- new technology faces fear and distrust in the eyes of some, and eventually gets accepted as the distrustful, closed-minded reactionary types die off.

mark my words, the us and europe will fall behind china and the far east in general when it comes to biotechnology. the luddites will successfully roadblock research in the us and europe in frankenfood, stem cell research, etc., and all of the great advances throughout the 21st century in the field of biotechnology will happen in china and the far east. to what end result? china and the far east will reap trillions of dollars and happier, long-lived, cancer and heart attack free citizens. those trapped in the reactionary west will look on in envy to china and the far east much as parts of the world look on in envy at the west today with our high tech.

you embrace the future or you fall behind, simple as that folks. fear the moralists and fundamentalists: they spell the doom of the west. i'm so glad y'all wish women to continue suffering through childbirth, so nice of you, really. i guess you are sad penicillin got discovered because thousands dying of simple infections is nature's way too.

technology changes the world and what is "natural." simple as that. get used to it.

all of the "concerns" about biotechnology boils down to nothing but fear of the unknown, ignorance, simplistic religious interpretations, and imaginative unfounded paranoia: fear of pod people without souls, armies being bred in secret installations, getting your eggs/ sperm stolen and having your clone/ children bred without your existence, etc.

i just wish some people could draw the line between scientific progress and scientific fantasy.


The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.

Aren't there already enough people in the world? (3.25 / 8) (#19)
by lb008d on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 03:36:34 PM EST



Wait a minute. (3.33 / 6) (#27)
by /dev/trash on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 04:00:45 PM EST

From a purely selfish point of view, it would even allow women who simply do not want to be pregnant to have children. Although it is the most natural thing in the world, pregnancy can turn a woman's life upside down in Western society. Careers are interrupted or no longer possible, education must be postponed, and unemployed pregnant women find it almost impossible to find a job other than temp work.

So somehow once a baby is born, careers are back on track, education can be started, unemployment ends?

---
Updated 07/20/2003!!
Summer Tour!

Attacks on both fronts (4.12 / 8) (#36)
by alientrendy on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 05:15:28 PM EST

The religious right won't go for it, because of the techniques needed to come up with the technology and the challenge to the biblical notion of Eve's curse among women. The far liberal left won't like it because of it's consequences on Roe vs. Wade. People who are moderate in political views that won't find any ethical problems with this technology usually aren't pro-active enough about their views. I can see this technology being terminated by two minority groups that usually have nothing in common.

-----
Hanlon's Razor: ``Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity''.
okay, i'll bite. (2.66 / 6) (#37)
by rmg on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 05:18:48 PM EST

it all depends on what you mean by panacea and ethical.

if by panacea, you mean a cure-all that would fully eliminate the threat of the disease or other difficulty in question, then might the practical advantages outweigh whatever moral issues might come into play here?

of course, this depends on what you mean by ethical. if you mean in some relativist or utilitarian sense, then it could well be that the mere fact of this being a cure-all for whatever trouble we are discussing might override our sentimental inclinations. on the other hand, if you mean to frame the issue in some "objective" or "absolute categorical" sense, then you might run into trouble, because the ends might not necessarily justify the means.

the matter becomes more complex if the author, whoever that might be, means to use the word in a dramatic or hyperbolic sense. then we may be forced to get into a careful weighing of the pros and cons of this new method of ameliorating the situation, problem, or malady in need of amelioration.

this leads us into the question of the nightmare the author darkly alludes to. this could indeed be a nightmare given certain unfavorable conditions -- namely, that the panacea is somehow flawed or imperfect and/or the evaluating party demands an absolute, Kantian standard of ethics. ultimately, we are in a spot though, as there is no way to know for sure what the author means when he says "nightmare."

_____ intellectual tiddlywinks

I'm a misanthrope. (2.60 / 5) (#42)
by debacle on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 05:49:44 PM EST

There's no doubt about it.

I mean, fuck, do we really need more babies? Do we need to dilute the gene pool anymore?

