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Wikipedia is wide open. Why is it growing so fast? Why isn't it full of nonsense?

By Larry Sanger in Op-Ed
Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 09:00:44 AM EST
Tags: Internet (all tags)
Internet

After the July 25 K5 article I wrote about Wikipedia was Slashdotted, the free encyclopedia project has broken the 10,000 article barrier, and it has been the focus of stories in MIT's Technology Review as well as in The New York Times. The most recent development is that free software guru Richard Stallman has endorsed the Wikipedia project alongside his endorsement of Nupedia. Stallman described Wikipedia's successes to me as "really exciting news."

This growth and attention is paradoxical. Why should anyone care about it? After all, Wikipedia is a wide-open project--anyone can write for it. Moreover, the wiki software that runs the project allows anyone to edit any page, instantly. So, it must be full of a bunch of crank submissions, vandalism, and plain old sophomoric stupidity. But it's not. It's not half bad. In places, and increasingly, it's of very high quality. And that's even more paradoxical.


(Full disclosure: I am, with Jimmy Wales, the co-founder of Wikipedia and its only full-time paid participant. I feel very uncomfortable calling myself its "editor-in-chief." The participants would rebel at that title, and it would be "anti-wiki"--"anti-wiki" is bad, in case you didn't know.)

Among Wikipedia's active contributors are Axel Boldt, mathematics professor at Metropolitan State University in Saint Paul, Minnesota; Michael Tinkler, a professor of art history; a female professor in both ESL and mathematics at Columbia U. and CUNY; and well over a dozen other Ph.D.'s, M.D.'s, and highly-educated people from around the world. In addition, there are many extremely bright, articulate graduate students and undergraduates involved. There are also dozens of computer programmers who are constantly displaying their knowledge both within and outside the bounds of computer science. Everyone is welcome and their work is judged on its own merits.

But--why all this activity and interest? Isn't it puzzling? Surely it is. Wiki software must be the most promiscuous form of publishing there is--Wikipedia will take anything from anybody. So how is it possible that so many otherwise upstanding intellectuals love Wikipedia (some, secretly) and spend so much time on it? Why aren't we writing for academic journals, or something?

It's fun, first of all. But it can be fun for intellectually serious people only if we know that we're creating something of quality. And how do we know that? The basic outlines of the answer ought to be fairly obvious to anyone who has read Eric S. Raymond's famous essay on the open source movement, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar." Remember, if we can edit any page, then we can edit each other's work. Given enough eyeballs, all errors are shallow. We catch each other's mistakes and enjoy correcting them.

So, we're are constantly monitoring Wikipedia's Recent Changes page. When--as happens rarely--some eedjit shows up and vandalizes a page, it's fixed nearly instantly. (We save back copies of all pages, and these are very easily accessible.) We (that is, we participants) work on a lot of different pages, and I think most of us feel some collective responsibility for how the whole thing looks. We're constantly cleaning up after each other and new people.

In the process, a camaraderie--a politeness and congeniality not found on many online discussion forums--has developed. We've got to respect each other, because we are each other's editors, and we all have more or less the same goal: to create a huge, high-quality free encyclopedia.

The way I see it, we're having fun creating a thing of beauty.

Perhaps this doesn't explain something, though. Why should highly-qualified people get involved with Wikipedia? It's not peer-reviewed. So, isn't it lightweight? Why should any serious researcher care about it? Why should anyone rely on it?

This is a common first reaction. The attitude appeared--gently expressed--in both the Technology Review article

Walter Bender, executive director of MIT's Media Laboratory, believes that what makes Britannica a valuable resource is the scope and depth of its editing, and free Web-based encyclopedias such as Wikipedia will probably never be able to compete with that.
and the New York Times article:
But even if Wikipedia doesn't become a popular resource it may survive, even thrive, because of what it offers to those working on it.

That is the view of James J. O'Donnell, a professor of classical studies and vice provost for information systems at the University of Pennsylvania...

