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Why I'm giving up vegetarianism after 8 years

By danharan in Culture
Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 07:44:09 AM EST
Tags: Food (all tags)
Food

I have been vegetarian for 8 years, with a few forays into stricter diets and the occasional lapse and a few bits of meat eaten at family diners to keep the peace. While I clearly understood my reasons for being vegetarian when I started to eschew meat, for the past year and a half I have very honestly told people that inquired about my odd behaviour that it was only a matter of habit. It is a habit I am about to break. Here's why.


I was 20 when I became vegetarian. I cared about our planet and spent more time reading books than many spend in cathodic worship. Searching for books on the environment, I stumbled upon Diet for a New America in my local public library. Public libraries are wonderful places for unemployed 20-year-olds that haven't decided what institution of higher learning they would mortgage their future to attend. I skipped the first of the three parts of the book, which deals with animal welfare. Diet, I thought, was too important a matter to change on the basis of such emotional nonsense. The last two parts, dealing with health and the environment, were convincing: before finishing the book, I had sworn off meat and started to learn about such exotic foods as tofu and quinoa, convinced that I would live longer and healthier while minimizing my environmental impact.

However, I soon find out that people react very badly to vegetarians. Otherwise rational people might tell me I will turn green and die. In a cold Canadian climate, meat is essential. Everybody knows that. Sometimes, they leer at my plate, and launch into tirades about how much they like meat and how they could never "do it". When people aren't nicely volunteering such information, they are preemptively attacking me for my wicked ways.

While there are some militant vegetarians, most don't think they're superior, or even give a damn that you're eating meat, that you enjoy it, or think you could never live without it. Most won't say "moo" when you're having that steak or hamburger. They are not a threat, so why do some people feel the need to justify their choices? Can't we just "eat and let eat"? Most of the comments I heard were stupid, ignorant and boorish. Like telling the only black person at a party that you know some black people and even have some black friends, telling a vegetarian about how you could never give up meat (maybe even thought of it) just isn't kosher. And don't even think of asking about how we get enough protein or iron - another sure way to advertise your own etiquette deficiency. The etiquette is simple: unless the vegetarian is telling you  how bad you are for eating meat - or how virtuous they are for not doing so, there's no need to dwell on the topic.

The longer I was a vegetarian (and the longer I studied diets) the more I realized how complex the issue was. My very rational decision to give up meat highlighted the irrationality of our society's relationship to food. After 8 years of dietary exile, one thing is clear: not only is our diet bad for our health, our environment or the animals, and it isn't even very tasty. When people say they like the taste of meat, I wonder if they ever eat anything else satisfying. Odds are better than even that their veggies, if something other than potatoes, are always served terminally limp, that their desserts are mostly fat and sugar, and their salad base - if they eat salads - is an uninspiring iceberg lettuce.

Our society has a strange love-hate relationship to food, and I came to realize that for many vegetarians and perhaps most vegans, the decision was an ascetic one. While a strong scientific case can be made for the validity of their diet in terms of health and environmental impact, it often lacks beauty.

Let me be clear about this point: while the diets of vegans and vegetarians often lacks beauty, the diets of most other North Americans almost always lack beauty. SAD is an apt acronym for the Standard American Diet.

So, why, if I believe that the vegetarian diet is scientifically and aesthetically superior, am I going to start eating meat again? (And please note, I am talking about the diet, not the people who practise it!)

First, I believe that superiority to be relative . Our knowledge of diet is too imperfect to make many final statements about what is best for the human body - and we may soon be able to accurately measure what is best for a specific individual. As for environmental impact, hunting and gathering has less impact than a vegan diet- and fewer animals may die from our encroaching on their territory. Given time, chefs will also devise ever more beautiful ways to prepare their dishes, whether or not they contain meat.

More importantly, vegetarianism has a very high social cost. The alienation borne by a vegetarian will often do them more harm than the food they would consume to keep the peace or remain unnoticed. I'm not just thinking the occasional Thanksgiving lapse to please the parental units. There's also the job interviews, dates, sales call, and every day social engagements.

I've tried to understand the reasons for this social cost, even to vegetarians that don't want to make a big deal of their diet. Sometimes - well, ok, often - people are simply stupid, and will just assume you're some kind of weirdo and won't want to talk to you (interesting people usually have the opposite impulse). But refusing food from someone who cooked it surely is horrible karma.

And then there's the reasons we'd usually rather not talk about, starting with gender. A vegetarian woman is less of a problem - "they've always been more emotional". But for a man, barbecuing eggplant and portobello mushrooms is a sure way to have people question your sexual orientation. Real men eat steaks.

Food also helps define our ethnic and even religious identities. No self-respecting Acadian could pass on rapure pie, which Anglos accurately nicknamed frenchman's glue. Gooey-grated potatoes, pressed of their juices, baked in chicken stock- Yum! Turkey at Thanksgiving and Fish on Fridays, Kosher or Halal, all our major religions impose rules or conventions about food. Transgression can alienate you from your ethnic or faith community.

Our culture needs change, and getting this much negative attention puts me at a disadvantage. Worse, a personal 'vegetarian witness' is not the best way to encourage people to have a more sensuous experience with food, or challenge the centrality of meat in our diets.

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Display: Sort:
Why I'm giving up vegetarianism after 8 years | 498 comments (458 topical, 40 editorial, 1 hidden)
Why people don't like vegetarians. (2.07 / 26) (#3)
by duffbeer703 on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 09:24:53 PM EST

Vegetarians like to complain about how people look at them funny and criticize their dietary choices, then wax about how the rest of the world is a pack of ignorant hicks and ramble about the ethical and political implications of meat.

Beef, pork, chicken and fish are things I find delicious. I also love asparagus, beans of various types and salads. When I grill a steak or skewer some chicken, I'm making a meal, not a political statement.

Simple rule (1.96 / 33) (#4)
by godix on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 09:34:28 PM EST

If you don't want us meat eaters to pester you then don't go out of your way to point out you're vegitarian and oh so superior because of it. I don't give a fuck about your eating habits so please return the favor and quit whining about how 'unsatisfying' and 'uninspiring' what I eat is.

Incidently, I could never 'do it'. I personally hate the taste of chlorophyll which eliminates pretty much any green vegetable around.

I don't understand spending all that money for a fancy shot ... when pregnancy ain't nothing that a good coathanger or a pair of steel toed boots can't fix<

You don't win friends with salad [nt] (2.06 / 31) (#5)
by Stick on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 09:37:55 PM EST




---
Stick, thine posts bring light to mine eyes, tingles to my loins. Yea, each moment I sit, my monitor before me, waiting, yearning, needing your prose to make the moment complete. - Joh3n
Would a vegetarian cannible eat a couch potato? nt (2.05 / 19) (#6)
by xC0000005 on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 10:11:52 PM EST



Voice of the Hive - Beekeeping and Bees for those who don't
Maybe it's where I live (2.87 / 31) (#9)
by cestmoi on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 10:22:06 PM EST

Out here in California, being a vegetarian is not something worth commenting on - they're just too common. I've only been accosted once by a vegan who thought she was superior because she didn't eat meat - the rest just avoid meat and don't make any big deal out of it. Hell, it's so common, even Burger King has a vegetarian burger.

So I guess I'm nonplussed after reading your article. You start out saying why you're not going to be a vegetarian, you meander through some social issues, attack meat eater's taste buds and then close with why society should change. If I were a vegetarian, I don't think I'd find your argument to stop being one very convincing.

My reason for not being a vegetarian can be summed up in four words - Texas Road House Ribs. Well maybe add two more, Curly's Barbeque. Meat cooked the way it's meant to be. Nitrates? Bring em on - you only get one go round so it may as well be a wing dinger.

my sister is a vegan (1.54 / 22) (#12)
by paprika on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 10:56:30 PM EST

she says that animal meat is bad for humans and humans were originally vegans, which seems like crackpottery to me. anyway i like to point out that while cooked meat probably isn't good raw meat is great for the human body, cooking does away with a lot of the things needed to digest it properly. i eat 3 raw eggs every day and its very good.

Kucinich is a bitch -paprika

This is why (2.77 / 31) (#14)
by epepke on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 11:09:34 PM EST

When people say they like the taste of meat, I wonder if they ever eat anything else satisfying.

You apparently don't realize how this comment is just as boorish as the comments you don't like. You've got these rules for what people are supposed to say around vegetarians, but then you go and say something like this. Just because I like the taste of meat, fish, and fowl doesn't mean that I am an ignoramus about food.

I have a family recipe for wheat berry stuffing. It's made of hard winter wheat berries, tomatoes, mushrooms, celery, bell pepper, onions, garlic, oregano, bay leaves, cumin, and lemon juice, cooked in broth. I've made it with vegetable broth for my vegetarian friends, and it is eye-wateringly delicious just as is. It just might be better than any all-vegetable dish you have ever had, unless you had the good fortune to get Falafel at the Pocket Sandwich Emporium in Tallahassee before it changed hands fifteen years ago. It's even better made with beef broth. It's even better when used as stuffing inside a turkey.