By the way, there's no need to go into any of the regular arguements about gene pools and racism. I wouldn't care if the Aryan race was a bunch of squinty eyed taco-eating dark skinned foreskin-less freaks. Not that there's anything wrong with being a squinty eyed taco-eating dark skinned foreskin-less person.

Evolution is evolution. This, on the other hand, is an abomination.

It tastes sweet.

Elective abortion, reason no 6 (3.66 / 6) (#43)
by tetsuwan on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 06:16:55 PM EST

The fetus is of the wrong sex.

I don't understand why abortions should become obsolete, the main reason being that a child is unwanted with the current partner and that giving away your own child would be unacceptable.

Njal's Saga: Just like Romeo & Juliet without the romance

A Somewhat Related Concern (3.77 / 9) (#52)
by virtualjay222 on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 07:14:32 PM EST

I'm becoming concerned with the state of scientific research in the United States. I can understand the moral arguements against stem-cell research, or ectogenesis, or whatever, but does the federal government really have the right to interfere with the pursuit of knowledge in these areas?

What is the general opinion here on K5 - ends-justifies-the-means, no holds barred research for the sake of science, or caution and values - and why? Where does peer-review fit into all of this?

---

I'm not in denial, I'm just selective about the reality I choose to accept.

-Calvin and Hobbes


Corporate owned children (3.00 / 4) (#70)
by QuantumG on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 10:57:24 PM EST

When it's possible to buy donor sperm and donor eggs on the open market and the artificial womb is a viable technology, what will stop McDonalds from growing the perfect employee? There is that slight problem of the 11 or 12 years between birth and the child's ability to perform basic burger flipping, but perhaps other technologies (like advanced growth and learning) will make that annoying time fly by.

Think I'm crazy? McDonalds just introduced a clause that says that no-one can become a franchisee without completing at least 3 years as a store worker. McDonalds doesn't hire new workers who are over the age of 16 (or whatever the "child wage" laws in your country say). So very soon every McDonalds you go into will by owned by someone who has never worked anywhere else in their lives. The store will be bought with money borrowed or saved as a result of working at McDonalds. McDonalds is, even more than ever, becoming a lifetime career path, and the decision to enter into that career path happens when you're 12 or 13 years old.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.

6. There is nothing more harmful to a society (3.16 / 6) (#72)
by auraslip on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 11:08:07 PM EST

then an unwanted or unneeded child
___-___
Issues (4.50 / 5) (#76)
by bugmaster on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 11:31:49 PM EST

Would their be any complications or developmental issues for the fetus before or after birth due to things that might be missing from an artificial womb, such as maternal heartbeat, hormones generated by mood, touch, etc.
This, in my mind, is the only valid reason to block deployment of artificial wombs. Like any technology, they should not be used if they don't work properly. Note that I said "deployment", not "development" -- if the bugs can be fixed, then by all means, fix the bugs.

The other issues are mostly social in nature, and they all have established solution paths: voting and legislation. For example if we, as a society, decide that it is a mother's right to develop her fetus as sees fit, we should prohibit employers from writing in these nasty "use ex utero or get fired" clauses. If, on the other hand, we decide that the life of the child is paramount, we should pass laws requiring crack mothers to develop their children ex utero... etc. etc.

The "major world religions", eugenics proponents, eugenics opponents, etc. are not a factor in this. At all. They can vote yea or nay, and this is all they can do. For all other issues, this is enough -- so why single out artificial wombs, space travel, monkey racing, or any other technology ?
>|<*:=

Brave New World: A Different Projection (3.00 / 6) (#79)
by Baldrson on Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 11:58:34 PM EST

Some folks who were so concerned about the invention of an artificial womb that they formed a secluded community some decades ago to do what they called "an about face" from the world-wide trends they saw toward take over by "group entities" wrote some books about their ideas. A couple of key books are The Six Disciplines of Man's Being and Man's Relation to Government by Melvin Gorham and Brave New World: A Different Projection by John Harland.

