Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership

[P]
Your kid's an asshole - and guess who's to blame?

By BOredAtWork in Op-Ed
Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 01:57:37 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags) 		Culture

So, you've just been woken up at 2:30am by a knock on the door from the local police department. Your kid was arrested at an all-night rave for selling acid. Or maybe you've just gotten a phone call from the high school principal. Your kid is being expelled for threatening to turn his classmates into swiss cheese. Or maybe you just noticed $150 missing from your purse, and your kid has a brand-new pair of shoes that you just told him you won't buy him. Congratulations, your kid is an asshole.

Guess whose fault this is? Not the news media's, television's or the school system's. Not your neighbor's, the internet's or music industry's. It's YOURS.

I've seen you before. You're the one in the 4 bedroom colonial house with the fairway-like lawn, two german cars in the driveway and the SUV on the street. I've been watching you for years. I've seen you dress your sleeping toddler in his Tommy Hilfiger jumper and seen your wife drop him off at the day care center before dawn. I've seen you wake your four year old at 6:00am sharp, check your voicemail while he groggily shovels down his cereal, and drop him off at his private school's Early Entry program. I've seen you watch your seven year old daugher's first school play while you makes notes on your PDA. I've seen your wife pick the toddler up at 6:00pm on her way home, as you join a teleconference while you wait in traffic to pick your daughter up from swimming lessons. I've seen you get home at 7:30pm and ask your nine year old son how his day at school was as he carries his microwavable pizza and the telephone up to his room and you plug your laptop into the docking station. Now your kids are teenagers. You've got a great career, and great kids, right?

Wrong.

As you're quickly finding out, your kids have grown up, and while you've been there for all of it, you've not been a part of most of it. They don't have your interests, your tastes or your values. And now they won't accept your authority, heed your advice or even thank you for the material posessions you've worked so hard to shower them with.

...

We've read article after article and seen interview after interview where parents say "I had no idea they were going to do this" after their child shoots someone. We've seen politician after politician say with tears in their eyes how society can't afford to lose one more child. We've seen society blame just about everything when children "go bad".

This rant is NOT directed at the families where both parents are working so they can make ends meet. This rant is NOT directed at the single parents who work long hours as miserable jobs so that their kids can go to school in a safe area. This rant is NOT directed at the parents who come home at night too tired to play catch with their children, but sit on the stoop and cheer for them as they play with the neighbors.

This rant is aimed square into the wealthy suburbs. It's aimed at the parents who work 55 hour weeks so that they can buy a new Lincoln. It's aimed at the parents who donate $1500 to a school for new supplies so they can pat themselves on the back and not feel guilty about missing every PTA meeting that year. It's aimed at the parents who buy their 14 year old daughter $300 worth of jewelry so she forgives them for forgetting that her first dance was THIS weekend. It's aimed at the parents who are amazed that the child they take to church every Sunday would start idolizing Marlyn Manson, even though they haven't had a conversation about God or religion with them in years. It's aimed at the parents who can't understand why their 19 year old won't bring their girlfriend home for dinner, when they haven't eaten an evening meal outside the office in three weeks. In a nutshell, this rant is aimed at parents who are neglecting their children in favor of pursuing wealth.

Kids all across the country are committing acts of violence, indecency and outright stupidity that their parents would have never guessed they were capable of, and act absolutely shocked when they see that their children aren't something out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

These parents aren't bad people, don't get me wrong. Irresponsible, definately. Unobservant, perhaps. The question is, how do basically good people do such a great job of screwing up their kids? Again, the answer is MONEY. The endless pursuit of the Green God - the all-mighty dollar. The values they were brought up with - hard work, honesty, family, faith, etc - are quite likely what enabled them to find their way into the upper middle class (trust fund families are a whole separate breed, and won't be addressed in this article). These values have all enabled them to make money hand over fist, so much that they've become blinded by their own success and ambition. The goal for a large number of people seems to have shifted from "comfort for myself and my family" to "absolute luxury for myself and my family." People seem to have shifted the goal of "let my legacy be my children" to "let my legacy be the estate left to my children." The result is parents that spend more time chasing wealth than raising their kids, and a whole generation of children growing up in pricey day care centers, private schools and elite summer camps that never learn who their parents really are or what values they actually hold.