The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head.--Terry Pratchett


Quit being a pussy... (2.53 / 32) (#21)
by Psycho Dave on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 11:40:48 PM EST

If you don't like to eat meat, don't eat meat.

I've never heard of vegetarians getting so much shit that they would actually start eating stuff they don't like just to appease others. I've lived with two vegetarians, and I loved it. If I didn't want their deadbeat asses eating my food, I just had to make sure there was meat in it.

And though I am a meat eater, I certainly enjoy meatless dishes as well. I can go weeks without eating the stuff and still eat like a king.

If your gonna give up, give up for a decent reason. Your just dying for a decent hamburger, a thick prime rib, some fried chicken, a big ole' greasy Philly cheese steak or a gyro sandwich. Or maybe you want to get more protien in your diet, like you're going Atkins or something. Don't give up because of some dumbasses.

Where on earth do you live? (2.88 / 17) (#22)
by Anonymous 242 on Sat Oct 11, 2003 at 11:51:18 PM EST

In Ohio, the heartland, the state imortalized in the movie Heathers with the statement, "this is Ohio, if you don't have a brewski in your hand you might as well be wearing a dress", it is not all that uncommon to run into vegetarians.

So where do run into actual social ostracization for being a vegetarian?

The day I discovered meat... (2.45 / 22) (#25)
by SwampGas on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 12:07:15 AM EST

My aunt/uncle are vegetarians....we consider them hippies and abnormal.  Other parts of their life are questionable, but growing up I could never imagine why someone would not eat meat.  I swore to myself that when I got older, I'd take my cousin out for a big cheeseburger to show him what he was missing.

Well, I'm all grown up now.  I assume he figured it out on his own.  I never really cared about meat...it was just another food.  I'll eat whatever is infront of me.  Meat was usually well done to shoe leather...all the time.

...and then the Christmas party for the radio station I worked for.  They served meat and it was medium...still some blood and pink.

THAT is when I discovered the taste.  I enjoyed it SO much I went to a steakhouse the next day and ordered a medium Mesquite serloin.  It was excellent.  I found "my" steak.

So do I eat meat for the taste?  Yup.

You're kidding, right? (2.68 / 25) (#26)
by Dietrich Bonhoeffer on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 12:08:19 AM EST

I've been a vegetarian for six years now, and I have never experiences the problems that you complain about.

When I go out to eat with other people, I just order something that doesn't have meat in it, and nobody pays any attention at all. My family, in turn, was happy to accommodate my preferences at holidays and so forth.

I'm not sure why you've had such trouble.

Are vegetarian diets really more healthy? (2.69 / 13) (#27)
by TheModerate on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 12:12:27 AM EST

Thats what I don't understand. I would seriously consider a vegetarian diet otherwise, but that food pyramid they taught me in grade school that we need two or three servings of meat per day. It sounds to me that vegetarians get their protein from soy beans rather than meat, but other than that what's the difference?

And the cultural problems come simply because vegetarianism comes across as feminine. Notice the difference between meat-eating animals and plant-eating animals. For us, we can choose to eat either: what kind of animal do you want to be?

"What a man has in himself is, then, the chief element in his happiness." -- Schopenhauer

Article in a nutshell: (2.38 / 21) (#36)
by gjetost on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 01:14:52 AM EST

"I'm giving up vegetarianism because the social pressure is too great."

so let me get this straight... (2.81 / 27) (#40)
by coderlemming on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 02:35:29 AM EST

You're giving up vegetarianism because:
  1. vegetarianism isn't that much more superior anyway
  2. "normal" people don't like vegetarians
  3. people will think that you're gay
It's time to re-evaluate your decision.

Why'd you become a vegetarian in the first place? 1 above suggests a holier-than-thou reason... that's a bad reason in the first place. The reasons above are pretty much outwardly motivated. In my opinion, the decision of what you eat should come from inside. It's like this: do you enjoy eating meat, or don't you?

I'm a mostly-vegetarian because I don't like meat. I don't like the taste much, and more importantly I don't like how it makes me feel. I started off by not eating beef, as many meat-eaters do anyway, and then realized after awhile that I didn't like many other kinds of meats. Now I eat meat about once a month or so to catch up on any lacking nutrients.

Point is, it should only come down to what you like to eat. And if they think you're gay, throw tofu at them.


--
Go be impersonally used as an organic semen collector!  (porkchop_d_clown)
Bravo (1.50 / 6) (#51)
by psychologist on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 04:59:38 AM EST

I couldn't have said it better.

Oh please (2.57 / 21) (#53)
by ph317 on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 06:05:50 AM EST

First off, let me rebutt some of your statements about meat eaters.  There are many people out there, myself included, with very refined tastes in food, who love the taste of various meats.  I've eaten some incredible dishes at incredible places (the best being at people's homes rather than restaurants of course), but there's always a special place in my heart (or on my tongue) for a warm bloody-rare fillet mignon, as simple and boorish as you may think it is.  And game meats are even better.  A good cut of backstrap off a freshly-killed Nilgai is to die for.  But anyhow, if you don't like meat then don't eat it, and it won't bother me.

And of course, the Standard American Diet sucks.  It needs nutritional improvement.  It needs more veggies.  This is not an argument for vegetarianism.  This is an argument for eating more vegetables.  Get that straight, and stop using that argument.

Contrary to the word on many vegetarian websites out there, humans have always been omnivores, and we've always had meat as a strong part of our diet.  Check out our teeth, our digestive system, hell our whole biological makeup.  It screams omnivore.  And not "eat meat twice a year when available" omnivore - we're the "eat meat every day and throw in some veggies too" omnivore.

That's the diet our bodies evolved with, it's what they want and need.  A sensible diet of traditionally cooked vegetables, meats, and starches serves many healthy humans very well.  The meat does not rot in our herbivore guts and cause disease (another veggie claim I've heard), it doesn't raise cholesterol dangerously high (sure meat has cholesterol, but in a normal diet it won't hurt you.  If you add a bunch of deep-fried fat and little to no exercise... well, that's your problem, not the meat).

To cut off this runaway train of thoughts above - what I'm getting is that there is no practical justification for vegetarianism.  It's all a bunch of whacko pseudo-science.  The only valid justifications for vegetarianism are ones based on religious, environmental, or animal welfare causes.  And anyone who takes a vegetarian stance based on one of these reasons needs to acknowledge that they are bucking human nature and causing themselves dietary problems that need to be closely monitored and made up for.  Stop the lying about other bullshit reasons and just own up to the only valid reasons to do it.

And then there's the radicals.  I don't like people who storm into steakhouses weaing cow suits and screaming that I'm murdering their freinds.  I don't want to hear about how I'm hurting "mother earth" (whoever tf that is) when I drink a glass of milk.  Keep your agenda to yourself, you're in the minority on this issue for good reason.

Debunking all the outrageousness (1.33 / 18) (#67)
by Hide The Hamster on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 10:18:08 AM EST

Your research into the SAD or "Standard American Diet" is fatally flawed. For display, below is a "food pyramid" which deatails the "SAD" as you so coarsely put it:
        /\
       / 1\
      /----\
     /  2|3 \
    /--------\
   /    4|5   \
  /------------\
 /       6      \
/________________\


6: 6-11 servings. This is the grains group, the base carbohydrate food group that supplies you with a more readily available energy source. Breads, cereals, et cetera. Most of these wonderful products come from America's plentiful midwest "breadbasket".
5: 2-4 servings. The fruit group provides necessary vitamins, sugar and fibre. The best fruits from around the world come from the Florida orange and grapefruit groves, Washington and Colorado apple orchards, the peach and nectarine trees of Georgia and the Carolinas. Let us not forget the delicious lime and avocado trees of California. Second to none, completely unfettered and delicious.
4: 3-5 servings. The vegetable group is your major daily source for vitamins and minerals. It's no surprise that the average young American is visibly taller, more muscular, and comparatively more statuesque when lined up with the same age group in other nations. Extra consumption of the necessary growth minerals results in more generally useful gentle American giants. And the most startling blow to your argument that the "SAD" is without vegetables, is that just one serving of vegetables either includes a full cup of leafy greens, slightly compresses, or one-half cup of cooked vegetables. Be they Mississippi green beans or peas, golden weather-resistant Nebraska corn, or Alabama romain lettuce.
3: 2-3 servings. The dairy group provides you with your daily requirement of essential life-giving complex sugars. Largely debunked are the claims made by extremist groups such as PETA that it is not in the natural order for humans to consume dairy. Pitifully flawed.
2: 2-3 servings. The meat group. This is perhaps the most obvious contradiction to your argument. The "SAD" would seem to promote a disproportionate amount of vegetable consumption in comparison. This is due to the tireless effort of extremist Marxist groups like PETA, which lobby against ranchers, creating a hostile atmosphere and hampering the free market. 1: Oils and fats. Miniscule presence in almost any food. May be essentially ignored. Only appears due to extremist lobbyists and their sympathetic California representatives.

So, clearly you have not made the case for at least that section of your argument.


Free spirits are a liability.

August 8, 2004: "it certainly is" and I had engaged in a homosexual tryst.