"The thing and the experience may be much more valuable for those who are creating it than it is for somebody who just walks in saying, `So when is the Second Punic War and which one was that?' " Mr. O'Donnell said. "A community that finds a way to talk in this way is creating education and online discourse at a higher level."

The implication is that Wikipedia has a nice community, but it doesn't have much breadth, depth, or reliability; so if you want serious information, go to Britannica.

If Wikipedians believed that, we'd bag the whole thing. We think we are--gradually, and sometimes from very rough first drafts--developing a reliable resource. So what answer can I offer to the above concerns?

Part of the answer is already given above: Wikipedia's self-correction process (Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales calls it "self-healing") is very robust. There is considerable value created by the public review process that is continually ongoing on Wikipedia--value that is very easy to underestimate, for those who have not experienced it adequately.

Another part of the answer is that, of course, we've been around since just last January, 2001. (Britannica's had a few centuries' head start.) Significantly, Wikipedia's rate of growth has been steadily increasing--in terms of article numbers and quality, traffic to the website, and attracting more highly-qualified contributors. So it seems very reasonable to think that within a few years the project will surpass Britannica in both breadth and depth. At our current rate of growth, we will have over 100,000 articles by 2005; articles begun this year will be, in all likelihood, fleshed out to great detail. Not a few articles already have been.

But what about reliability? That's a third part of the answer. It seems very likely that, in coming months, Wikipedia will set up some sort of approval process, whereby certain versions of articles receive the stamp of approval of some body of Wikipedia reviewers. There have been two main proposals about how to set up a review process. Whatever the shape of the process, it would act entirely independently of article generation. (We certainly do not want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.) But after it's in place, we will be able to present a set of genuine expert-approved articles that can favorably compare with articles from any general encyclopedia--Britannica included.

Admittedly, Wikipedia isn't on the verge of world domination--yet. But it's growing beyond anyone's expectations. The rate of growth continues to increase. Once an approval process is installed, in short order Wikipedia will--I think--be able to boast a breadth, depth, and reliability to compare to any general encyclopedia you please.

Then we'll try to get to the depth and reliability of a whole reference library full of specialized encyclopedia--something no general encyclopedia has ever done.

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Wikipedia is wide open. Why is it growing so fast? Why isn't it full of nonsense? | 117 comments (116 topical, 1 editorial, 1 hidden)
I like the long-term plans... (3.77 / 9) (#2)
by rusty on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 05:18:16 AM EST

I like your focus on long-term development, sustainable development. I think the web has sorely lacked that, and I hope when you say "by 2005" you fully intend to be still alive and growing in 2005. I think the open content license is a good way to ensure that, too.

Good work, and don't let the nattering nabobs of corporate-media negativism get you down. Keep focusing on improving your quality, and eventually it'll be "Britannica who?" :-)

____
Not the real rusty

Limited by the markup language (4.25 / 8) (#3)
by LQ on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 05:22:47 AM EST

The trouble with all wikis that I've seen is that they are all limited by their markup language. Encyclopedia need a more flexible, visual mechanism than just an ascii psuedo HTML. There is an upper bound on how useful a wiki can be without the ability to diagram, annotate, upload images etc.

The openness of a freely editable wiki is a double edged sword. Can you really trust the quality of the content? But, by comparision, Everything2 has a rating system a bit like the other place. You really have to put in some effort to get started there. That might explain why they have some really dedicated contributers and some excellent content.

Nonsense in Wikipedia (4.07 / 13) (#4)
by streetlawyer on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 09:23:14 AM EST

A quick turn to the only area I am familiar with reveals an awful lot of crap. Going down the page:
  • Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations" was not the first major work of economics, except for English-speaking undergraduates who have never heard of Cantillon and Quesnay. The ommission of Quesnay is very bad indeed.
  • The discipline of economics does not discuss non-commodity societies "chiefly in terms of their transition to societies based on the exchange of commodities". This is a peculiarity of Marxist economics; indeed of historical materialism.
  • The statement that "Virtually everything is scarce; there are not enough resources around the world to satisfy humanity" is extraordinarily imprecise in almost every word used. Particularly, the failure to define "scarcity" and "satisfy" makes the sentence more or less meaningless.
  • Economic history is not mentioned at all, and development economics is treated as a third branch, separate from micro- and macro-economics. This might be the way in which the subject is treated in some textbooks, but it does not reflect any real distinction.
  • Economics is not "primarily concerned with interactions between buyer and seller".
Apart from these errors, the treatment is extremely partial and sketchy compared to Britannica's treatment. It also links to an article on the Austrian School which seems to imply that the Austrians and neoclassicals were on opposite sides of the calculation question and claims that the transformation problem is an Austrian critique of Marxism (the opposite is true)>