These kids grow up to say "but I was just playing WWF" when they beat another child to death. They grow up to say "but it's just a little bit of acid, it can't hurt you" when they get caught with drugs. They grow up to say "but he pissed me off" when they're asked why they attacked a teacher. They grow up to say "but she's just a whore" when they explain away their girlfriends' abortions. They grow up to say "but I don't care" when they're told it was wrong to shoot a group of classmates.

And their parents always say, without fail, "but they were such a good child! I just don't know what happened!" And THAT is the whole problem.

Sponsors

Voxel dot net
o Managed Hosting
o VoxCAST Content Delivery
o Raw Infrastructure

Login

Poll
My child would never
o Try drugs 2%
o Rape someone 67%
o Denounce God 6%
o Assult someone 4%
o Build a bomb in my basement 19%

Votes: 121
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Also by BOredAtWork

Display: Sort:
Your kid's an asshole - and guess who's to blame? | 282 comments (273 topical, 9 editorial, 0 hidden)
Biggot (3.66 / 18) (#2)
by Betcour on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 09:40:10 AM EST

Well at first I liked your article - at least someone ready to go after this fake lifestyle and those hypocrits who don't really raise their children while thinking they are very good parents.

Then I read this :
It's aimed at the parents who are amazed that the child they take to church every Sunday would start idolizing Marlyn Manson, even though they haven't had a conversation about God or religion with them in years.

So for one if your kids love music you don't approve of, there's nothing to be worried about. For two, you can be an atheist or agnostic and be a very fine person thank you. As for myself I'll feel my kids have gone wrong if they do go to the church.

American Beauty... (3.89 / 19) (#5)
by ScottBrady on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 09:54:47 AM EST

If you want to see an excellent and thought provoking movie about Normal Suburban America watch American Beauty. I have never seen any movie ever capture with such accuracy the many issues and contradictions of a modern upper middle class family. I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen the film already, but in the course of two hours this one work tears off the shinny facade of middle america and shows you what really lies underneath.

I grew up in and around suburbia and feel like I've met almost every character in the movie. I think anyone who's been around suburbanites would agree.

--
Scott Brady
"We didn't lie to you... the truth just changed."
YHBT. YHL. HAND.

Oh, come on (4.04 / 21) (#7)
by jacob on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 10:24:40 AM EST

I hate people from the suburbs too, but I realize it's irrational. Saying things like "This rant is aimed square into the wealthy suburbs. It's aimed at the parents who work 55 hour weeks so that they can buy a new Lincoln ..." is every bit as bigoted a statement as "This rant is aimed squarely into inner-city neighborhoods. It's aimed at parents who are never home because they're too busy smoking crack and prostituting themselves every night ..." except that the former statement stereotypes a better-off group than the latter.

I realize that among city-dwelling young intelligent vaguely liberal people, it's very fashionable to disdain the suburbs. Since I am one of those people, I am supposed to have that same disdain, and I certainly do. But that doesn't mean it's right.



--
"it's not rocket science" right right insofar as rocket science is boring

--Iced_Up
brings up a good point about families (4.50 / 16) (#8)
by gibichung on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 10:29:49 AM EST

Sure, this article is a bit of a rant, but it points out something I think needs more attention than it seems to get today: children need their parents!

My parents were both intelligent, productive people in their youth: if they had chosen the path of so many families like the one the author of this piece talks about, their combined incomes could have given them considerable material wealth. But, they wanted children, and they wanted to raise them right. So just how did they find enough time for their kids? When I was born, my mother quit her job. She stayed home. She spent time with her children. She read us books, She took us places, she'd spend hours answering any question we could imagine to ask. When my father wasn't working, he did the same. And now that their children are growing up, it shows.

Many couples simply choose not to have children. In others, both parents "have to" work to maintain their lifestyles. Still others have no choice but for both parents to work to put food on the table. And an increasing number have kids they simply can't take care of, as single parents.