I was a vegetarian for 3 years (2.27 / 18) (#68)
by Kirsten on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 10:24:38 AM EST

My hope was to eat a healthier diet. It was slow going, but I eventually learned to eat better. Then I realized that one can eat meat without compromising one's health. This is when I decided to swith back to a healthier version of my pre-vegetarian diet.

This has simplified my life enormously without compromising my health. The biggest obstacle was my ego: "people will think I'm weak and have had caved into meat".


:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Research Based Suggestions for a Happier Life

I've had different experiences. (2.18 / 33) (#91)
by Kasreyn on Sun Oct 12, 2003 at 03:35:07 PM EST

While there are some militant vegetarians, most don't think they're superior, or even give a damn that you're eating meat, that you enjoy it, or think you could never live without it. Most won't say "moo" when you're having that steak or hamburger. They are not a threat, so why do some people feel the need to justify their choices? Can't we just "eat and let eat"?

Actually, in my experience, 9 out of every 10 vegetarians I've met have been trendy, stuck-up assholes who are only interested in making themselves feel morally superior to me for eating meat. The other one was usually doing it to get into the pants/panties of a vegan of the opposite gender, or to appease vegan parents.

You also frequently allude to the "rationality" of vegetarianism and the "irrationality" of meat-eating. Please support these claims with proof, otherwise they just make you sound like an idiot.

Our knowledge of diet is too imperfect to make many final statements about what is best for the human body - and we may soon be able to accurately measure what is best for a specific individual.

Exactly MY point when I talk to vegans. We didn't design the human body, Nature or God or space aliens or who knows what did. We can no more decide what fuel is proper for human beings than we can decide to fill our cars up with Mountain Dew instead of unleaded gasoline one day and expect them to work.

I also don't understand this silly notion that vegans are somehow "saving the planet" by not eating meat. First off, it's outright arrogant. The planet is doing fine, has been doing fine, and will continue to do fine no matter WHAT human beings do. We are completely incapable of either harming or defending this planet, so put all notions of it out of your head. 'What about Global Warming!?', you say? Global Warming is just part of Earth's climate self-adjustment system kicking into gear to wipe us out before we can do any real damage. Earth will wipe us out and restore balance in a few dozen million years, which is less than a gnat's fart in the lifetime of a planet. And it will be as if humans never lived. So please, don't trot out this "saving the planet" garbage. It's arrogant and silly in the extreme, and it just makes me laugh.

As to animals dying for man, even if you aren't religious and don't believe in man being given dominion over animals by God, there is still IMO quite good reason not to bother eschewing meat. My philosophy goes like this: I eat; I will be eaten. Yes, eaten. What we call "rot" or "decay" is actually your corpse being devoured by worms and fungi to recycle your energy back into the food chain. I also happen to sit at the top of the food chain, due to nothing more than my luck at having been born human. As such, I have never seen the slightest moral qualms in an animal being killed for my meal. Death comes to us all, and we're all going to be worm food someday, if not food for something higher up the chain than that.

Besides, I believe in trusting my body. Hasn't let me down yet. I eat when I'm hungry, not when society says it's time. As much as possible to schedule it, I try to sleep only when sleepy, and for as long as my body tells me to. When it says eat meat, I do that, too. I don't waste my time second-guessing 10-million-year-old instincts which are *very* well-honed to the task of convincing stupid apes like us to get proper shelter, rest, and nutrition. The instincts are there to protect and guide me, seems silly to ignore or fight them.

More importantly, vegetarianism has a very high social cost.

This is because the rest of us think they're fucking wacko, and put pressure on them to go back to eating healthy omnivorous diets.

I've tried to understand the reasons for this social cost, even to vegetarians that don't want to make a big deal of their diet.

I have never met one of these. Ever. Any other k5ers care to weigh in on this one? Does the "Unobstrusive Vegan" truly exist, or are they somewhere between the Jabberwock and Snipe in rarity?

Anyway, the short snappy remark I'm sure someone had already used: if Nature didn't intend me to eat cows, why do they taste like meat?


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
not tasty? (2.75 / 8) (#101)
by dimaq on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 06:15:42 AM EST

not being a vegetarian, and having a tad of peer pressure (i.e. a cute vegie p.o.s.) at an unspecified university location where food was prepared by [pro?] staff, I tried the vegetarian option (tno sure if it was dairy-free though), and o my suprise it was way better than meat option.

I reckon the taste and overall quality of the dish depends on the skill of the cook, not on the content of the dish.

as for me I decided that I won't bother learning to cook meat dishes, rather, if I ever bother to learn cooking, I'll learn some nice vegie meals - after all half the populus can cook a good stake or something - I'd rather not be yet another cliche!

cheers

Apposite spelling mistake. (2.44 / 9) (#103)
by signifying nothing on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 06:31:05 AM EST

You describe the choice to be a vegetarian as "ascetic", when you obviously mean "aesthetic". However, I think the "ascetic" reason may be truer - I suspect many people give up meat to obtain a sense of virtue from self-denial.

Delicacies (2.80 / 10) (#104)
by nebbish on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 06:43:15 AM EST

I was vegetarian for a year a while back. I started eating meat again because I was missing out when it came to extra-special treats - oysters, lobster, really good steak or lamb, the list goes on. There is some very good vegetarian food that is much better than most meat you will eat on a day-to-day basis, but very few delicacies. I can only really think of truffles off hand.

---------
Kicking someone in the head is like punching them in the foot - Bruce Lee

Please be fair (1.91 / 12) (#105)
by A Proud American on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 07:13:29 AM EST

I was vegetarian for 3-4 years back in high school, and have now been vegan for about a month.

Please don't think that all veg*ans are stuck-up lunatics.  I'm very sane, can hold a good steady job, am tolerant of others, and look fairly normal.

Your writing about this topic seems to have an unwarranted attitude like Me vs. The World or Me vs. Vegetarians.  I'm not sure what you're so upset about -- perhaps it's because you have not been able to sustain a vegetarian diet for more than 8 years.  I don't know, and it's probably none of my business anyway.

If anything, post this as a diary.  But I don't think this belongs on K5, because at best it's a rant, and at worst it's probably just a troll (and hurtful to good, loving veg*ans like myself).

Thanks for reading this comment.

____________________________
The weak are killed and eaten...


Vegetarians = Plant murderers. (1.50 / 12) (#116)
by Fredrick Doulton on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 01:01:53 PM EST

Vegetarians and vegans are only denying their instincts as human beings. If God had intended us to eat nothing but plants, he wouldn't have given us cows.


Bush/Cheney 2004! - "Because we've still got more people to kill"

changing of mind is interesting (2.16 / 6) (#128)
by originalbigj on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 03:18:36 PM EST

The only fault I can find with this article is that everyone who is uncomfortable with their own diets felt the need to convince themselves that they are okay by writing long comments.

Vegetarian for 18 years (2.78 / 14) (#129)
by bigbtommy on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 03:30:31 PM EST

Solely because I prefer the taste of vegetables, fruits etc. to that of meat and fish. Screw the social / political / religious reasons - I don't eat meat simply because I think it doesn't taste good.
-- bbCity.co.uk - When I see kids, I speed up
some good points, some bad ones (2.41 / 12) (#131)
by Timo Laine on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 04:02:29 PM EST

I skipped the first of the three parts of the book, which deals with animal welfare. Diet, I thought, was too important a matter to change on the basis of such emotional nonsense.
What do you mean by that? How is animal welfare "emotional nonsense"? I understand that there are many people who give vegetarianism a bad name by using stupid arguments, but I don't think you can dismiss the more powerful ethical arguments for vegetarianism. I haven't read the book you mention, but I know there are several good ones available.

Of course you are also insulting a major segment of the world population. You do know that it is a common practice, and indeed a moral ideal, in many parts of the world not to eat meat? Are the people living in these parts of the world somehow backwards, more likely to believe in emotional nonsense?

Personally, I think that if you forget about all the emotional nonsense, it becomes perfectly okay to eat people as well. Emotions are a significant part of being a competent moral agent, which I'm sure you realize.

There's also the job interviews, dates, sales call, and every day social engagements.
Uh, in many cases you can just lie, can't you? They don't force you to eat anything in a job interview at least, I believe. Or you can say that you're dieting, and that's why you're having the dish you're having. Or you can say you just ate or whatever.

It's really a shame because I really liked many parts of the story.

This is a weird article. (2.28 / 7) (#132)
by AnimalChin on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 04:17:23 PM EST

I don't get it. I myself don't eat red meat or fowl, only fish/shellfish and fruit/vegetables. Only one person I know ( who incidentally, is a chef...and not very sharp) has reacted badly to this, and I live in Kentucky. You make it sound like you are roundly ostracized for your choice of diet. Perhaps your diet is not the reason people give you so much shit. At worst, I get a blank look when I tell people, "Sorry, I don't eat beef". Nobody (including me) gets all worked up about it.

It sounds like you're just tired of being different. But to me, it seems like vegetarianism is ridiculously trendy. I don't talk about it often for just that reason.

Have you seen him?

a few comments (2.73 / 19) (#143)
by Estanislao Martínez on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 05:09:59 PM EST

When people say they like the taste of meat, I wonder if they ever eat anything else satisfying. Odds are better than even that their veggies, if something other than potatoes, are always served terminally limp, that their desserts are mostly fat and sugar, and their salad base - if they eat salads - is an uninspiring iceberg lettuce.

