Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Scientific evidence of previous Earth civilization discovered?

By onyxruby in News
Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 11:21:20 AM EST
Tags: Science (all tags)
Science

Cosmiverse, Pravda and Outside Asylum have a rather interesting series of articles about some stone maps that have been found in China that may date to some 120 million years ago. The map appears to be a topographical relief map done on a scale 1 : 1.1 Kilometers. To blockquote:

The map indicates the use of civil engineering to create a system of channels about 12,000 km in length and 500 meters wide, and 12 dams that are 300-500 meters wide.

Their work is being peer reviewed in the scientific community, so there is some hope and reasonable possibility that this is not a hoax.


The map was found by scientists who were working on researching possible Chinese immigration to Ural and Siberia. When this was originally found, it was thought that it had been carved by hand and was some 3000 years old. Upon examination, it became obvious that this was machine made. It was also discovered upon x-ray examination that the map is made up of three layers, including a layer of a type of ceramic that has never been used in China. To blockquote the article:
"During the searches, notes dated the 18th century were found in archives of Ufa governor-general. They reported about 200 unusual stone slabs which were situated not far from the Chandar village, Nurimanov Region. Chuvyrov and his colleague at once decided that slabs could be connected with Chinese migrants. Archive notes also reported that in 17th-18th centuries, expeditions of Russian scientists who investigated Ural Region had studied 200 white slabs with signs and patterns, while in early 20th century, archaeologist A.Schmidt also had seen some white slabs in Bashkiria. This made the scientist start the search."
If these are indeed the same slabs that were referred to in the 18th century, then the technology available then simply would not have been capable of making such a map. Even the technology available today for information needed for such a map is only under the development phase by the US and is not expected to be finished until the year 2010. These are excellent signs against an elaborate hoax.

To quote one Pravda article

At first we thought that the stone was about 3,000 years. Though, that age was gradually growing, till we identified the shells ingrained in the stone to sign some objects. Though, who could guarantee that the shell was alive while being ingrained in the map? The map's creator probably used a petrified find." ... While examining the stone, two shells were found on its surface. The age of one of them - Navicopsina munitus of Gyrodeidae family - is about 500 million years, while of the second one - Ecculiomphalus princeps of Ecculiomphalinae subfamily - is about 120 million years.
If the dating is correct, and it is not a hoax, then it could not have been man-made. This means either an advanced civilization whose remains have just been found, or interstellar travelers. In either case, it would be an unprecedented and terribly interesting find.

I think it is perfectly reasonable that a civilization could have evolved here naturally, and died off well before humans evolved. Consider that involved in a time span of about 250,000 years, and first branched off from chimpanzees about 6 million years ago. For something that is 120 million years old, that is more than ample time for such a previous species to have risen and fallen. Consider the asteroid that wiped out 99% of life on Earth 65 million years ago, and you have a perfectly plausible reason said species was wiped out in totality.

The obvious response to this would be to ask why we haven't found artifacts from such a society yet? If the date of 120 million years ago is correct, than it would be difficult for anything to have survived time, the asteroid blast that wiped out the dinosaurs, weathering, and tectonic forces. To put this in perspective, the Tyrannosaurus Rex, one of the more popular found dinosaurs, has only been found a few hundred times over the years worldwide - with most of these finds only fragmentary. To date this in comparison, T Rex lived 75 million years ago. In short, I am saying that it is reasonably possible for a species to have lived and simply not be found yet. New species of dinosaurs are discovered on a consistent basis, and many of them lived for tens of millions of years.

According to the Cosmiverse article, the map was carved into a stone and discovered upside down. If one wanted to make something last a very long time, this would be an excellent way to do it. By putting the stone upside down, the map is protected from the elements and erosion. It is of course possible that tectonic forces ripped it apart and placed it upside down. One theory is that this may possibly be one of 348 pieces, making a total map of 340 x 340 meters in size.