And you know what? Anyone who has children they can't take care of is selfish. Bringing children into the world without being able to give them everything they need to become productive citizens is selfish, what else can you call it, besides "stupid"?

I'm not saying that better families will solve all the world's problems. Nature sets the limits on people, and many can't overcome them. But without the right kind of nurture, children gifted with potential never live up to it.

-----
"No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it." -- Theodore Roosevelt

You left out (3.95 / 23) (#9)
by Jin Wicked on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 10:33:16 AM EST

"I refuse to breed because I have better things to do with my life," in the poll. Kids are for the people that have the time and energy for them. Obviously the people you're ranting about don't. It's too bad that when someone with a more objective outlook says, "No, I don't want kids," their parents, neighbours and everyone else in creation insists otherwise.

Part of this problem might be because people are so pressured to breed by our baby-obsessed culture. The parents might've "selfishly" pursued their wealth and remained child-free if their mother-in-law hadn't hassled them for years about having a baby until the poor wife thought she needed it to be a whole person.

I personally can't stand to be around kids for longer than a few minutes at a time. Especially the little monsters like the suburban soccer moms drag into my restaurant. They think it's funny that their kid makes a huge mess everywhere within a five-foot radius of their table and disturbs everyone around them babbling and yelling. And I have to tip the bus boy extra because I don't want to clean it up.


This post was probably not written by the real Jin Wicked. Please see user "butter pie" for Jin's actual posts.
delusions. (3.90 / 11) (#10)
by nickco on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 10:42:34 AM EST

If you are going to blame 'wealthy' parents for their children's problems, then you must also blame society. To say that children are the absolute result of how their parents raised them is in my opinion as ridiculous as laying the blame completely on social influence. I don't think we can assume that showering your kids with material possessions is inherently bad. I don't believe anyone has come up with a 'right' way to raise your kid; it's all just opinion. There are, conceivably, good ways and bad ways, but who says the all the good ways are compatible?

I don't think there is a real prevalence of violence in society today, just a perceived one. The media knows what people want, and that is anything shocking.

And now to the tangent..

They grow up to say "but it's just a little bit of acid, it can't hurt you" when they get caught with drugs

PLEASE don't associate taking LSD with murder! I don't know why you assume that only 'bad' people take LSD. Frankly, I think society would be improved if the plurality did it. Before your demonize a drug, or drugs in general as you did in this article, at least consider the actual faults and benefits of the substance. Drugs are not always done to satisfy some escapist. Acid can, to put it bluntly, enlighten the fuck out of you. So, I implore you, do not spread ignorant propaganda!

My kid just won't do what I tell him too. (4.44 / 25) (#12)
by your_desired_username on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 11:05:46 AM EST

My kid just won't do what I tell him too. I don't understand. I gave him our basement, some spare pipes, schematics, radio-controlled igniters - I even paid for the amonium nitrate. But I just can't get him to build that bomb. I've told him he has to keep up with the Jones's kid, who held up a local WalMart, but he just won't listen. He's a lazy, good for nothing juvenile delinquent.

What do your kids get up to? (4.45 / 11) (#14)
by spiralx on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 11:25:08 AM EST

Have a read of "The Lost Children of Rockdale County", a truly disturbing look at the sort of thing that can be happening without parents being aware of it. And the sad thing is, even after all this came out, most parents in the community didn't want to know - it didn't affect them as they saw it.

You're doomed, I'm doomed, we're all doomed for ice cream. - Bob Aboey

The Uncomfortable Truth (4.00 / 10) (#16)
by SPrintF on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 12:08:40 PM EST

Sorry, but the truth is that no one thing or small set of things determines the outcome of the child rearing process. Parenting, peer-group relationships, economics, culture, genetics... these all play their part. A lot of it, maybe 50% of it, is just luck.

And that's what, I think, makes people uncomfortable and inspires their eagerness to find something they can control that will assure them of a positive outcome. They blame money or drugs or the lack of prayer in public schools when their kids turn out wrong, because these are tangible things that they can, in principle, control by imposing the appropriate restrictions on society. But the simple truth is, you just don't have that much control over the results.