So true. I was vegetarian for two years, and I remember that the "vegetarian" foods sold in USian health food stores were as a general rule HORRIBLY TASTELESS. They were also full of cookbooks full of abominable recipes for making insipid versions of European food, substituting all the stuff that made it tasty (i.e. the meat) with tofu. I'll pass.

In the end, I ate almost nothing but Asian and Indian food those two years. Why? Because those cuisines are such that they know how to season and prepare vegetable dishes that are TASTY. Most European cuisine just depends on meat to flavor dishes.

First, I believe that superiority to be relative . Our knowledge of diet is too imperfect to make many final statements about what is best for the human body - and we may soon be able to accurately measure what is best for a specific individual.

Here you're committing a common mistake. There is no way to measure what's the "best" diet, simply because this involves value judgements that differ from person to person, and from one cultural group to another. (This is similar to the problem with "health": no empirical criterion will tell you for all cases which bodily condition is "healthier" that another, because it involves preferences which can't be settled empirically.)

--em

Discussion of Difference Bad? (3.00 / 7) (#164)
by feline on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 11:44:59 PM EST

While there are some militant vegetarians, most don't think they're superior, or even give a damn that you're eating meat, that you enjoy it, or think you could never live without it. Most won't say "moo" when you're having that steak or hamburger. They are not a threat, so why do some people feel the need to justify their choices? Can't we just "eat and let eat"? Most of the comments I heard were stupid, ignorant and boorish. Like telling the only black person at a party that you know some black people and even have some black friends, telling a vegetarian about how you could never give up meat (maybe even thought of it) just isn't kosher. And don't even think of asking about how we get enough protein or iron - another sure way to advertise your own etiquette deficiency. The etiquette is simple: unless the vegetarian is telling you how bad you are for eating meat - or how virtuous they are for not doing so, there's no need to dwell on the topic.

The author suggests in this passage in saying that we should 'eat and let eat' rather than discuss choices, so as to be polite, as it were. But why should people not discuss the differences in choice between themselves? As long as the conversation is civil, why can it not be good?

The author also states that many think that vegetarians are weird. Thus, it benefits society if people actually know about the practices of others within the society.

Anyone that knows anything about people has taken the chance of appearing rude to find out about other people. Given this, and that it's important for members of society to know about those different from themselves, it's practically imperative for vegetarians and meat-eaters to have discussions about their differences.

The appearance of one's politeness does nothing except foster misunderstanding and unpleasantness.

vegetarianism can be a religion of sorts (none / 5) (#168)
by cronian on Mon Oct 13, 2003 at 11:57:45 PM EST

Different people are vegetarian for different reasons. However, vegetarianism can be a sort of religious belief. People feel they are pufifying themselves, and fulfilling some sort of ethical need by not eating meet.

Some even add other reasons. Raising animals is less efficient in terms of land usage since the animals require agricultural feed. Livestock are pumped full of hormones and anti-biotics and can carry diseases like mad cow disease. And yes, getting meet requires killing animals.

Yet, animals like cows can be raised on grassy land where other agriculture wouldn't really grow, and can provide many nutrients to a diet. Plants are sprayed with various pesticides, and really aren't inherently more safe than meat. I think we should take closer look at exactly where our food comes and make sure we aren't sacraficing quality for the current agriculture subsidy regime, but vegetarianism is mainly a faddish cultist to an area that has real problems.

America has a huge a food industry putting out unhealthy crap. Foods are created to last a long time and market well while quality gets last. Why shouldn't that candy be the tastiest dessert. Does Taco Bell or McDonalds really produce the best food? "Health" food doesn't provide anymore quality, but it is just a repackaging of the other food made so it kills you in some less usual way instead of the usual way while it severely lacks in qualtiy. Quality food is healthy and tasty.

We perfect it; Congress kills it; They make it; We Import it; It must be anti-Americanism
You're a big pussy (1.00 / 16) (#171)
by QuantumG on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 12:39:06 AM EST

and this is a diary entry.

Gun fire is the sound of freedom.
Some people hate non-conformists (2.28 / 7) (#174)
by enfilade on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 03:22:45 AM EST

It's a fact of life. Anything that sets you apart, marks you as "different" will be a red flag to certain kinds of people. It's the same reason they hate minorities, gay people, etc.

Here in oz we have a disgusting habit of having "sausage sizzles" at informal, open-air gatherings. Apparently frying a piece of low-quality "meat" and slapping it on a white bun with ketchup and doling out to people in queues is meant to be "social".

I eat white meat, fish and eggs, but never red meat. I've gotten flack for that, so it must be even worse for the true veggos.

BTW, I heard that red meat has a sugar in it that the body can't produce, which is why it gives you cancer.

At last: a 100% visually accurate reenactment! (2.33 / 15) (#188)
by K5 ASCII reenactment players on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 05:54:58 AM EST

Oh yeah?  Well, I'm 
deceptively healthy.
       /
     O
    <|>
     |
    / \


-1, -1, -1, oh god, I wish there was a -2. (1.04 / 22) (#190)
by Motekye on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 06:01:09 AM EST

Meat is fucking delicious, hence the term "deli" — delis serve meat, dumbass.

Kris Gallant ( left ), is a Vegan, but look how fucking fat he is!

Now, if you want to lose weight, go on the Atkins diet, the thing is almost completely meat.

You are the most misconceived yuppie-assed block of fodder I have ever been fortunate enough to find! You've made my fucking day! Now I'm going to track you down and grill you on my Foreman.


Grrr....
Culinary differences (2.88 / 9) (#193)
by gyan on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 06:28:16 AM EST

while the diets of vegans and vegetarians often lacks beauty

 In Western cuisine perhaps. In the vast and myraid Indian cuisine (mostly vegetarian), that's not a problem at all.

********************************

so if you ever ask (1.66 / 6) (#198)
by auraslip on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 08:33:29 AM EST

A human can be healthy without killing animals for food. Therefore if
he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake
of his appetite. -- Leo Tolstoy

Flesh eating is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of
an act which is contrary to moral feeling: killing. By killing, man
suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity,
that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself and by
violating his own feelings becomes cruel. -- Leo Tolstoy

___-___

Not all... (2.33 / 6) (#211)
by PigleT on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 09:24:43 AM EST

"all our major religions impose rules or conventions about food."

No they don't - Christianity doesn't say anything about whether you should arbitrarily discriminate between fish or mammals or whatever. More to the point, it says "God made it, so *don't* go around calling it `unclean'".  This is distinctive; Judaism and Islam fall down on one particular side of the discriminatory coin; Christianity sees the whole coin at once.

"before finishing the book, I had sworn off meat and started to learn about such exotic foods as tofu and quinoa"

Erm, right. I'm *hoping* that's meant to be sarcastic, 'cos y'all know what tofu is really like.

"Most won't say "moo" when you're having that steak or hamburger."

I wouldn't care whether someone mooed at me for tucking into a decent steak. In fact, I'd be 99% likely to moo right back. I suspect this is because eating meat is the societal norm, so it's hardly as though I'm likely to perceive being mooed at as any realistic "attack" on my character for being hard on the wee darling lambs.

It's vegetarians who get off on some kind of intellectually-dishonest reason, or have only arbitrary dislike of meat, that really piss me off. I'll accept some kind of bizarre ailment as a valid reason; anything else stands a large chance of merely being a trendy fad.

~Tim -- We stood in the moonlight and the river flowed

thats the same reason I'm not gay (1.12 / 8) (#214)
by auraslip on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 09:32:29 AM EST


___-___
Mmmm fish. Mmmm food! (2.71 / 7) (#231)
by Anonymous Hiro on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 10:08:24 AM EST

Fish is good for you. There are plenty of decent scientific studies showing the benefits of eating fish. Seems almost like humans are "designed" to have fish as a significant part of their diets.

It's really up to each person where he/she wants to draw the line.

I usually draw the line at eating an animal whilst it's alive or torturing an animal, but I must admit fresh raw oysters taste pretty good.

I also won't eat humans and don't recommend it- whatever diseases and parasites the human had, you (if you're human) can get, so eating your own kind is usually not a good idea.

Lots of westerners I've encountered don't seem to fully comprehend what they are eating, or are in a sort of denial. They lose their appetite if a chicken or fish is served still looking like a chicken or fish (e.g. head still on etc).

Yes, a real living animal suffered and died so that you could eat and live. If you can't accept that, then you better be a vegetarian instead of denying what you are consuming.

I'm thankful I've got food to eat, and have access to a wide variety where I live. All the various cuisines, mmmm - Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, French, German, Hungarian, Russian, Swiss, Belgian, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Thai, Vietnamese, Nyonya, Malay, Middle Eastern, African, Mexican, Brit, US etc..

Many of these are the results of centuries or even millenia of people making the best of what they had. And the best they've got? Mmmmmm! You'd really be missing out if you limit yourself to just plants or just animals.

Some plants even eat animals too!