One obvious clue as to authenticity would be to examine the maps for tectonic changes. Mountain ranges may seem eternal to us, but they rise and fall like the tides by a geological standard. Simply put, look for the mountain ranges, and use those to obtain secondary dating. Indeed, this type of secondary dating is present. To blockquote:

"How did we manage to identify the place? At first, we could not imagine the map was so ancient. Happily, relief of today's Bashkiria has not changed so much within millions of years. We could identify Ufa Height, while Ufa Canyon is the main point of our proofs, because we carried out geological studies and found its track where it must be according to the ancient map. Displacement of the canyon happened because of tectonic stabs which moved from East. The group of Russian and Chinese specialists in the field of cartography, physics, mathematics, geology, chemistry, and Old Chinese language managed to precisely find out that the slab contains the map of Ural region, with rivers Belya, Ufimka, Sutolka."
Thus, the map has the appropriate tectonic changes that would be required for this to indeed be accurate for a date of 120 million years ago.

Is this for real? That is an answer that can only come from credible third party Scientific review. Luckily said review is already underway. To blockquote the review process:

What could be the destination of the map? That is probably the most interesting thing. Materials of the Bashkir find were already investigated in Centre of Historical Cartography in Visconsin[Sic], USA. The Americans were amazed. According to them, such three-dimensional map could have only one destination - a navigational one, while it could be worked out only through aerospace survey.

In the meanwhile, Bashkir scientists send out information about their find to different scientific centres of the world; in several international congresses, they have already given reports on the subject: The Civil Engineering Works Map of an Unknown Civilization of South Ural."

If this is real, the implications for the likelihood are enormous that life has evolved on other planets, for it means either that intelligent life could strike twice on one planet, or the map came from an extre-terrestial source. Personally, I am much more inclined to believe in life evolving here naturally. All blockquotes are from any of the three already referenced articles.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
The map
o Hoax! 38%
o Nifty 27%
o Aliens 4%
o Who cares 4%
o Proof that previous civilization evolved on Earth 9%
o There really is life out there 2%
o The Scientists have it all wrong 1%
o Fool! God created the Earth in 6 days. 12%

Votes: 139
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o interestin g
o series
o of
o articles
o few
o 75
o Also by onyxruby


Display: Sort:
Scientific evidence of previous Earth civilization discovered? | 201 comments (171 topical, 30 editorial, 0 hidden)
Dating (4.63 / 11) (#13)
by Simon Kinahan on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 07:38:47 AM EST

This is fascinating, but I don't think they have sufficient grounds for claiming the slab was made 120m years ago.

They claim to have tried radiocarbon dating, and a "uranium clock" (not sure what that means), and to have gotten conflicting results. Radiocarbon dates only apply to biological matter, so how you could use them to date a rock is unclear. The data of 120m years comes from shells on the surface. Now, unless I'm very confused, shells in rocks are used to get the date the rock was laid down at, not the date it was made into a human artifact. 120m year old rocks are nothing very unusual.


Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate

Hoax (3.22 / 9) (#14)
by marcos on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 07:41:51 AM EST

Well first of all, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason any human being can give to doubt the existence of Aliens or of an old civilisation on earth. Look at yourself. The human being is very intricate and complex, and if nature can develop such a lifeform here and now, then it can do it elsewhere and at another time.

That said, I think this is a hoax. One 1 map was found, and it was found after the scientists had told everybody that they were looking for such a map. I think that some rock-cutter just took a slab of old rock and cut it in a way that would satisfy the scientists needs. This is just a personal opinion, and not anything I can prove.

And also, why those two news sites? Why not BBC and CNN? Those are not exactly the most reputable news sources.

obligatory topical quote (4.75 / 16) (#16)
by martingale on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 07:48:37 AM EST

"Oh my God ... I'm back .. I'm home ... all the time. We finally, really did it. You maniacs! You blew it up! Augh... Damn you... damn you all to hell!" -CH

scientific peer review? (3.88 / 9) (#23)
by danny on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 07:59:38 AM EST

Neither Pravda or Cosmiverse are scientific journals. Frankly, until some more reputable source is found for this, I dont think it's even worth looking at. There are way too many of these stories going around to be worth bothering with.