Basically their idea is that sexual reproduction represents a plateu of evolution that occurs when a bunch of clones congregate in a single group entity -- and the eusocial insects are an evolutionary regression rather than an advance.

They believe that Huxley's "Brave New World" is inevitable once certain choices are made about the relationship between government and their concept of sexuality -- particularly as it pertains to humans. The idea is that "sovereignty" is something akin to organic self-sufficiency found in animals and plants -- not ideological -- and is upheld by current civilizations only in the case of female reproductive choice. Male sovereignty is about single combat and is not upheld. This has consequences -- not the least of which is the regressive evolution of civilization toward a eusocial organism. (They don't see female sovereignty as entirely upheld BTW -- they have a much broader definition of "rape" than current laws and consider "rape" to be a capital offense).

I found some of their ideas about the evolution of group entities interesting since they matched to some degree my own belief about differential human evolution based on caloric availability. However they seem a bit too sanguine, for my money, about hybridization in the presence of transportation technology. In any event they are not responding to communications and are no longer publishing new material so far as I've been able to discover. I suspect they were 'dealt with' at some point and no longer exist as a society. The use of single combat to the death as the appeal of last resort in dispute processing is something political leadership finds too threatening to allow to be practiced.

-------- Empty the Cities --------


Weapons and ethics. (2.00 / 6) (#95)
by Fen on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 02:15:59 AM EST

Say a group of people developed artifical wombs, and killed lots of babies in the process--but they have vastly superior weapons. Doesn't ethics become a totally moot point then? Dead people don't moralize, ethicize, or in general blow hot air around.
--Self.
Possible to have strictly technical discussion? (3.00 / 5) (#96)
by Fen on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 02:20:45 AM EST

It's a similar issue with new weapons technology. Cloning, genetic design as well. Is it possible for people to speak strictly about technical matters and ignore "ethical concerns"? I think it's yet another case of human stupidity. It's a lot easier to emotionally think "chemical and bio weapons are evil", than to learn about their technical characteristics.
--Self.
Trolling a bit here, but.... (2.50 / 5) (#98)
by starX on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 02:54:38 AM EST

"In addition, religious and conservative groups that currently spend millions protesting and lobbying against abortion should subsidize the cost for low-income women; anything less would be immoral and hypocritical."

Since when have religious and conservative groups given one wot about acting in "immoral" (or even amoral) and "hypocritical" ways? Some of these folk (Jerry Falwell being the best example in my mind) are every bit as debaucherous as Larry Flynt; but whereas he makes his money with vice, they make theirs with "virtue."  Afterall, what good is having a tele-congregation of thousands if you don't have a monument to yourself, and why waste such a base of voters by not running for political office?  

"I like you starX, you disagree without sounding like a fanatic from a rock-solid point of view. Highfive." --WonderJoust

Common guys! (2.00 / 4) (#101)
by bob6 on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 04:00:24 AM EST

Would you miss that opportunity to have such an womb implanted inside your belly?

Cheers.
crazy (1.57 / 7) (#102)
by loorihc on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 04:12:13 AM EST

Ectogenesis sounds like a sick sex fetish. So does "Panacea".

No end to abortion (4.16 / 6) (#104)
by kvan on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 05:55:26 AM EST

This technology, as you mention, will lead to more people being able to have their own genetic children despite being infertile. Infertile couples, however, are the single largest group of adopters, so there would be fewer adopters for a lot more unwanted babies, were ectogenesis to be used in the interest of obsoleting abortions.

"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, most do." - Bertrand Russell


Lesbians! (2.60 / 5) (#105)
by OmniCognate on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 06:00:31 AM EST

Hey, gay males would be able to have their own biological children, and so would lesbians. However, lesbians would only be able to have female children, because there's no Y chromosome. Strange, that.

Homosapien Park! (2.33 / 6) (#109)
by ksiew on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 07:40:10 AM EST

There was a rich person who was facinated by planet earth. Planet earth whose past is strange as 56 millions years ago the earth was ruled by an ape like species know as homosapiens.