Social stigma (none / 5) (#240)
by Mr.Surly on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 11:10:40 AM EST

I find it odd that your dietary choice is so socially stigmatizing. Perhaps it's that way in Canada, but here in California (I know, I know), if someone says "I'm vegetarian," the likely reaction would be "Oh, didn't know that. Anyway ..."

I'm seriously asking: Are you surrounded by rednecks?

Holy Groupthink Batman... (2.37 / 8) (#244)
by Run4YourLives on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 11:37:39 AM EST

So not following the crowd irks those that do. Surprise Surpirse.

What I find disturbing though, is that you're going to disregard your personal ethics because not being popular is too much for you to handle. We have a word for people like you: cowards.

The last thing this world needs is another mindless suv driving-suburban living-gap wearing buffoon.

Thank god some people actually have a backbone.

It's slightly Japanese, but without all of that fanatical devotion to the workplace. - CheeseburgerBrown

all figured out..... (2.00 / 6) (#245)
by tkarches on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 11:42:35 AM EST

I'm impressed with all the smart people here that have all vegetarians figured out :-) Excuse the ramble... Until about a month ago, I was vegetarian for about 8 years. I now occasionally eat meat if I find it appetizing. I don't eat it for the sake of eating it. My wife has started eating fish as she has developed an intolerance for soy. My reasons? I started to feel like I was being vegetarian for the sake of being vegetarian. I may go back. I think that most meat is not healthy to eat, with all the hormones and drugs used during production. I have found that the best way to deal with being a vegetarian socially is not to make a big deal about it. For me it was a personal choice; I wasn't on a crusade. If someone asked me why, I told them. It also is a good way of finding out who your friends really are. Your true friends won't give you grief about it. As for "Vegetarianism has a high social cost" and the "negative attention" what's their problem anyway? it's not like you were trying to convert them. Sounds like a good way of weeding out the "stupid" people from your circle of acquaintences. My wife and kids rarely eat meat. I have no problem with them eating it; we just don't prepare meat for meals at home in general. I don't prevent them from eating meat because I want them to make their own informed decisions. We also don't call cow meat "beef" or pig meat "pork" or chicken meat "poultry". Call it what it is.

It's dead simple (2.53 / 15) (#247)
by Roamerick on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 11:54:28 AM EST

At the risk or sounding simplistic I think these multiple pages of rants, including the original story, can be summarised as follows:

A) Some people eat meat.
B) Some people don't.
C) Some people are stupid enough to try and justify their choice of A or B (especially B) with ethical/theological/scientific BS.

Fact is we CAN eat meat, and it is NOT bad for us in reasonable quantities and as part of a balanced diet. Whether you want to eat it or not is your choice.

Everything else is bullshit.

Ramakrishna on vegetarianism (1.00 / 9) (#249)
by urbanSadhu on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 11:58:06 AM EST

"The eating of meat is certainly impure. Vegetarian food is definitely pure. Whose goal is  directed only towards Dharma, they will do well with vegetarian food. And those who are working for advancement in this world, it is true that meat can be of benefit to them. It is also true that pure food gives rise to pure thoughts. If one wants to become a devotee,  then meat should be renounced. This is because it makes excitement. And then its nature is impure. It is not proper for us to take another life for our personal enjoyment. Just as long as warrior energy remains foremost in man, for so long meat will remain a  regular food commodity. By eating animals man gets an animalistic nature, and thus brings about the destruction of the race. When a man acts without selfishness, then lust and greed are completely without energy, and  one renounces self-conceit. Without knowledge of ego, Sattwa guna is expressed. These are the signs that an individual has no desire for consuming meat."

Real men stand up for themselves (2.75 / 20) (#256)
by dgswensen on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 01:18:41 PM EST

So, in summary, "I decided to be a vegetarian, but am going to stop because of peer pressure." That would be more understandable if you were an insecure teenager desperate to find their own self-identity or something, but you're an adult, and should know better. If you believe in this as passionately as you seem to want to, it should take more than a little negative attention to change your mind about this.

Real men eat steaks? "Real men" are defined by having the balls and the backbone to stand up for what they believe in.

And unless you are living on a cattle ranch, I seriously think you are either calling more attention to your vegetarianism than you are letting on in this article, or you are exaggerating the amount of negative attention you are actually getting, either internally or externally. And if not, then perhaps you should consider moving in more progressive circles, i.e. people who aren't living in the backwoods of 1950.

You seem to be going for the martyr angle in this writeup (I, the poor dietary exile, realize that our culture is irrational when it comes to food, but alas can no longer fight the good fight), but what I'm getting from it is, you like being a vegetarian but are giving it up to gain the acceptance and approval of people whose opinions and personal taste you obviously have a great deal of contempt for. I'm sorry, but that's crap.

Your reasons for becoming a vegetarian, and staying a vegetarian, are well-reasoned and admirable. Your reasons for quitting are not. I would encourage you to stick by your ideals and your eating habits, and don't let the majority wear you down into conformity.  

I'm dissapointed (1.69 / 13) (#257)
by crazycanuck on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 01:19:04 PM EST

I thought you gave up on vegetarianism because you realised what a stupid choice it is, but instead you're doing it for peer pressure...

religiousness of vegetarianism (2.75 / 8) (#286)
by loudici on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 05:28:11 PM EST

i understand many of the reasons why you would think that eating meat is not a good idea and avoid doing it. the thing that i find puzzling is how vegetarian turn their choice into a religious taboo. not buying meat because you do not want to support mass agriculture is a respectable choice. leaving the meatballs on the side of your plate because you think they are unhealthy is probably a good idea. on the other hand, if i cook a stew with some pieces of meat and you refuse to eat it because the potatoes have cooked in the same pot has the meat, you have crossed the line out of rationality. i was buying and cooking that meat anyway so you are not supporting the meat industry, and if you leave the meat aside the quantity of meat you are absorbing is not significant for your diet. you have created yourself a religious taboo. without a religion.
gnothi seauton
Reasons for not eating meat (2.44 / 9) (#303)
by beavan on Tue Oct 14, 2003 at 08:31:00 PM EST

I don't think health is the issue here - a person can be as healthy as the next carnivore and vise versa if he has a balanced healthy diet. Nor does taste have anything to do with it. It's just that nowdays, we don't really need to kill animals to survive. It's primitive, as simple as that. People will look at us in the future and will compare us to the romans that used to throw people to the lions for the pleasure of the viewers. So what if every once in a while some morron asks you a stupid question? I find it to be a very simple and effective idiot filter. I really liked meat, but it gives me no right to murder animals for my pleasure. I also want to have money but I don't go around shooting people to take their money, do I? This is what I realized six years ago.

I love burekas in the morning
I no longer wear white socks with black shoes. (2.00 / 11) (#310)
by wrinkledshirt on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 12:41:33 AM EST

I used to wear white socks with black shoes. I did it because of the fact that (a) black shoes are much more socially acceptable than sneakers, and (b) white socks are superior when it comes to fit and comfort. But now, after all the abuse I've had to put up with feet snobs who say that you can't wear the two together, I've decided that I'm going to change my ways. Not because it's right, mind you, but just because you have to get along in this world.

[insert long-winded rant about public insensitivity towards people with my plight]

What do you think? +1 FP material?

Respect (none / 4) (#311)
by R0O on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 12:51:19 AM EST

I was a lactos vegeterian for 2 years. When people asked, and they did, they accepted my answer or they did not. I don't waste my time spending it with people who have nothing better to do than try to make me feel stupid for my decisions. Roo

So much people you didn't see. (none / 3) (#327)
by tchize on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 07:30:52 AM EST

 

First, sorry for my bad english.

 You are speaking of all people around you, looking at you like and extra terrestrial because of your choice. And you change your choice because of them.

 The problem is that it's a choice which brings discussion to people (like tatoos or others ones visible ones). And you can't do without noticing people discussing about it in front of you (quite natural to notice them).

 But did you notice the people who simply didn't say anything about it? Not people who said 'nice choice, i agree with you' but people who simply didn't care, leave this choice as your's.

 There are people who simply don't discuss about it, not because they don't want to hurt, or because it's not socialy acceptable to do it in public but simply because they consider this fact as simply there, not changing a human nature.


Wow, so you've a social coward? (1.85 / 7) (#328)
by codemonkey_uk on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 07:34:01 AM EST

What's what your saying, right? A couple of hundred words to try to justify what boiled down to you not having the courage of your convictions. Caving in to social pressure. What a sad little excuse for a man you are. I hope you choke on your steak. I hope it makes you sick.
---
Thad
"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." - Bertrand Russell
The etiquette is simple: (1.50 / 6) (#332)
by devon on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 08:28:31 AM EST

Unless someone asks why you're giving up vegetarianism, assume they don't care and keep it to yourself.

--
Call yourself a computer professional? Congratulations. You are responsible for the imminent collapse of civilization.
Vegetarian for 21 years (1.50 / 6) (#334)
by dzimmerm on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 08:33:41 AM EST

I am technically an ovo lacto vegetarian. That means I eat dairy products and eggs as well as various plant materials.

The reason I stopped eating meat was I thought it was hypocritical to be willing to let others kill animals for me when I personally could not kill them unless I was starving.