The labour theory of value article claims in its first sentence that market prices "tend toward" labour values; this is no part of the LTV. It also seems to imply that David Ricardo presented a reductio ad absurdum of Marx's labour theory of value; a quick glance at the date of Ricardo's death might have helped to avoid this error ("superseded" is also misspelled on this page)

The page on Keynesian economics is less outright bad, but very undergraduate (and not a bright undergraduate, either). It concentrates entirely on "vulgar Keynesianism" (deficit spending). It actually commits the howler of writing "This view opens the possibility of regulating the economy through changes in the money supply, but Keynes did not pursue that approach", which would be news to Keynesians! Anyone who thinks that Keynesian economics have "lost influence to other ideas such as monetarism" needs to get out of their Austin Powers-like 1970s time warp.

Before you ask, no, I do not propose to make any changes, although I am sure I could. I don't have enough time to turn the economics section into something worth reading (for no money) and I don't care to be associated with something that isn't good enough.

No real conclusion, just to say that the hysterical claims made above for the quality of WIkipedia really shouldn't be taken at face value.

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever

Attacks (3.00 / 1) (#8)
by slaytanic killer on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 11:39:31 AM EST

Wow, nice. A lot of these things are actually worth reading, and pointing to. I just started making warplans on attacking the Wikipedia, but it was clear that these attacks would just speed up measures by you to block them, that you would've implemented eventually anyway. Attack on the content would just take too much energy if I were working strictly through the Wikipedia system... and the rewards aren't that interesting.

The main difficulty is that there are too many sources of external knowledge. Sure, I can fool someone about something obscure, it is just a matter of time when someone reads something external and finds the error. After all, for my information to be credible, it had to point to something true and useful, as well as the lies. Those true things will point externally to other sources which will contradict my lies, as long as I don't control all information.

The information doesn't have to be perfectly reliable. People live their lives in a haze of wrong and incomplete information they hear from the guy down the block, or the closed-minded professor. The standards Wikipedia has to fulfill are actually pretty low.

I quit (4.33 / 9) (#12)
by yooden on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 11:57:43 AM EST

I was pointed to the Wikipedia by Slashdot and immediately loved it. I started mucking around with a few articles, checked Recent Changes each day and generally tried to make myself useful.

I quit when I disagreed about one thing with Larry Sanger, no less. He didn't want to discuss the issue ("Frankly, I don't give a rat's patoot whether you think [the Issue]"), instead decreeing what was the Right Thing and what was merely opinion. ("Yooden and [another contributor] continue to maintain, puzzlingly, that their position is fact. I think it is obviously not only opinion, but false opinion." This without ever answering my arguments.)

(The Issue doesn't really matter. I'm only avoiding it because it's loosely related to the WTC attacks.)

I thought an editing match with Larry was pointless, so I tried for a time to simply avoid him. I finally quit (after Larry messed up another article which I contributed to) because this is just the thing the Wikipedia should not be.

I still think the Wikipedia is a great idea, but it's current implementation is tainted by its creator.

Yes, I'm still pissed.



Uh, yeah.... (3.80 / 5) (#15)
by Otter on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 12:07:52 PM EST

Not to rain on your parade (this is an interesting, ambitious project and I wish you the best of luck) a quick look through your current content suggests it's a little early for you to be bragging as much as you are. And including a page trashing Brittanica, to boot.

Picking three random topics, and yes, they're the three I looked at, not a selection tailored to make a point, and yes, I'm hungry, looking forward to winter and planning a vacation:

Szechuan Cuisine
Szechuan? cuisine uses a lot of chili peppers.