Danny.
[900 book reviews and other stuff]

Pictures (3.14 / 7) (#25)
by Simon Kinahan on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 08:03:22 AM EST

Am I missing something, or does the picture look like a picture of a badly cracked lump of rock ?

Simon

If you disagree, post, don't moderate
The scientists are too sure. (3.50 / 8) (#29)
by MickLinux on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 08:14:01 AM EST

The "scientists" in the main article sound entirely too sure of themselves, and carry the term "scientist" entirely too high.  

The net message that I get from this is "China is #1!", which is all well and good -- surely it is obvious to all that China is indeed number one, but the statement is mathematically self-verifying by standard inductive reasoning , and thus no further proof is necesary.<p>

However, if people <b>really would like this kind of thing</b>, I can find a whole bunch of links to unity generators, gas-saving devices that will reduce your fuel consumption by 120%, and the biological data from the Area-51 martian corpses (including the entire DNA map of each one of them).  Indeed, if I can't find such a site I can make one up.  

And, in case anyone should worry about it being untrue, I can put those fears to rest by providing them with evidence that each of these was first discovered in Communist China.<p>

I make a call to grace, for the alternative is more broken than you can imagine.

Smells a bit like 'Chariots of the Gods' to me (3.66 / 3) (#31)
by 8ctavIan on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 08:21:03 AM EST

And if you don't know what that is: then check this out

But Pravda means truth in Russian, so hey, it must be true!


Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice. -- H.L. Mencken

The age of the rock (4.53 / 13) (#36)
by sto0 on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 08:26:39 AM EST

"At first we thought that the stone was about 3,000 years. Though, that age was gradually growing, till we identified the shells ingrained in the stone to sign some objects. Though, who could guarantee that the shell was alive while being ingrained in the map? The map's creator probably used a petrified find."

This seems to indicate to me that, as with many non-scientific reports, the most sensational answer has been used. Chuvyrov clearly seems to state that he believes that the creator used a petrified find. This would be by far the most probable possibility. If we can't go on the actual age of the raw rock then another method for dating it has to be used.

Secondly:

"When the research was at its height, a small stone - chalcedony - got to professor Chuvyrov's table, containing a similar relief. Probably somebody, who saw the stab wanted to copy the relief. Though, who and why?"

This is highly suspicious as well. I really want to believe that the scientists have not been the victims of a really sad person, but this may not be the case. The machined nature of the rock further enhances this possibility.

Having said all this, hopefully this will be investigated by more people, and therefore reduce the risk of hoaxes and poor scientific reasoning.

I'm reminded of that X-Files poster (4.37 / 8) (#45)
by Gord ca on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 09:19:27 AM EST

"I Want To Believe" - under a fuzzy picture that looks like a flying saucer to some. Here it's an unclear picture of a slab of rock, which some guy claims to be an alien artifact.

It'd be so cool if this were for real, but the chances of that don't look good right now.

If I'm attacking your idea, it's probably because I like it

1 : 1.1 scale? (3.16 / 6) (#49)
by jabber on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 10:29:50 AM EST

That's a pretty big map.

Somehow, I think this should be in the 'humor' section, but I'm giving it a +1 anyway.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

BS (2.28 / 7) (#51)
by evilpckls on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 10:39:33 AM EST

but well written.

-------
"This is proof that fish geeks are just weird. You look like you've wet your pants, and I have a fish in my coat." --nstenz

What's it a map of? (2.00 / 15) (#52)
by jabber on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 10:42:57 AM EST

Does it depict present day land formations? Wow! Those aliens from 120 million years ago were time travelers too!! Or is it of the land formations from their time? Did these 'scientists' travel back in time to verify this? It's truly fascinating to me that the reasons given for the unlikely survival of such an 'artifact' are precisely the ones which invalidate the idea in the first place - and nobody's noticed.