I consider myself an ethical vegetarian. I will eat animals if I have to but I would have to be so hungry that I would be willing to gladly kill an animal for food.

I will also add that I do not give two hoots and a holler about the animals welfare. I am worried about the effect of killing animals on me. I know I am just about a millimeter shy of being a cold blooded killer. I think if we all look inside some would realize that they could easily take another humans life. I think killing animals can lead to making the killing of humans easier. I want to keep that millimeter of distance inside myself so I can choose not to kill today, and the next day, and the next day after that.

Not eating meat is my way of keeping my sociopathic tendancies in check. I also do not care if you eat meat. I don't even care if you give me a hard time about eating meat. If you could look inside my thoughts you would probably be glad I don't eat meat as you would not sleep well if you saw me suddenly start eating it.

I do not know how many are in my situation. I doubt if most would admit to having this mindset if asked.

The only thing that really worries me is, if I do kill a human, would that mean I would have to eat them? I hear that we taste pretty bad unless properly cured or smoked. If I am lucky that situation will never arise.

dzimmerm

Amazing. (none / 3) (#352)
by scarabic on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 05:43:17 PM EST

I can hardly believe that someone who quits over such flimsy logic as "hunting and gathering has less impact" even lasted 8 years in the first place. Even your own essay is more about your reasons for being vegetarian than your reasons for quitting. So you're finally giving in to the mainstreamers' pressure, and rationalizing with "well, we don't really know for sure." Good for you. Take a stand, dude.

My two cents..... (2.00 / 4) (#369)
by KnightFilm on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 07:15:20 PM EST

It's always surprising to me the way even those items indicted as mere "survival" necessities can become socio-political-ethnic-cultural debates once we have gotten past the pressing need for living past the next 24 hours or so. Having been a vegetarian for the last 6 years or so, I've gone through the Thanksgivings where I appeased my folks, and the party conversations over why everyone else in the room could never give up meat. I've certainly thought of going back to eating meat plenty of times, and someday I probably will. But I can honestly say that I'm better for the experience and I think those around me are as well. I'm not out to prosletize the wonders of tofu or convert the hog-loving heathens. I'm living my life and leading by example. I'm doing my part for the environment in a way that works for me. If food is a religion, then everyone has to come to God/Allah/Jehovah/Buddha in their own time and route. For danharan, the detriments both to his diet and his cause outway his desire to abstain. But I guarantee he will eat far less meat than he would be eating now, had he not spent the last 8 years exploring all the other tastes and textures meat eaters so often miss. And he will lead by example, giving those around him an option to choose another way, a first step on a road less traveled. And that will make all the difference for him, for us and for the world around us. Good luck!

Awwww, GARBAGE (1.12 / 8) (#380)
by levsen on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 10:30:02 PM EST

This article is written the way only a vegetarian would write. Note that it's not about facts. His "reasons" for being a vegetarian in the first place are vaguely described as "having them read somewhere in a book", duh. Sure that makes the situation clear. And the reason for giving up is partly because "our knowledge of diet is too imperfect". Can you please stick to the facts? Hint: "Facts" do not include "people" and "opinions", they inlcude *things* such as nature, animals, molecules, biology, metabolism, etc.
This comment is printed on 100% recycled electrons.
Why Shouldn't I Speak? (none / 4) (#385)
by Robert Uhl on Wed Oct 15, 2003 at 11:26:52 PM EST

The etiquette is simple: unless the vegetarian is telling you how bad you are for eating meat—or how virtuous they are for not doing so, there's no need to dwell on the topic.

Why not? I happen to believe that, unless undertaken for the right reasons, vegetarianism is a moral wrong. Why should I speak about than any more than I would for any other topic I feel strongly about?

Undertaken for the proper reasons, vegetarianism is good. But almost everyone I’ve met who is a vegetarian did it not for the right but for the wrong.

There’s naught wrong with eating meat: God permitted it after the Flood, and it’s almost certain that the Trinity ate meat while visiting Abraham and that Christ ate meat while on the earth. It’s no doubt better to abstain from eating meat; this is why monastics do so. Beasts eat one another; if we’re naught but beasts, why not do the same? If we’re above the animals, why not eat them as they do plants, which they are above?

Plus, steaks are just so good

Of course, the modern American diet has too much meat in it, due to ag subsidies. Someday we’ll get rid of those, the prices of various foods will stabilise and life will be good.

Been veggie for a while now (none / 1) (#394)
by daragh on Thu Oct 16, 2003 at 08:41:59 AM EST

And on the whole, reaction is supportive. My mother even cooks seperate dishes for me when I come home, and my dad used to be a steak chef, and has never even mentioned it. Friends sometimes give me the odd ribbing (ha ha) but apart from that no-one cares.

You should stick to your guns, giving up for social reasons is cowardly.

No work.

Why does it matter? (none / 1) (#402)
by wabisabi on Thu Oct 16, 2003 at 01:47:31 PM EST

The meat industry is politicaly, socialy, ecologicaly corrupt. Ranching is a mess; meat lots are horrible places; and slaughterhouses are like something from the dark ages. If you want to eat meat, that's your deal, but do the planet and your health a big huge favor and eat locally grown, organic meat. And stay away from Fish - we're strip mining the ocean at a disastrous rate. Eating your beliefs is a pain in the ass, but if you can't do that much, then what's the point of having beliefs?

i have (none / 1) (#406)
by hapbt on Thu Oct 16, 2003 at 04:17:36 PM EST

a sausage for you

yeesh (none / 0) (#407)
by tunesmith on Thu Oct 16, 2003 at 04:46:31 PM EST

Man, I wonder where this person lives. Sounds like there's a really high ratio of jerks per square mile there. Either that or he's imagining things. I've been veggie for eight years or so and I'm never given any crap about it when I'm eating with people. The most I get is, "oh, you're a veggie? I could never do that, I need my steak!" Smile, laugh, move on. If you're worried about job interviews, just order a pasta dish with white sauce. And what kind of lousy family is it that expects you to eat meat with them if you're a vegetarian?
Yes, I have a blog.
From Vegetarian to Vegetarian (mostly) (none / 0) (#409)
by artsygeek on Thu Oct 16, 2003 at 05:58:45 PM EST

I, for the most part, just don't like meat.  Some meats give me headaches due to preservatives.  That's why I was a vegetarian for most of my life.  Then I decided to add meat.  But, I don't eat most meats...I just eat a few.  I do eat lamb and chicken, but not beef or pork (except for the occasional slice of bacon, but I also try to stay away from pork, culturally because of the folks I associate with, but I digress).  I despise turkey, but it's okay at Thanksgiving, because I like to eat potatoes and beans and bread...and frankly, that's good enough for me.

My philosophy has historically been, I just don't like most meats, and that's the way it is, it's not ideology...to quote Flanders and Swann "It's simply a case of chacun a son gout"

Two points (none / 1) (#418)
by arcade on Fri Oct 17, 2003 at 02:47:26 AM EST

After 8 years of dietary exile, one thing is clear: not only is our diet bad for our health, our environment or the animals, and it isn't even very tasty. When people say they like the taste of meat, I wonder if they ever eat anything else satisfying.

I disagree. In my book - and to my knowledge (I'm sure some militant veggie will have the fits and throw a lots of references at me for this) meat has lots of protein, makes you stronger and makes your body more fit.

Furthermore, there is nothing as satisfying (in my opionion) as digging my teeth into a rare steak. Not only the taste, but the entire experience. It's.. just great. :-) Lots of thing _taste_ better, but is not nearly as satisfying.

But refusing food from someone who cooked it surely is horrible karma.

Indeed. Oh, he doesn't eat what I serve? Well then, I'll refrain from inviting that guy then - bloody picky bastard.

When visiting people one eats what is served - unless one has an allergy or something - in which case it's of course okay to say no thanks.

--
arcade

Yep. (none / 1) (#453)
by Icehouseman on Sat Oct 18, 2003 at 02:49:12 PM EST

I'm a meatarian. I try to have meat at every meal and avoid eating veggies. I really like plants and find them much more interesting and beautiful than a bunch of stupid cows and pigs.
----------------
Bush's $3 trillion state is allegedly a mark of "anti-government bias" on the right. -- Anthony Gregory
hunting and gathering impact... (none / 2) (#455)
by splitpeasoup on Sat Oct 18, 2003 at 10:13:38 PM EST

You said: "hunting and gathering has less impact than a vegan diet."

How is that relevant? Most meat-eaters are not hunter-gatherers. Needless to say, the breeding of animals for the meat industry has a far larger environmental/ecological impact than vegetarian agriculture.

-SPS

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

Why vegies. (none / 2) (#459)
by Rainy on Sun Oct 19, 2003 at 07:09:12 PM EST

The most important thing about eating meat or not is having a habit for eating richly salted meat or not. If you eat that regularly (as well as other salty foods), all other, non-salty food will taste bland. If you get off these 'in your face' food for a period of time, non-salty food becames as tasty as meat-based food, and then you'll never be able to take part in heated arguments pro or vs, because there won't be much difference to you. Both options will be equally acceptable, as far as taste is concerned.

I eat vegetables for the last 2 years. I do this for mixed reasons.