I could have gone to Google and gotten far more information -- plus a link to the real CIA Factbook. Some famous Szechuan dishes include: * Ma Yi Sheng Shu - (lit. ants climbing up the tree,) probably describes the tinkling feeling after eating too much pepper. See also: cooking

Ice Hockey
Hockey is a team sport played on an ice surface. The area of play is called a rink. The rink is 200ft long and 100ft wide. The corners of the rink are rounded with a radius of 28ft. The rink is enclosed by boards that are between 3ft 4in and 4ft high. The surface of the ice is broken up into different sections by lines painted beneath the ice surface. Goal lines are located 10 ft from each end of the rink. Goal lines extend across the width of the rink, are 2" wide and are painted red. Blue lines are located 60 ft from each end of the rink. The Blue lines extend across the width of the rink and continue up the boards. They are 12" wide and, obviously, are painted blue. The Centre Red line is a 12" wide red line located in the centre of the rink and extending across the width of the rink and up the boards.

Laos
This one (I'm not going to bother quoting it) impressed me at first with its thoroughness. Then I noticed it's lifted directly from the CIA World Factbook entry.

Votes? (2.90 / 10) (#17)
by DarkZero on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 12:15:51 PM EST

How the Hell did this commercial get past the voting process? This absolutely worthless article is nothing but a blatant advertisement for Wikipedia, and it's obviously not objective at all. It's written by one of the people that runs the damn thing, and it makes no mention of the blatant problems in its structure (check out the listing for Big O under Television - Japanese Animation. A bit of a basic structural problem, eh?), and just waves off the other structural problems such as the ability to overwrite other people's articles (something Everything2 has fixed, while adding the ability for multiple perspectives on debatable or non-factual issues at the same time) and the obviously poor editing process that has left tons of little bits of information which the K5ers are very rightfully tearing apart. Not to mention the fact that the majority of the articles I've read so far are uninformed and include a request for more information in them.

This is nothing but the makers of a faulty creation trying to pass a commercial off as journalism. It's both disgusting and stupid.



Umm, not to be mean, but... (4.00 / 1) (#21)
by Kasreyn on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 12:22:39 PM EST

...Either you lost your train of thought somewhere along your way, or else your article is a rather thinly disguised plug for your project. =P

I wish you all the best, but is K5 really the place to come in and post an article that does little but too your own horn(s)? Seeing as how you answer your own main question (answer being, we back up pages and replace them when some 1337 14 year old overwrites someone's hard work with rubbish). So since you have no question, I guess I have no answer.

Good luck anyway, though. If Wikipedia ever comes close to being "complete" (in the sense of about as complete as commercial offerings, or more), I'd even buy a copy! Or, well, get a free copy and donate. =P


-Kasreyn


"Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgement Day:
We never asked to be born in the first place."

R.I.P. Kurt. You will be missed.
Cathedral, not Bazaar (2.60 / 5) (#30)
by bugmaster on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 01:03:44 PM EST

From reading the story, it seems to me that Wiki is a Cathedral, not a Bazaar. Multiple (and sometimes anonymous) users submit stories and edits, but, ultimately, it is the founders who decide what gets published. From what I understand, the situation is similar with Linux (though, not being a Linux hacker myself, I shouldn't talk :-) .

It seems to me that not-for-profit Cathedrals, in general, do much better than Bazaars. Slashdot teeters on the edge - while its stories, which are selected Cathedral-style are generally good (with the exception of a few JonKatz ramblings now and then), anarchy periodically swallows up the comments. Internet usegroups and IRC are usually a complete bazaar, and thus an unquenchable pyre of flames. Linux is a Cathedral, and it's doing quite well; while Windows is actually a bazaar (built by committee), and it can barely hold together.

Why do so many open-source affectionados cringe at the first mention of a hierarchy ? Bringing order into chaos is a good idea.


>|<*:=

Agreed - blatant plug (3.33 / 3) (#43)
by nstenz on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 02:02:17 PM EST

Does it bother anyone else that the link entitled July 25 K5 Article is a link to add the story to your hotlist instead of just a link to the story?