The rich old bastard wanted to bring them back. With financial backing from the banks, he created "Homo Park", using the fossilized dna in the blood of a mosquito trapped in amber for 56 million years and the latest Ectogenesis technology, he brought them all back.

But because of an accident at the park, the bankers become worried, so they send a team of homo palentoligist and a mathematician to investigate the safety aspect of the park.

"Homo will find a way!" said the mathematician. "You kept saying that! You Chausitician!" yap back the old bastard. "Chaostition! I study the non-linear dynamics of mathematics. These homo are more non-linear than you and I can imagine. They never think straight. Besides have you heard my theory of how they blasted themselves with nukes 56 million years ago, blasted to extinction!"

"Ridicules! No species is so stupid as to destroy themselves when there is plenty to go around." the old bastard said.

"Ah! yes but these are homos, they don't think straight like us. They think in a highly non-linear fashion. If there is a weak stop in the park, they will find a way. Have you seen how they look as us. They are thinking, think hard and they are always testing the electric fences trying to find a way out. These creatures are dangerous. They hunt in groups. Nature will find a way."

Hypocrisy (2.40 / 5) (#118)
by blaaf on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 10:15:21 AM EST

In addition, religious and conservative groups that currently spend millions protesting and lobbying against abortion should subsidize the cost for low-income women; anything less would be immoral and hypocritical.

Since when have "religious and conservative groups" had a problem with being immoral and hypocritical? I see lots of wing-nuts dispensing free, unsolicited advice to pregnant teens that they should keep their baby (lest they burn in hell), but I don't see them shelling out diaper money to the same or volunteering to adopt these babies.

Disturbing Trend (3.00 / 6) (#133)
by CENGEL3 on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 01:02:34 PM EST

While I would have no problems with this sort of technology (assuming it was properly tested) when utilized for valid medical reasons (i.e. women that couldn't otherwise have children). I see a bit of a distrubing trend in some of the posts here... lauding this technology because it will make child-bearing "easier" for women (i.e. no gaining weight, no morning sickness, etc).

I think it is a false assumption that having things made "easier" is neccesarly better in every case. Case in point, is the world really so much better off now that any single person can be reached by anyone else (boss, annoying relative, salesperson, etc) 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, no matter where they are or what they are doing?

Some things, I believe, SHOULD be difficult to do.
A momentous decision like bringing another life into the world aught to be one of them. While getting pregnant is easy enough (for some people)... carrying a child in the womb for 9 months certainly isn't (according to every pregnant woman I've ever talked to). At least that experience seems to impart to the woman just how serious a thing becoming a mother really is.

I'm just a little worried that if a woman can drop off a fetus at the local "gestation center" and come back 9 months later at pick up her brand new baby(tm) that it's going to lead to an even more casual attitude about having children...and that's going to be a very rude shock once the reality of actualy raising a child hits home.

Society already has enough problems with people who are ill-prepared to be parents having children (with all the damage it does to those children).... I think anything that helps promote a more cavalier attitude about bringing a child into the world aught to be looked at with a healthy dose of trepidation.

Nothing achieved easly was ever really worth achieving.

Fits well with the end of sex. (none / 1) (#134)
by Fen on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 01:18:18 PM EST

When nobody has to carry a baby inside, there is no real difference between the sexes. So we'll converge on a single form for humans, not the division we have now. It fits well with evolution in general--humans evolved to be very flexible and not have specific roles (like fins for swimming or claws for hunting). The last specific role, that have child bearer versus hunter, will be next to fall. Any sci-fi have this concept in it? It seems inevitable to me.
--Self.
Something troubles me (4.00 / 4) (#143)
by xutopia on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 03:41:44 PM EST

I often get real excited about the benefits of something and then go on realizing that some of the benefits might be a bad thing.

I think there is a general almost sacrilegous problem with the described usages. I may be biased because I hate that our society goes towards more and more dependance on unnatural processes for its own survival.