Hodge-podge or reasons

Meat takes long for me to digest. I like the feeling of lightness and alertness when all food is digested. I come from work at about 5:40, if I ate right away, I'd be heavy and my mood would be lower until sleep. If I ate later on, I'd not get a good night's sleep. Meat does not taste good to me unless it's quite salty. I find salt has an unpleasant effect on me, too - it's a little like caffeine jitters. If I eat 5 (yes, only 5) good-sized potato chips on an empty stomack, they'll have enough salt to make me queasy. Meat of high quality is expensive. I don't make much money, and this is somewhat important for me. I've heard cattle is fed antibiotics and hormones. Grass-fed 'natural' cattle is more expensive yet and has to be ordered by mail, or so I hear. Again, this is impractical to me. I'm peaceful by nature and I'd rather not kill anyone. I never had to, and though I think I may kill an animal or a human (not much difference, imho), if pressed, I'd quite simply rather not do it. On top of that, if I *do* kill someone, I'd do it myself. I'll take a knife and cut the throat, get my hands all bloody and sticky, drink the warm blood first and then cook the meat - this just feels more honest than hiring someone to kill for you. If it's a human, I'll only do that if he attacked me and I had no other recourse, and I need his body for food. If it's an animal, I'll do that if I'm starving but it's not necessary that he attacks me first. In a shipwreck scenario, I hope I won't let hunger get the best of me and make me a cannibal, but of course you never know until you're right there on golden beach, by azure waves, under romantic palmtrees, 2 weeks passed since your last potato-and-broccoli and a cup of hand-rolled georgian tea. As far as taste goes, I find that a well-done meat dish is very tasty, but (sorry), I find a well-done vegie dish tastier yet. One thing about meat, though, of a somewhat redeeming nature, is that you can have a salty piece of meat in a fridge with something on the side, and you can re-heat it and it will taste half decent and filling. A nice dish of freshly prepared vegies will be *much* better, BUT it will take some time to prepare, and sometimes you're hungry *and* tired. On the other hand, I find vegies unpalatable when reheated, or cold for that matter. So, the meat totally has the instant gratification appeal. If I always had some meat at my place, it could be much harder for me to keep up with vegetarianism. In two years I ate meat 5 or 6 times, never more than half or a third of a portion. It's tasty and filling but so are some vegie dishes.

yoga

Another reason is that I practice yoga and it recommends to avoid meat. In one of his books, Swami Sivananda says "one who eats meat can become a warrior or a scientist, but rarely a yogi".

In yoga, there is no vegie/meat diet division. There are three kinds of food, instead: sattvic, rajasic and tamasic. The first one, sattvic, is the one that's good for yoga practice: vegies, fruits, grains, milk, nuts. Sattvic food makes your mind calm, dispassionate and concentrated - qualities necessary for yoga practice. Rajasic group is meat, onions, garlic, all sour, hot, pungent dishes, salt, pickles, etc. This group makes you agitated and excites passion. Tamasic food makes you heavy and inactive; eggs and some meats (I don't remember what else) belong to this group.

Sivananda says that onions and garlic are worse than meat. Yogi Bhajan, though (of Kundalini yoga school), recommends using some Rajasic foods, and in particular onions and garlic. Sivananda allows black and red pepper on grounds that they assist digestion. (I think).

Anyway, the core of yogic approach to diet is that one should eat to live, not live to eat. Food is fuel, it allows me to live, experience, move, work, love, and so forth. I am not to focus on the sensuous pleasure of food. Light, simple food is sattvic. Another aspect is that one should not be dependent on one particular food - if there's rice I'll eat rice. If there's potatoes I'll eat them. If only meat is available, I'll take that, not giving much thought to it. Refusing a meal because it is not sattvic is bad karma. The idea is not that eating this or that is bad, but having a dependency and drug-like attachment to a particular taste. This isn't entirely true, though, because meat diet will have effect on your body even if you don't have mental attachment; but the essential idea here is that if there's no attachment, you will tend to pick the 'right' food and eat the right amount, not more than you need or less than you need.

No convincing proof

I have no mathematical proof that sattvic food is better or healthier. I find that it is, for my own body, and I suspect that it is for most if not all other people, but I'll never try to convince anyone who is attached to the taste of meat or onions, for example, because there can be no proof obvious enough in this case to override that attachment. If there is no attachment, or someone finds this food taxing, he can try it and may convince himself, or not; but as for me, I'll never be able to do that and I will never waste my time trying.

I think a lot of vegetarians perhaps do it to feel superior. But that may be said of any other endeavor. A scientist may have become such to feel intellectually superior. Ditto for a programmer. A businessman may have chosen that path to be materially superior to someone. I guess to avoid this accusation you have to be very careful to stay very average. What, you're watching a movie that did not do well in theaters? What the hell, you think you're so tasteful and we're all dumbasses?

When I used to eat meat, my attitude was generally that, yeah, maybe I shouldn't, but nothing else tastes good. Or it does, but is not filling. If I had known a vegetarian, I may have felt that nobody can put up with that only because of highly abstract idea of some animals suffering somewhere who'll be killed off anyway, and so the only 'real' reason must be that he gets off feeling superior to the rest of us. The fallacy here would be that vegie diet taste is in any way inferior to meat based diet. But, as I said above, if you're accustomed to the taste of salty meat, this is true to a large degree. So, instead of a whole life of tasteless, unsatisfying food you really only have to endure maybe a week or two. For me the benefits were good enough - I'd do it even if it took a year.

vegie dishes

My typical meal is romaine-based salad, some cooked grains with butter and vegies on top. I often drink milk and eat fruits.

My salad will always have some romaine in it, because it has the most amazing aftertaste, that kicks in after you eat half the salad bowl. It's the tastiest flavor I ever met, by far. It's amazing. I could add spinach or celery, cabbage and other stuff.

The 'filling' food is mostly potatoes, rice, pasta, buckwheat, always with generous chunk of butter (very important! taste improves by tenfold), and lightly boiled asparagus, or broccoli, cauliflower, or maybe stringbeans.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day

what social cost, and foot pyramid (none / 0) (#479)
by dh003i on Tue Oct 21, 2003 at 05:26:56 PM EST

Firstly, what social cost to being a vegetarian? Last time I checked, most people weren't up and in arms about those who dared not to eat meat.

Second, there's nothing wrong with eating meat in moderation. In fact, meats are a recommended part of the food pyramid, although what they provide (namely protein and fats) can be replaced in a vegetarian diet.

Social Security is a pyramid scam.

"Why I'm giving up libertarianism" (none / 3) (#482)
by dh003i on Tue Oct 21, 2003 at 05:46:17 PM EST

Well, after a discussion with someone, I thought about the nature of the State, and the nature of individual men and freedom, and decided that the best political system would be libertarianism (anarcho-capitalism/agorism). There are many reasons why I believe this, which I've talked about in my diary and elsewhere, but sufficed to say, I thoroughly and completely believe in it.

However, I better give up believing in libertarianism, because, well, most people don't agree with me. I mean, most people don't even know what a libertarian is. Not only that, but they dismiss it out of hand. And some people look at you strange. When I walk down the street, I feel all these people eying me as the wierd anti-State anarcho-capitalist.

Thus, I better give up my belief. I mean, convenience is more important, right? Come to think of it, I better give up thinking altogether, because if I think, eventually I will reach conclusions and beliefs that other's will disagree with me on, and perhaps ridicule me for.
...
My point isn't that you should or should not be a vegetarian. My point is that if you really believe in something, you shouldn't let what "other people think" per se bother you. Most of the successful people in this world are successful because they ignored "what they said". Henry Ford, for example.

Social Security is a pyramid scam.

Don't be so quick to criticize this guy (none / 2) (#489)
by Squidbait on Wed Oct 22, 2003 at 02:28:16 PM EST

First of all, a lot of people accuse this guy of being cowardly, abandoning his beliefs, etc. Read the article folks, he did it primarily for diet reasons ie to benefit himself personally, not for moral reasons or to save animals. If he feels the social costs outweigh the benifits, he is not abandoning his principles by going back to meat, he is intelligently maximizing his own welfare, which was the point of giving up meat in the first place.

Second, maybe some of you don't think there is a social cost to being vegetarian, but I think that really depends on your social situation. If all of your friends are hippy vegans, sure nobody is going to attack you. I know that when I went vegan, many of my friends went ballistic, with such supportive comments as "what a fucking idiot" etc. A few times I seriously had to sit and defend myself against vicious attacks of this nature from three or four people at a time. (thankfully, most of these people I no longer associate with). Whenever it comes up in conversation, and it inevitably does if you go out for meals etc, you have to watch for the guy that will attack you like this. It happens a lot more often than non-vegetarians probably realize, but again it depends on who you hang around with. And don't try to feed me the "then find new friends" arguments, get realistic. Friendships aren't perfect, you take the good with the bad, as long as one outweighs the other; plus finding a whole new set of friends is not easy or fun. Friends aside, you can still face this sort of criticism from people you meet day to day who aren't necessarily your friends, and who are also less inhibited about mocking you.