Check it out yourself:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/hotlist/add/2001/7/25/103136/121/displaystory
I'd much prefer a normal link, thank-you-very-much:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/25/103136/121

Just one of those things that makes you wonder if someone has a hidden agenda... but obviously not... It's quite clear what's on the agenda.

My advice? (1.40 / 5) (#57)
by core10k on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 04:01:33 PM EST

Give up. Everything2 , and even the hideous h2g2 (or whatever they're calling it now) are both more populous with articles and more feature-filled. Wikiwiki *was* Cool; it isn't now.

walking a line (4.00 / 2) (#70)
by brownpaperkittens on Mon Sep 24, 2001 at 07:27:48 PM EST

It seems to me that you're walking a fine line here in terms of popularity. Not enough people and your project doesn't get started (I don't think this is a problem in your case though). Too many people and you start to attract the attention of more malicious elements. You won't just be able to rely on the goodwill of the (relatively few) contributors any more.

OK, so you have Recent Changes and backups to correct the occasional piece of vandalism - but what do you do if people start running scripts to repost their own bit of vandalism or spam? Every second, say? And from different locations so you can't just block their IP address? Won't it suffer the same problems usenet did with disappearing under a weight of spam (alright, so I'm overstating the case on that - usenet is far from dead, but you see what I mean)?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about the Wiki system. I've been dipping in and out of Wikipedia for a few months (though I haven't contributed, apart from correcting the odd bit of spelling/grammar), and I've not really seen this answered - though I can't believe it hasn't been discussed. What measures do you have to stop this sort of thing from happening? Otherwise, I can see that, just at the point the project achieves widespread popularity, it could be destroyed.

Anyway, I hope I'm worrying about nothing. Wikipedia looks like a great project - a real community thing that people contribute to be cause they want to, and that could benefit everyone. I hope it continues to grow, with the best articles forming the basis of new Nupedia entries so that can build up as well. Good luck.

I'm speechless with laughter (2.20 / 5) (#78)
by streetlawyer on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 06:07:21 AM EST

The entry for "Atlas Shrugged" consists of over fifty linked HTML files, summarising each chapter, section by section, with characters, symbolism explained, plot, everything.

The entry for "Sense and Sensibility" reads:

Novel by Jane Austen. It was the first of Austen's novels to be published, under the pseudonym "A Lady".

This sort of thing is going to get you laughed at. It may already be too late ... I feel the giggles welling up ...

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever

Wikipedia is currenlty a joke (3.00 / 2) (#81)
by greggman on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 09:37:39 AM EST

Maybe it will turn into something and maybe it won't but currently it's pretty lame. Trying looking up *Nebraska*. Other than having the word *Nebraska* there's not one single entry.

Next we come to this editing business. Sure, they're able to keep out the crap currently because it's a small project. But, if the thing was actually working it would actually be the entire net would it not? Minus a few weblogs. In otherwords, all the arguments you see on slashdot or usenet or kuro5hin about what's true and what's not. Or all the noise etc will eventually be larger than any group of editors can handle.

Why not just go to DMOZ.org or Google.com and search the net for your topic of interest. You more likely to find alot more stuff, alot more interesting stuff and alot more current stuff.

Finally, and maybe this is just a difference of opinion. I was never a Britannica fan. I was a World Book fan. Maybe they serve different purposes but go to the library, grab a copy of the latest World Book Encyclopedia, look up Space or Space Shuttle or any state in the union or nearly any country in the world for example and those articles are the kind of articles that as a kid, and sometimes even as an adult, inspire me to want to read them in detail and/or find out more about the topic. Going to Wikipieda I get a page of text and as is usual for most encyclopedias it's brief. In other words it's not detailed enough for somebody really looking for something and it's not interesting enough for somebody that is looking to find something interesting.