[TINK5C] |"Is K5 my kapusta intellectual teddy bear?"| "Yes"

Things to swallow (2.40 / 10) (#56)
by Yellowbeard on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 11:19:02 AM EST

"Consider the asteroid that wiped out 99% of life on Earth 65 million years ago, and you have a perfectly plausible reason said species was wiped out in totality. "

First of all, I don't buy this statement at all, and it seems to have far more people duped than 120 million year old stone maps. This whole "wiped out by an asteroid" bit is really stupid in a lot of ways. I can't believe so many people are taken in by it. But, you know - whatever. However, the rest sounds like it should be in one of those books that claims that the pyramids were made by aliens.

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt." - Deniro in Ronin


Sounds like bulls*** (3.25 / 4) (#59)
by CitAnon on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 11:31:48 AM EST

So some guys took 120 million year old rocks, slapped them together with some cement, and made a bunch of cuts. Wohoo! We've found an ancient civilization.

If this was done 120 million years ago, how could they tell, with all the erosion and weathering of the tablets that would take place, if mechanical cutting was used or not in the first place? But it's made by an advanced civilization. Right, and I'm really E.T.

And what's a uranium chronometer anyways?

Still, +1 section so we can have an interesting debate and people who know something about archeology can strike it down.



Cosmiverse? (3.66 / 6) (#62)
by Groby on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 12:06:02 PM EST

It's on Cosmiverse? For crying out loud, those guys are the net equivalent of the National Enquirer!

Probably even worse :)

Add This To The Junkpile of Xenoarcheology (3.11 / 9) (#63)
by thelizman on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 12:20:09 PM EST

Not suprisingly, there is a preponderance of evidence that several very advanced civilizations, some as advanced at mid 20th century, may have existed. Ancient Hindu texts talk about jetlike aircraft, and 'arrows that explode with the fury of the rising sun'. With wonders such as the pyramids at giza, or the Plateau Des Jarres in Cambodia, there are a lot of whys and hows that defy conventional thinking about the ancient world. It should also give us pause to reconsider our own fragile civilization.
--

"Our language is sufficiently clumsy enough to allow us to believe foolish things." - George Orwell
Ghost stories, extraterrestrials... (4.28 / 7) (#64)
by Humuhumunukunukuapuaa on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 12:33:21 PM EST

What next? - the new K5-plan diet? Gossip about Rusty's love life? Elvis sighted on /.?
--
(&()*&^#@!!&_($&)!&$(*#$(!$&_(!$*&&!$@
Maybe not a hoax, but probably not aliens... (5.00 / 18) (#68)
by bodrius on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 12:56:43 PM EST

Or "reptilians" either, so David Icke should probably calm down.

I would stick with the scientists title for their report: "Civil Engineering works of an Unknown Ancient Civilization", and would take a more conservative approach to the age.

Why? Because I do not see convincing evidence in the articles that the scientists themselves are sticking to the 120 million years date.

They identified the shells to be 120 million years old. I think we can find some of those these days too.

They seem to have identified some materials in the rock to be 120 million years old, but the articles don't seem to me specific enough to say they identified the manufacture date of the piece to be the same. If they did, I would expect a decent explanation on how do you identify the manufacture date of each material, and when were they put together.

I'm perfectly willing to believe some unknown civilization created this, as unlikely as it seems without our "great technological achievements", but my first hypothesis would be a human civilization, even if that means one thousands of years old.

Each human civilization in a time of relative prosperity has historically underestimated both its peers and its predecessors achievements. It would not be the first time we encounter a relatively advanced technological accomplishment and judge it would have been "impossible" for X or Y people to create it; traditionally we then turn to the supernatural, the divine or the "alternative" to explain it.

In the 20th century that means aliens, but before we had Atlantis, Lemuria, the Lost Tribes of Israel, the Ancient Aryan People, the Masters From The World Below, etcetera, etcetera.

We have used them to explain pyramids, complex structures, Chinese materials found in America, American materials found in Egypt, and other stuff. The idea that someone found an alternative way to do what we have just learned to do now, thousands of years earlier, is always unthinkable.

Today, however, we have reasonable scientists arguing that yes, the Incas may have discovered flight before us, the Chinese were indeed travelling all over the seas, the American civilizations may have traded with Asia, Africa and Europe, and ancient peoples everywhere had very interesting ways of moving rocks with ropes, leather and wood, we had not thought of before.