If we can make artificial wombs and make sure that the process of evolution continues in the natural way I'll be happy. But I'm scared that too many important factors about our well being in the future is going to be lost in such a process.

Happiness through physical means is important. Today we are discovering that DNA is far from the tell-all in someone's makeup. Other factors play a very important part in how the DNA unfolds. The womb is probably the most important of them all.

To me an animal living in a Zoo is not as happy as one living in nature. The difference is that the one in nature has to use it's energy towards finding food and fighting off the right predators. An animal in captivity doesn't have to deal with hunting or running away. These "happiness triggers" are never used in captivity and they walk back and forth to use up that energy they can't use the way their body tells them they should.

I see this ectogenesis as being a zoo-like environnement for our feotuses. I also see it as something that if we start using we'll need more and more off. If someone's genes says that you are to require the usage of such a thing it'll mean that all your children most likely will have that problem too.

Doctors (1.20 / 5) (#145)
by CoolName on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 04:12:34 PM EST

One always finds doctors at the forefront of crazy medicine. Helping people ranks around fourth in terms of medical priorities behind money, fame and dodging malpractice suits for most doctors. Some crazy doctor was trying to clone a human awhile back despite problems with the basic cloning technology. Now apparently there are doctors eager to experiment on babies to perfect those much needed (ha ha)artificial wombs

"What does your conscience say? -- 'You shall become the person you are.'" Friedrich Nietzsche


I have a vision... a horrible, horrible vision... (5.00 / 2) (#149)
by Tatarigami on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 04:41:47 PM EST

On the one hand, I'm almost certain we'll see this technology abused by ultra-ultra-right wing zealots to breed greater and greater numbers of their particular master race.

And on the other hand, I worry that dictatorial left-wing governments will feel free to mandate that a certain percentage of children born each year must belong to a particular racial demographic, and using a technological solution to adjust the numbers.

Given the number of paranoid fears I've dismissed in the past which are coming true at the moment, I don't feel so confident anymore saying this'll never happen.

Eugenics indeed... (2.50 / 3) (#150)
by ckaminski on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 04:52:26 PM EST

Macy's babies, Gap babies... you think it's bad now?

But on the other hand, perhaps more insidious:
  Can this be used as an excuse for forced population control?  Licensed parenthood?

  Harvest your ovaries and testes at puberty, and require intensive testing and licensure to get them back if you don't want standard off-the-shelf Macy's babies?

For illustration (none / 1) (#153)
by mmsmatt on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 05:20:04 PM EST

The Hand of Hope

We know so little (5.00 / 2) (#154)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 05:23:28 PM EST

The amount we know about most things versus the amount that we don't know is very tiny. There's a lot we don't understand about the development process right now, and there could be many conditions in the womb that we're not aware of which affect the baby. I have no doubt that the first babies raised in artificial wombs will have shorter life expectancies, weaker immune systems, and higher risk of developmental disorders. This is similar to how cloned animals appear to suffer from health problems.

It's also possible that there is a certain genetic makeup that is conducive to being raised in an artificial womb. Babies with this trait might have a greater chance of survival. They would pass that down to their children, who would also have a greater chance of survival in an artificial womb and possibly a lesser chance of survival in a real womb. This sounds far-fetched but it is possible that some people's genetics would eventually make them dependent on artificial wombs to reproduce.

--
jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.

genetic vigor (4.00 / 3) (#156)
by Rahyl on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 05:40:32 PM EST

If artificial wombs allow otherwise infertile women to have children, won't those children be more likely to have the same problems?  Wouldn't the artificial womb in this particular case have a short-term pay off in exchange for long-term complications?

Messing with the process of natural selection just doesn't sound like a good idea, call me crazy.

I'm also thinking that a lot of sensory input would be lacking in an artificial environment.  Science already tells us that the mother's movement does have an affect on muscular and neural development.  Is it possible to replicate this movement as well as natural body temperature fluctuation, changes in hormonal and nutrient levels, and other variables?