How do you cover unpopular topics? (none / 0) (#82)
by rsidd on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 10:18:12 AM EST

The contributors to this thing are "geeks" of various descriptions: hackers, scientists/academics, and so on. Such people tend to have tastes along certain lines (an earlier post compared the entry for Atlas Shrugged with that for Jane Austen, for example). Similarly, in music you'd probably have good entries for J S Bach, or Dave Brubeck, or the Grateful Dead, but not for Johann Strauss, Glenn Miller or Michael Jackson. (OK, I hate Michael Jackson myself, but he was and is an important figure, surely.)

So I see this as a possible future shortcoming of the project. How do you achieve "balance" when you have pages and pages devoted to the Dead or to Bob Dylan, and hardly anything about, say, George Gershwin (who was arguably the single biggest influence on 20th century music, and responsible for a huge number of jazz standards, but somehow hasn't made it among the geek crowd)? Or if the project does take off to the extent that people from all over and with all kinds of tastes do start contributing, will the quality then go for a toss? I have no answers but it will be interesting to watch.

Playtime over (4.50 / 2) (#84)
by slaytanic killer on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 10:36:41 AM EST

I do not get all the criticisms levelled at the Wikipedia's veracity and completenes. From the Wikipedia site:
Q. When did the Wikipedia start?

A. January 15, 2001. An earlier version of the wiki (including original versions of some of these pages) was briefly hosted on Nupedia.com (first posted January 10). The idea of a Nupedia-sponsored wiki originated out of a conversation Larry Sanger had with Ben Kovitz on the evening of January 2.

A fucking college courseguide takes longer to start from scratch, coordinating all those professors and correcting their woefully inept English. (People would show me how bad their raw course descriptions were -- make friends with these people to get the inside scoop on your profs.) And there are charges levelled aganist a Wikipedia that didn't include more than a blurb about Jane Austen?

TANSTAAFL. I think that's from Milton Friedman, There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You still have to pay for an encyclopedia you deride for being free. And the way to pay is to improve it. It's a progressive tax -- the more you know, the more you can pay. Of course you don't have to, and criticisms are always good, but at some point, we all know why the criticisms are there -- it comes from people who are far better destroyers than creators, whose creative ability is limited to creative destruction, and they just happened to need releasing a little steam in the beginning of the week.

BTW, do this: Find errors in the math section. That's what I happened to read first, and if you can find mistakes, then you'll impress me. I'm sure there's little easter errors to find. Otherwise, continue releasing steam because you had a bad week. No one cares.

What about stuff like scientology? (4.00 / 1) (#85)
by Rainy on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 11:53:43 AM EST

Or Waco, KKK, Microsoft, neo-nazism, etc? Some guy writes up a page on 'em, they come and change it, then someone comes and changes it again, so if I go there and try to look it up it will be a matter of who changed it last?

This is a minor issue, though, otherwise it's very interesting.

I gotta say though it irked me that this was a self-promotion article. I'm reading k5 for a year or so and I've never seen anything as self-promoting as this one. It just don't belong here. What if every author of a project on freshmeat or wherever starts posting an article about how his project is awesome? This turns people off who could otherwise have really liked the idea.
--
Rainy "Collect all zero" Day

Perhaps an article about trend projection? (5.00 / 1) (#90)
by crank42 on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 03:08:57 PM EST

Significantly, Wikipedia's rate of growth has been steadily increasing--in terms of article numbers and quality, traffic to the website, and attracting more highly-qualified contributors. So it seems very reasonable to think that within a few years the project will surpass Britannica in both breadth and depth.

It does not seem reasonable at all, let alone "very reasonable", to understand a trend report this way. Only a fool would suppose that the growth rate of 100% in Linux use which was instantiated the second time someone installed the kernel means that Linux use will grow 100% per day forever. If this is the sort of slack-minded thought behind Wikipedia, I have my doubts that there is anything of value there.

Brittanica is not only good because it is big. If that were the case, there's be no reason not to be satisfied with World Book or something of that sort. When it is good, Brittanica is so partly because it is authoritative; and, it got that way by being selective.