All of that without God, aliens, the Chosen Race or the demi-human civilizations of yore showing them the way.

Basicly, that people with more limited means may have been smarter than us, long ago.

Unthinkable.

But unless I see conclusive evidence that the researchers themselves believe, from their priviledged access to and knowledge of the evidence, that this thing is 120 million years old, I will not assume they do.

And unless this researchers provide convincing evidence to the scientific community and the public in general that they are being reasonable and scientific about this, I will not assume this thing is 120 million years old.

It seems to me that some reporter saw the 120 million years old, heard the words "the creator" (of the artifact), and went nuts during editing mode, so I don't trust the context for now.

After what they did with the Qunram texts controversy or other examples I would be not very surprised. Heck, I once saw a "journalist" manage to get a poor scientist to confirm that "it might be possible" the Shoemaker-Levy comet crashing on Jupiter "represents a danger to Earth" through able interruptions, editing, and abuse of the line "we have no idea what exactly will happen".
Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4, everything else follows...

Other problems (3.37 / 8) (#69)
by hatshepsut on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 01:09:41 PM EST

From the articles, the dimensions of the slab were 148 cm x 106 cm x 16 cm and weighed "at least 1 ton", that gives it, if my math is correct, a density of 0.28 g/cm3 (or just over a quarter the density of water). With a 14 cm thick base of dolomite (hard rock with density more like 2.8 g/cm3) it would have to be MAGIC, not extraterrestrial, to have that density. I have trouble believing they would underestimate the weight by a factor of 10.

Also, when you search for uranium chronometers, you find that U-238 has a half-life of 4.47 billion years and is sometimes used to determine the age of stars. Information I could find on Google indicated that this was not a good method to date objects on earth as the "closed-system" assumption was almost always invalid.

Sure, the whole thing is "cute", but until I can see more than a fuzzy picture that looks like it is of a dried river bed, and can read something more than breathless sensationalism, I'll err on the side of skepticism.

Atlantis (2.50 / 6) (#73)
by dirvish on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 01:26:56 PM EST

It must be Atlantis or one of the other ancient maritime communities.

Technical Certification Blog, Anti Spam Blog
I seriously doubt the age of this (3.42 / 7) (#74)
by toganet on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 01:37:26 PM EST

Using the dates for the two species of shells that are embedded in the artifact can only be used to determine a maximum possible age.  That is, the artifact cannot be older than its constituent parts.

A clearer picture would be nice, too.

My personal theory on this:  Aliens, hitching a ride on Inca spacecraft, installed this map, complete with "you are here" marker, and then were struck down by an evil US-gov't engineered time-travelling "retro" virus and were unable to return.  Seriously, that's got to be what happened!

Wow, I even worked a pun into that.  I better grab some lunch before I really start sounding stupid.

Johnson's law: Systems resemble the organizations that create them.


Obscure reference relating to subject: (4.40 / 5) (#77)
by LilDebbie on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 02:50:31 PM EST

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl ftagn!

If anyone recognizes that, I'll be impressed. And if you do recognize it, check my spelling. Chee!

My name is LilDebbie and I have a garden.
- hugin -

Big flaw (2.12 / 8) (#83)
by awgsilyari on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 03:27:48 PM EST

The biggest flaw in this HOAX is the claim that the map is more accurate than humans can currently produce.

If we don't have the technology to create such an accurate map, how can we possibly know that this map is MORE accurate?

--------
Please direct SPAM to john@neuralnw.com

artifacts (3.50 / 6) (#85)
by marimba on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 03:39:36 PM EST

The obvious response to this would be to ask why we haven't found artifacts from such a society yet?

What makes you think we haven't? I've always thought that iron ore deposits are the junkyards of a former civilization.



My prediction (2.60 / 5) (#92)
by CrazyJub on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 04:17:18 PM EST

is that in the very near future, this story will be eported as fact on the Art Bell show, and be used to prove another theory all together. Which one? Pick one.