The point is that there is a real social cost, and if you have strong beliefs then you will bear the cost, but in this guy's case it wasn't a moral issue, so he did what was best for himself. You should always be willing to reevaluate your beliefs and decisions based on your current situation or changes of opinion. The real idiot is the guy who clings to his beliefs when they are no longer appropriate or rational. I originally went vegan for moral reasons, but I have since reevaluated those reasons and now eat meat. Of course, I'm sure my critics just think I caved either due to social pressure or not being able to live without meat (despite the fact that I did just fine for a year or so). It's often just as hard to give up your position if your beliefs change than to stubbornly cling to them, given all the effort you put into defending them in the first place.



You mine as well (none / 0) (#490)
by CoolName on Sun Oct 26, 2003 at 01:07:21 PM EST

You had no good reason whatsoever to adopt vegetarianism. Or at least this article would indicate the such. And vegetarianism is a hassle.

"What does your conscience say? -- 'You shall become the person you are.'" Friedrich Nietzsche


reasons (none / 0) (#491)
by doneflipin on Tue Oct 28, 2003 at 09:09:49 AM EST

The environment, health, ethics etc. were not the concerns of the first vegetarians (i.e. those that can afford meat but chose not to), I chose to be vegetarian when I was five (I don't remember why), I seriously doubt if my health or the environment ever came across my mind back then. All I remember is finding out what meat is (part of a once cow or once pig etc.). perhaps one forgets that the most important thing about vegetarianism- that is that it's not just a dietary rule, but a principle. One is not defined by what one eat... I thought it weird that society should come into the author's decision to eat meat again. How does the society at large matter at all as far as one's own principles are concerned? to abstain from meat is a conscious choice. sure one should be free to choose one's diet hence to eat meat if one would like, but how free can we be if societal pressure/ cultural conventions/ inconveniences, are enough for us to abandon our principles. It's not the culture that needs to change as the author puts it, it's each of us that needs to change, to understand our own principles and live it, understand what we eat and be aware of it, people's acceptance is always out of one's control in the short term, if one in principle believes in the environmental/ health advantages of vegetarianism, one should live it principally - but if one sees it as work and a grounding habit turning one into a more or less social retard- one may as well never be vegetarian in the first place. I'm sure what makes a man a real man isn't `beef' but adherence to principles. The most important thing of the principle of being vegetarian is the fact that it is an exercise of empathy. The environmental impact and one personal health are merely good side-effects of being vegetarian, it'll doubtless come to nonsense with time - because how can we ever know if there is if at all any damage to our health if we eat excessive meat? - many people live long healthy lives that eat mountains of meat in their lives. The reason the author starts to eat meat again is because it's hard to see the point when of abstinence when a lean leg of lamb is nutritious, tasty. So too may pork and beef be (if not in excess). There's no point to the author's post because there's no understanding of what it has meant to have a vegetarian diet. The whole thing is a generalization of his own personal experience of being a vegetarian, with respect to his world. Shallow. Fact is, there's no reason to be vegetarian except to understand our natural empathy, it for the same reason we find the way some willows seem to weep, it is for the same reason that stars in the sky reminds some of the dead heroes, it's for the same reason that we can feel sorrow and pain when someone else gets run over by a car and moans in a pool of blood with mangled hands as they cut of her arm. I don't think it's just about animal rights, but the fact that one cares enough of suffering to abstain from possible pain upon another creature. Fact is if we could empathize with a lamb on a conveyer belt to the slaughter house, we wouldn't be one to wage war, if we could empathise with a cow's agony as a bolt meaning to pierce between its eyes missed and left her spouting blood and mooing in pain as she slowly drowns in deflating lungs - We would not wish ever to torture any human beings. Atrocities like My Lai in Vietnam would we would never in a million year participate in, nor would we be a part of the whole gas chamber scheme, for if one could empathise with a cow one has never met, one could empathise million fold more, when one faces a person that one is in a position or is pressured to hurt/ to maim/ to torture. It can't even be proved that an animal is aware at all of anything - but anyone who's ever tried to kill something slowly (I've killed a spider once, slowly, tearing off its legs one at a time) one would know that it feels it, it feels the pain, it struggles to stay alive, one can feel almost (one thinks) exactly what it's going through. I know I'll never do it again, because I would not personally like my limbs to be torn off one at a time - and that's the foundation of most common ethics - no matter one is religious or not to - `do to others what you would have them do onto you', or as Confucius would have it `don't do to others what you wouldn't want done onto you'. It's a practical application of that particular ethics in our every day life - if one abstain from meat. It is not superior to be vegetarian, there's no such thing as superior person. People who don't eat meat should understand why they don't, because if one is really objective - meat `does' taste good, meat `is' absolutely nutritious, it is also an art to cook meat well. And meat cooked well `is' bliss. And people who eat a lot of meat `can' live long and healthy lives. The question is if or not, one is empathetic to life per se - that was the reason the people first became vegetarians, and that is the only reason that is objectively viable.

Thanks (none / 0) (#492)
by Captain Queegs Diaphragm on Tue Nov 04, 2003 at 01:38:14 AM EST

...for the article, sir. You make some observant points.

Hunter-gatherers: You note that these eaters likely do less harm to the environment than do vegans. I might add, the meat which they eat would seem to have more flavor, variety, 'aesthetic appeal' (not: 'ascetic').

I might well note, I've not experimented with vegetarianism or any other special diet, in a sustained manner.

To comment still: I reckon, giving up meat makes sense as a means of re-ordering one's passions to the end that they become more subject to right reason. Asceticism (thus), perhaps, is the idea here. Like a monk who practices regular abstinences, and chastity and voluntary poverty, the vegetarian, too, might, by the effects of his decision, free his appetite from the dictates of societal norms: for an example norm, that gobs of cheese and sugar must accompany a main course centered on a slab of meat. Thus freed, he may, with prudence, reorient his appetite towards more estimable norms yet ones which, by their very nature of being distinct from conventional, societal norms, may only be sensibly considered after he has retrenched into the initial abstinence (from meat).

To continue: But, the abstinence need not be the end; I'd argue it ought not to be the end of the vegetarian choice. Now seeing more clearly that contemporary American understanding of food is not right, the vegetarian might recognize that he admires the relationship of the Eskimo to his food: seal meat and all.

* * *

Ah, that's enough. Thanks again.

--
"God damn thee and the Guelph party with your distrustful malice!" ~ Guido

Militants. (none / 0) (#493)
by grendelkhan on Wed Nov 05, 2003 at 02:50:01 PM EST

I've seen actual militant vegetarians/vegans. The kind who don't eat honey because you're raping/exploiting the bees to get it. (I swear, I'm not making this stuff up. I can't make this stuff up.)

Having had the educational experience of visiting Oberlin College, something of a hotbed of lefties, I learned that a co-op prohibits the presence of meat within its doors. I asked the following questions:

People are made of meat; why are they allowed in? If this only means no dead meat, does that mean you're breaking the rules if you die there? If humans don't count, are you breaking the rules if your pet bunny dies there? What if your pet bunny dies by falling onto a barbecue grille, and in its death throes marinates itself with a savory blend of lemon, pepper and barbecue sauce?

I swear, those people have no sense of humor whatsoever. All they did was turn gray and threaten to call campus security. (I'm not making this up. I couldn't make this kind of stuff up.)

--grendelkhan
-- Laws do not persuade just because they threaten --Seneca

my own experience (none / 0) (#496)
by luciensims on Thu Nov 20, 2003 at 10:01:20 PM EST

I am a life-long vegetarian, as my parents were vegetarians until I was 9. I'm 24 now, and haven't ever eaten meat.

I remain vegetarian for a number of reasons... Out of habit, because I don't like the idea of eating flesh, and because I don't look at animals as part of the food chain. I suppose there's an element of willpower-testing involved, but that theory goes out the window given that I don't actually get hungry looking at meat.

I go out of my way to ensure that my diet doesn't restrict anyone else from eating what they choose, and don't ever make disparaging remarks about what other people eat (except eyes - yuck!).

Nevertheless, a goodly portion of my life has been spent having to explain myself for my dietary choice, and copping criticism for it. I'm thick-skinned, and I can take it, but I imagine if a less confident person was accused on a regular basis of having 'vaginitis' they might get upset.

The social cost the author describes is very real. On a number of occasions I have turned down invitations to dinner because I couldn't be bothered going through the rigmarole of explaining my vegetarianism and then having the inevitable tedious conversation where my dining companions tell me all about how they could never give up meat, and don't I get tired of only eating vegetables?

I'd love to write these people off as morons, but given how common it is, I think it's more fair to say simply that people don't tend to understand anything different than their own experience, and are curious. It's unfortunate that some let their curiosity transform into defensiveness or aggression.

At times I have considered beginning to eat meat, if only to satisfy my own curiosity as to its taste, and to take part in the rituals associated with it. A previous poster mentioned a barbeque -- I'd have to say that a good ol' Aussie barbeque is something I sometimes dread unless I know the company well. Endless explanation and a tough hide are generally required.

You may like to think that society doesn't care, and it's all in the author's imagination. I wish that were the case.

Why I'm giving up vegetarianism after 8 years | 498 comments (458 topical, 40 editorial, 1 hidden)
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