It's definitely interesting stuff but not a band wagon I'm ready to jump onto just yet :)


No need for donor eggs or sperm (none / 1) (#174)
by wurp on Thu Oct 02, 2003 at 11:01:46 PM EST

You can build a baby all on your own, whether you're a boy or a girl.

We can gather stem cells from adults.  We can also induce stem cells into being sperm cells.  We can also induce stem cells into being egg cells.

Two males, two females, an infertile couple, or even one individual of either sex can be the "mother" and "father" of a baby, assuming that these technologies all pan out.

Reproduction as we know it probably won't be the only, perhaps even the main, option for much longer.
---
Buy my stuff

I hate to burst your bubble (2.71 / 7) (#180)
by Lode Runner on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 01:57:45 AM EST

but artificial wombs for humans are the stuff of speculative fantasy rather than a research goal for today's scientists. Given what we now know about development, artificial wombs are not decades, but centuries off.

I'm pretty familiar with the contemporary biology literature so I can tell you that there isn't any significant interest in this area. Even Lee Silver, who's the champion of nutty reproductive schemes, says that artificial wombs won't be an issue for the foreseeable future. (see Remaking Eden)

Be all of that as it may, much of the discussion related to this story is still valuable because the vast majority of the issues with which you're grappling come up when bioethicists chew over surrogate pregnancy. If you're a woman who has ovaries, but no functioning womb, you can still have a biological child without an artificial womb because you can put your fertilized egg(s) into another woman's uterus. It's already being done, a lot; and there's no reason a sufficiently motivated State couldn't harness/industrialize surrogacy to, uh, meet certain needs. . .

Note also that the possibility of a safe ectopic pregnancy would obviate the need to build an artificial womb. We already know from (a few very unfortunate) real cases that embryos can develop normally even if they completly escape the fallopian tube and enter the mother's body cavity; they attach themselves to a kidney or a liver or whatever and the necessary blood vessels just grow! Of course, getting the baby out without killing the mother is almost impossible. (A corollary of this is that the uterus isn't some unique place where a baby can develop, rather it's a structure that allows the development of a mechanism--the placenta--that enables the mother to safely detach herself her offspring.)

A blueprint for the future. (1.00 / 6) (#199)
by Fen on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 06:41:11 PM EST

A group of men use several different means to remove sex drive (castration, Androcur). They devise a means of injecting sperm DNA into an egg cell, and thus can have biological children from two men. One here, is actually the "mommy" (gives an X), and one is th "daddy" (gives a Y)...how cute. Once they can generate eggs artificially, and develop artificial wombs, women are no longer needed. Women are either made extinct or put in zoos. Genetically, the very same sexual reproduction is taking place. But now is where they can start doing real genetic design. Someone may propose using both X's to make a female, but it wouldn't go far. Why bring a dinosaur back, anyway?
--Self.
* How do the major world religions feel about it? (2.71 / 7) (#200)
by vyruss on Fri Oct 03, 2003 at 10:54:10 PM EST

If anybody gave a flying f**k about that then we'd still believe the sun revolves around the earth.

Sorry but *NOT* intended as flamebait.

  • PRINT CHR$(147)

A couple of points... (5.00 / 4) (#204)
by ksandstr on Sat Oct 04, 2003 at 09:15:42 AM EST

Sure, from a coldly objective technological perspective, the "nothing but good" bit is quite reasonable.  But, take a look at how unbelievably socially backward the US is already with regard to many policies that affect childbirth and conception.  Can you argue that given the social, political and religious atmosphere of the US (given all the right-wing and ultra-conservative taint) that anything good would come out of introducing technology such as described in the article with a straight face?

Shit, most European countries, progressive as they may be, would most likely have a big fucking uproar over things like that.  Even though most of the corporate abuse type things (referring to the health insurance & employer points in the article) could be restricted with contract legislation, as has been done many times when new technology would have threatened the average worker's good, any western-type society must still progress a fair bit further until previously science-fiction technologies such as this could be introduced without causing great big ideological rifts.
(Not to say anything about non-western cultures; I just don't have any clue about those.)