Alien rods
Atlantis
That aliens built the pyramids
That aliens HELPED us build the pyramids
or that Elvis had something to do with it....or the Illuminati.


Release time (4.66 / 6) (#93)
by mujo on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 04:22:16 PM EST

I've noted that the news on cosmiverse is dated May 6th. If this had any credibility wouldn't this have been posted on some more reliable scientific sites by now??.I mean given the importance of such a finding...

When searching on google you only get the 3 sources mentionned in the article. No trace of it elsewhere. What about sources from the peers who are reviewing it?

Shell game? (2.50 / 8) (#96)
by mingofmongo on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 04:36:31 PM EST

You know, the Weekly World News had an article a while back about a hole in the earth that lead to Hell! And a World War 2 bomber found on the moon (quoteing Russian sources also). In light of all this, what's the big deal about 120 million year old maps?

"What they don't seem to get is that the key to living the good life is to avoid that brass ring like the fucking plague."
--The Onion

Slightly O/T (3.00 / 4) (#107)
by Comblock on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 05:15:45 PM EST

Hoax or not, thoughts of a previous Earth civilization is facinating stuff to ponder.

Here's another bit of previously unknown information, to muddy up the waters even more.

I know of two World Class Cave Exploreres, who each seperately, and at differenty locations, have discovered a shiney, tubular, metal object deep (like minus 400 meters) in alpine caves in South America.

These objects appear to be man made, and unlike anything they have ever seen, as far as materials workmanship goes. No visable seams, and no machining marks, yet obviously not natural.

In both cases, they were deeply embedded in the Limestone Matrix of the cave, and could not be removed because they had no tools with them to do so. But enough of the object was weathered away for them to get some idea of it's size and dimensions.

Ok, I'll admit that's kinda weird, but what's really weird, is that the age of the limestone deposits is about 65 million years old. So these objects had to exist before that time!

Both of these guys won't talk about their experiences, it shook them up so much. One of them did write a short 'fictional' story about his experience that was published in a closed circulation caving magazine.

However, in private, he will tell select people that he trusts, that the story is totally true.

Both of these individuals are honest, and straightforward, not at all prone to practical jokes. It REALLY shook both of them up badly.

No, you won't find a Google record about this anywhere...

Make of it what you will.

Bad translation? (4.55 / 9) (#112)
by ebatsky on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 05:30:24 PM EST

I haven't read the english version of the article because pravda's translations tend to be pretty horrible, but I'll try to clarify some things people have mentioned that may be caused by bad translation.

First, the dating of the plate wasn't established because two methods they used to date it produced different results. It says that they're using 120 million years old as an approximate date 'for now' because it could be a lot older or younger than that but its the best they can come up with. Also, I thought you could date organic material like those shells using carbon dating, which is a lot more precise and was used to date dinosaur bones and such?

Second, the article says that humans today would not only be unable to make that map, but that we wouldn't be able to create even a tenth of the irrigation system like the one they found on the map, with huge dams (a LOT bigger than any that exist today), etc. This is all from the first paragraph of the article about the press conference. I looked at the english version and it doesn't even have that paragraph, the translation starts right from the second one.

By the way, if you don't already know, 99-100% of content on cosmiverse is just (poorly) paraphrased articles that they find on other websites so you should probably disregard anything you read there and just look at the original article which, in this case, is pravda's.

Unlikeliness of prior civilizations (4.70 / 10) (#133)
by Dyolf Knip on Wed Jun 05, 2002 at 09:30:45 PM EST

We don't find much evidence of T-Rex and other multi-mega-year old creatures because the creatures themselves are the only evidence left behind. Humans and our civilization are in a whole different category.

Consider how long one of our landfills will be around, containing objects obviously of artificial creation. Barring air and water erosion, a glass jar can last for hundreds of centuries. Some would last much, much longer. Consider how much processed iron and steel there is laying around. Is aluminum found by itself and not in an ore, ever? Spent uranium rods and other radioactives, especially the ones in underground facilities, would attract immediate attention by any post-human archaeologists. If every human disappeared tomorrow the artifacts of our civilization could still be found a billion years from now. We can find shards of sun-baked mud from a village thousands of years old. Wouldn't we be able to find the screws and bolts (literally and figuratively) of an entire civlization on time scales far larger?