It is true that one can, perhaps, get good, useful and complete encyclopedia-type entries from a fairly small but interested population: Usenet in its early years was a treasure trove of good stuff, and even as late as 1995 (well, maybe that's too late, but insert your favourite date here), groups like alt.folklore.urban were worth reading on a regular basis only for the richness in the topic drift. But many Usenet groups are all but unreadable now, because every thread is crowded with a bunch of half-knowledgeable posts which are as frustrating as they are misleading. (I'll not discuss the flame-wars, which are just a special case of the described phenomenon anyway.)

There is simply no reason to suppose that more is automatically better. With enough participants, it is at least plausible that the Wikipedia contributors will end up spending all their time in editing one another, and none in learning anything that they'll be able to contribute. (That is to say, Wikipedia will, with enough participants, face the problems that Usenet and, later, forums like Slashdot faced.) It's too bad; but, that's why peer review was invented. I think Wikipedia might provide a good first airing for draft copies of Nupedia articles. For much else, I can't see that it will be useful.

More Advertisement Disgust (1.00 / 1) (#93)
by DarkZero on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 04:13:10 PM EST

http://www.kuro5hin.org/user/Larry%20Sanger/stories

Look at that. Two articles, and both of them are blatant advertisements for his own projects, as well as an insult to his perceived competition, The Encyclopedia Britannica. And this is in addition to the posts below about making some of the links into additions to your Hot List, instead of regular links.

This person is obviously a troll that is just here to shamelessly advertise his own projects, and in rather unscrupulous ways, at that. Personally, I will be voting down any future articles of this nature, whoever they may be written by, and I suggest that the rest of you do the same. Do not allow K5 to be used as a forum for people that want to cheaply advertise their site.



Thank you all very much! (none / 0) (#100)
by Larry Sanger on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 06:13:37 PM EST

I want to say thanks very much to everyone who has been writing about Wikipedia here. Until recently, I hadn't been thinking very much about how the public is likely to react to the very notion of Wikipedia. This discussion has really helped me to understand particularly the criticisms that many intelligent people are likely to have. This will help us to explain better what the project is all about and why it has worked (well, insofar as it has worked :-) --evidently there are differences of opinion on that).

Larry Sanger

Ad? Maybe... (none / 0) (#102)
by Canar on Tue Sep 25, 2001 at 11:13:06 PM EST

But I really enjoyed it. If I had seen it in the queue, I would have +1 FPed it. I admire what they're trying to accomplish.

The criticisms tend to be:

  • The articles are wrong. - So, fix them! It doesn't take much time, maybe 30 minutes. Even if you just post a quick little list of what's wrong and what's right, I'm sure someone who's more in tune with the language aspect of things will take that and evolve it into prose.
  • The articles are biased. - Duh. But they're trying.
  • The articles are incomplete/other - It's a work in progress. A lot of Free Software has bugs. So be it.
  • This story was nothing more than an ad. - Yeah, so? See my earlier comments. IMHO, it was an interesting and informative ad that I would have voted up myself.

Analogize the site to a piece of Free Software, and you won't be far off, only with this one, anyone who can type can contribute, as opposed to anyone who can code.

In short, remember that it's BETA documentation people. Treat it as such. Give feed back. Add stuff. Fix stuff.

I guess that's my little rant for the night. Sorry if I seem off-kilter, but a lot of the criticisms are answered if you read (actually read and understood, not just skimmed) the article. I can't remember another Open project that's gotten me interested like this. Maybe I'll post something there, if I find an area of expertise where my knowledge outclasses that which is there already, or an area that needs clarifying, etc. Check it out, maybe you might gain some stimulus to do so too.

-=Canar=-

On a related note (none / 0) (#112)
by Eloquence on Wed Sep 26, 2001 at 12:41:50 PM EST

I should point out that I've posted a proposal for integrating wiki-like technology into Scoop (K5's site engine), albeit with more access control: Wikis for Scoop. Please comment.
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Copyright law is bad: infoAnarchy · Pleasure is good: Origins of Violence
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Wikipedia is wide open. Why is it growing so fast? Why isn't it full of nonsense? | 117 comments (116 topical, 1 editorial, 1 hidden)
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