Or maybe not.  Who knows how far we've actually come in the last 20 years?  Many countries on the European pseudo-continent have legislation that allows for a registered relationship between same-sex couples (wrt inheritance rights, etc) and while only some are planning or have already enacted laws allowing for mutual adoption of the partner's children (wrt inheritance and custody rights, etc, again), most every government is under some pressure to do so, with the possible exception of the Vatican.  Maybe this whole in-vitro thing will blow over in the 15 years following the serious introduction of the technology's applications.  Some people will still have the urge to breed naturally (if for nothing else then the aesthetic displeasure of seeing the foetus that is to become your child floating in a tank, being attended to by machines) and even the ultra-conservatives have displayed ability to get over things, to eventually adapt to what is actually happening around them regardless.

Interesting stuff, I must say.


Ethics and Science (2.30 / 13) (#207)
by StrifeZ on Sat Oct 04, 2003 at 05:24:24 PM EST

Coming from a long family tradition of doctors and scientists (300 years under the family name from Medical to Genetics to Engineering and now to Computer Science and Aeronautical Engineering), we've pretty much concluded that for the most part, ethics, especially those imposed by non-scientists, have no place in science. Science is about discovery and development. Declaring something unethical is to throw an artificial roadblock in the way of progess.

Science is a messy, dirty buisness that the weak of heart run from and the strong of mind thrive in. Inserting extraneous things like concepts of right or wrong always leads to long term suffering in the place of short term satisfaction.

Imagine if we had not harnessed the power of the atom to create the nuclear bomb when we did because it was "unethical". The lot less ethical Soviets would have first.

Imagine if organ transplantation had been outlawed becaused harvesting organs from the dead, even under their consent was "unethical". Tens of millions of people would have died.

Look at what is going on with Stem Cells now. While politicans try to debate if the very alive blastyocst is human life, my own dear great aunt is having her brain ravage by progressive neurological deterioration. The blsytocst is very much human life, but the well being of developed humans far outweighs a miserable ball of cells.

Yet people debate the ethics of this.

History has proven time and time and time again. The ends most certainly justify the means. Humans are just to arrogant and stupid to admit that their ethical problems are entirley of their own making and only prey on our emotional weaknessess.

While they debate, millions suffer. Millions die.

In response to this article, let the scientists do whatever they want. They are in the pursuit of discovery. Non-scientists have no buisnesses critquing their work.

Non-scientists do not understand and they can never be expected to be. They don't understand what it means to find or create something.

They are just incapable of understanding...


KITTENS@(_%&@%@_($&@(_$&^@$()&@%@+(&%
While this technology obviously must be forbidden (1.08 / 12) (#237)
by sellison on Tue Oct 07, 2003 at 06:35:14 PM EST

for general use, I can see some good come of it:

we could use it rescue the thousands of innocent 'snowflakes', living human beings who have been created by selfish couples and homosexuals in the process of getting for themselves children they were never meant to have.

But this is the only moral use for this 'science' all other uses should be banned as another technology that will enable the homosexual's dream of cloning themselves at whim.



"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."- George H.W. Bush

some points (none / 3) (#241)
by dh003i on Thu Oct 09, 2003 at 10:55:09 AM EST

Analyzing this from a rational (libertarian) perspective...

First, regarding abortion and the right to choose. The right to choose would most likely not be restricted, but rather expanded to include the option of removing the foetus from the mother's women and placing it in an artificial womb. Questions formerly irrelevant under libertarianism, such as whether or not the foetus is a "person", may become relevant. When abortion or birth are the only options, whether or not the foetus is a "person" is irrelevant; no-one has the right to invade the property of another, least of all one's body, and everyone has the right to take whatever action is necessary to remove unwanted individuals from one's property. If you are tresspassing on my property to obtain shelter, I can throw you out, without myself being obligated to pay for your shelter. The same logic would apply to a pregnant woman. However, one thing that would change is that, if we determine that the foetus is a person, measures be taken to make sure it survives expulsion from the uterus, if possible; however, the woman would not be forced to pay for incubating it in an artificial uterus. Christians could pay for that with their own money if they so chose.