A world-spanning civilization would simply be impossible to hide. There is just too much stuff associated with it for all of it to disappear completely. Not even continental drift, slowly stuffing the entire crust into the mantle a piece at a time, could do it, as there are parts of today's plates that are ancient beyond belief. Any junk left over on those would be found.

To suggest that the only things left behind by this super-advanced civ are some stone tablets is silly. Alien visitors, _perhaps_. This line of thought would have the advantage on not requiring two space-faring intelligences coexisting in the same time frame. And they'd leave much fewer and more ephemeral traces. I cannot fathom why they'd be carving stone maps with tools supposedly beyond today's ken, but hey... the thing about aliens is that they're alien.

Still, from what others have said about the news sources in question, I'd be a little more convinced if it wasn't left to Pravda to report it.

---
If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly.

Dyolf Knip

Someone (1.00 / 2) (#140)
by medham on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 01:43:11 AM EST

Here needs to read the Annales historians and do some pondering before posting this right-wing gibberuling.

The real 'medham' has userid 6831.

I saw the creators of this map on TV... (3.33 / 3) (#144)
by taiwanjohn on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 05:35:18 AM EST

Finally! proof of the existence of the Sleestaks from Land of the Lost!!

I can't wait till they unearth one of those groovy Pylons! Then we can use it to contact the pilots of the Hale-Bopp comet and beg them to return and launch a new era of peace and harmony.

Hallelujah!!

--jrd

Uh... (5.00 / 2) (#147)
by J'raxis on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 06:54:13 AM EST

On the map, a giant irrigative system could be seen: in addition to the rivers, there are two 500-metre-wide channel systems, 12 dams, 300-500 metres wide, approximately 10 km long and 3 km deep each. The dams most likely helped in turning water in either side, while to create them over 1 quadrillion cubic metres of earth was shifted.

If fragments of this map survived, why didn’t at least some physical evidence of these dams also survive?

— The Raxis

[ J’raxis·Com | Liberty in your lifetime ]

some questions... (4.00 / 1) (#148)
by joto on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 07:27:22 AM EST

Why Pravda instead of a scientific publication?

Why was "the doctor of physical and mathematical science, professor of Bashkir State University, Alexander Chuvyrov" involved in this, instead of some archaeologist, geologist, or anyone else more likely to do field excursions? Is it because "physical and mathematical sciences" sound more impressive?

How can they look at the squiggles at an age-old map and decide that it represents a canal-system. It could be roads, irrigation systems, borders, etc.. Why insist on the absolutely most unlikely scenario?

I am not even sure I understood how they tried to determine the age of the rock, but given that it was made from three pieces, at least two of them which seems to not be "rock", but rather cement, and porcelain or glass, it should be possible to find a better dating method.

Why all the extraordinary claims of stuff not being able to make this rock with modern day technology? I seriously doubt that. It really makes you sound like a Dänecken.

Interesting, but... (5.00 / 1) (#158)
by wormboy on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 10:24:05 AM EST

First off, somebody beat me to the Lovecraft reference. Damn.

Anyway, I had never heard of the Centre of Historical Cartography, so I did a little googling. I tried Center/Centre and of/for, given some of the translation issues apparent in the linked articles. Unfortunately, the only references I could find were to those same articles. Does anybody have any other info?

Also, I'm a bit confused as to how the could be so sure that the slab was a relief map of the area, but with a bunch of channels and dams. Wouldn't the dams and channels change the topography by their existence and even more by their destruction? Rivers were used to establish the location, but if there were dams that broke (or were destroyed by their makers) would the rivers have new courses?

Also, the articles claim that the technology to create a three-dimensional relief map won't be available until 2010 or so. Actually they are available commercially right now - see http://www.maps4u.com/PhxMappingService/AZ3DRasiedReliefMap.html for an example.

A lot of people are saying "hoax", but it seems to me that it could be errors and exuberance, compounded by translation issues and journalistic stupidity.


Is anyone else thinking... (4.00 / 1) (#159)
by marktaw on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 10:38:50 AM EST

Is anyone else thinking "Potato that Looks like Elvis?"



Clear pictures? (5.00 / 1) (#175)
by wytcld on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 09:49:49 PM EST

Why would the photographer not show closeups of the surface of the slabs, with samples of the symbols and writing, and cross-sections of the edge? Maybe because it takes a lot of imagination to see the stuff there, and they didn't have anyone around good at PhotoShop?

Scientist Interviewed (5.00 / 1) (#176)
by onyxruby on Thu Jun 06, 2002 at 09:55:45 PM EST

Apparently the scientist behind this claim has gotten some 20,000 emails about it. He has also been contacted by various TV stations, and journalists for other forms of media. The interview where he answered questions can be found here. He has stated that more detailed pictures of this map will be published soon. He also claims that five other such stones have been found and are awaiting recovery.

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.

well maybe. (none / 0) (#187)
by /dev/trash on Sun Jun 09, 2002 at 01:24:55 AM EST

If you believe in God or a god, then yeah there must have been other attempts at humans.  Look at certain chapters in the Old Testament.

If you don't believe in a God or a god, scientifically all matter for life came from the sun, some ( which would have created carbon based lifeforms) came from asteroids etc etc.  So it is feasible that another based lifeform was here.

Of course we'll never really know.

---
Updated 02/20/2004
New Site

strong signs of a hoax here (none / 0) (#191)
by khallow on Sun Jun 09, 2002 at 03:28:55 PM EST

The original slab was first seen by the researchers under the porch of the ex-chairman of the local agricultural council. This guy apparently approached the researchers rather than the other way around. Also, he has motive (increased tourism, for example), opportunity (probably can get the appropriate tasks done cheaply or even for free), and complete lack of risk (so what if it's fake - he's apparently retired). Second, the map shows lots of dams. Dams are the pride and joy (if you will) of that part of the world. It's a little suspicious to me that the predecessors would apparently feel the same exact way.

Finally, despite all the protestations to the contrary, there's no evidence that the slab in question is more than a few years old. Namely, no accurate dating (aside from eyeballing some shells glommed on top which incidentally differ in ages by 300 million years). Incidentally, if we take the claims at face value (and the origin of the shells), then the slab has been underwater at least part of its lifespan - so how come it shows recognizable river valleys and mountains? This leads to the obvious question whether the dams purportly shown actually exist on the ground. Again, no evidence has been seen for extensive ancient dams. This is peculiar since the region was no doubt heavily surveyed for the prospects of hydroelectric power. Previous dam building would stand a good chance of getting noted (perhaps glaciation would remove the obvious traces before around ten or twenty thousand years ago - I don't know). Further, the researchers who discovered the original stone slab seem unable to locate one either (and they are looking for them). In summary, it fails the smell test.

Stating the obvious since 1969.

Stone Map? lump of rock more likely... (none / 0) (#204)
by Iarnulfr on Sun Jul 14, 2002 at 11:24:41 PM EST

After a quick look at the admittedly bad pictures on the Pravda article, it looks like a lump of stone with extensive fracturing, probably conjugate tectonic joint sets or extension fractures, which often show up as intersecting diamond patterns of cracks. Dating? Uranium, Argon, Rubidium and Sr isotopes are generally only good for volcanic rocks or some metamorphic rocks, and at that they date the crystallisation age, so would only give a maximum age. The material sounds like a limestone to me (given that it had shells in it) so your only easy dating options are the fossils, again giving only a maximum age. Carbon dating is only good for recent biological material, anything more than 40,000 years starts getting very large errors, although some techniques can push it back to maybe 70,000, but with less accuracy. Sounds like a hoax. Cheers Iarnulfr
Who'll stop the cavalry?
Scientific evidence of previous Earth civilization discovered? | 201 comments (171 topical, 30 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!