Now, regarding some of your concerns:

If artificial wombs provide safer environments than natural ones, it might be possible for pregnant women to be forced by the courts to have their fetuses placed in artificial wombs instead. In the case of a crack addict mother, this is probably not a bad thing, but given the nature of our court system, a social worker could see a pregnant woman wearing a seat belt improperly or performing a risky activity, and have the fetus removed from her for its own good.

Nope, this would constitute the initiation of violence against the woman. No-one has the right to cut open a woman's body because s/he thinks the woman isn't a fit mother.

Combine artificial wombs with cloning technology and a donor egg, and gay males can actually have their own biological children. While many people would see this as something amazing and wonderful, right wing conservatives and the ultra-religious would become apoplectic.

Who cares what the religious right thinks. It isn't their children. If they don't like homosexuals, fine; doesn't give them the right to prevent homosexuals from having children.

Health insurance companies might encourage or even require that pregnancies occur this way, simply because it would be cheaper for them in the long run.

Well, that's up to them to do or not to. If women don't want to do that, they can find a health company which doesn't require it, or pay a higher premium. For a clear description of how insurance works, and why it's not wrong for insurance companies to request such things or (if not) require a higher premium, see The Insurance Scam.

Companies might attempt to write clauses into employment contracts stating that if a pregnancy interferes with work, then the fetus must be transferred into an artificial womb. While the average fast food clerk, secretary or computer programmer might not have to worry about that, female executives or laborers would.

Well, the woman could always choose to void such contract by not doing so, in which case the company could fire her. If she doesn't like that term, she can look for a company that doesn't require such a thing. Companies that have such dubious requirements are not likely to attract many talented women.

Would mothers feel less attached to babies to whom they did not give birth to?

Depends on the mother. There are millions of adoptive parents who feel very close to their children, despite the fact that they didn't give birth to them.

It would be easier for researchers to harvest fetal tissue for research, giving rise to numerous ethical and legal issues.

Ethical questions can be dealt with by norms and boycotts. If religious people don't like the ethics of fetal tissue research, they can refuse to do business with those who do such, refuse to let them into their churches, and otherwise boycott them and exclude them by norms. Those who don't have any problem with such won't do that.

Could this lead to eugenics?

Eugenics most likely would require gene therapy and genetic engineering, which is also possible in the future. Artificial wombs are not necessary for eugenics, nor do they encourage it. In regards to eugenics, gene therapy and genetic engineering is a choice for every parent to make. Again, those who don't like it can deal with it by norms and boycotts. In no way does it constitute the initiation of violence against anyone else.

How do the major world religions feel about it?

Who cares what the "major world religions" think? If we halted social progress every time they got their panties in a bunch, we'd still be thinking the sun revolves around the earth, we'd all be getting from place to place on horse and buggy, women would still be wearing chastity belts, and we'd all think sex was an evil horrible thing.

Would their be any complications or developmental issues for the fetus before or after birth due to things that might be missing from an artificial womb, such as maternal heartbeat, hormones generated by mood, touch, etc.

The same questions could be made of for incubators for premies. In short, simply because we don't know all of the possible negative consequences doesn't mean we shouldn't proceed. Certainly, the solution to any possible problems is not for government to step in, but to let the free market work unhampered.

Social Security is a pyramid scam.

Hm... (none / 0) (#246)
by SirDvorak on Fri Nov 21, 2003 at 03:39:11 PM EST

I think that the conservative, anti-progress groups that want to stop us for pure sentimentality and otherwise useless feelings should close their mouths.  Like the first person to comment said, if we stopped every time they had a problem, we would be nowhere.

Ectogenesis - Panacea or Ethical Nightmare? | 246 comments (228 topical, 18 editorial, 0 hidden)
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