There's no guaranteed path to success. You can do everything right and still have your kid turn out to be a monster. All you can do is do your best and hope that things turn out OK.

Sorry, but that's life.
+1 FP, and fix all the spelling. (3.81 / 11) (#19)
by skyhook on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 12:31:36 PM EST

Loads of spelling mistakes that are enough to distract the reader from the message. Title should be "Your Kid" and line two it says "high school principle" instead of principal. While I have not read all of the other comments, I did see several commenting similarly.

As for the message, right on. I realize that k5's audience consists of many nationalities, and that describing this in terms of American cultural shortcomings artificially limits the argument, but I live in the U.S. and can only comment on what I know.

Americans base their societal values, it seems to me, more on Liability than Responsibility. People seem to spend more time looking for some place to lay the blame for the bad things in their life than they do looking inward at their own shortcomings and responsibilities. I have always called this "Victim Culture". I try to make my decisions in life based on being aware of whether my actions constitute an attempt at shifting blame. A doctor diagnosed me with ADD several years ago and I could easily use that as an excuse to fail. (Which I did for a while after the diagnosis) Now I rarely tell people of the diagnosis and try daily to analyze every action by filtering it through awareness. It has mitigated my symptoms greatly.

The argument of Nature vs. Nurture with regards to child behavior can turn contentious. My wife has worked as an elementary school teacher for three years, and her mother has spent thirty years in education working with special needs children. Both would eagerly tell you that Nurture, or parental involvement, seems to be a stronger determining factor in a child's abilities, both cognitively and behaviorally.

My two children, ages five and three, are given love unconditionally, but given punishments appropriately gauged to any bad behavior. Their kindergarten and pre school teachers tell us that both kids behave much better than their classmates, and follow directions much better. Several of their classmates have varying levels of behavioral problems that will only get worse as time goes on. Those kids will fit the description of the stealing money/dealing acid profile you list above.

P.S. - If this comment seems oddly worded or unecessarily verbose, forgive me. For the first time, I have tried to write something in E-Prime, i.e. without the verb "to be". I think I have done well, but if you find something I missed, feel free to flame me :)

What else is new? (3.80 / 10) (#21)
by sventhatcher on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 01:18:44 PM EST

Browsing through the comments I seem to be seeing a lot of "this brings up important issues" and "I'd like to see this discussed".

Now there's no doubt that this is a well written piece and I enjoyed reading it (thusly I voted it +1), but this isn't a particularly new angle on the issue of parenting (Eminem anyone?), nor do I think it lends itself much to discussion. It's hard to debate the ideas it expresses.

Obviously kids need the love and attention of their parents.

Obviously money isn't an adequate replacement for said love and attention.

Obviously any parents that miss their children's lives preparing for thier future is making a grave miscalculation.



Root causes... (2.62 / 8) (#26)
by Zeram on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 02:02:26 PM EST

Well perhaps instead of condemning the yuppie scum proxy parents we should look at why they do it. Because you know when they were young mommy missed their dance rehearsal, and that impacted them deeply!
<----^---->
Like Anime? In the Philly metro area? Welcome to the machine...
Taxes, Too (2.60 / 10) (#28)
by SEWilco on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 02:09:56 PM EST

Let's not forget both parents having to work so they can pay for the house, the car, and the one-fifth of their income which their governments take.

Hmmm. (3.37 / 8) (#31)
by kevsan on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 02:35:44 PM EST

I'm starting to believe, judging from the last two front page stories, that k5 is developing an ass fetish.

-K
Amen! (3.40 / 5) (#37)
by onyxruby on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 03:12:27 PM EST

I wish I had seen this in the queue to give it a +1 FP, despite all the spelling errors. Whilst I certainly disagree with you that listening to Marilyn Manson or getting an aborton is neccasarily bad, I agree with every other thing you wrote. It all goes to the central tenant of being responsible. There is only one way to get time to spend with your kids, and that is to make time. Most kids would rather have their parents time than their money anyways. Save those that have been taught by their parents that money is more valuable than their time. Those are the ones that grow up and become yuppies.

Amen.

The moon is covered with the results of astronomical odds.

Hear hear! (3.14 / 7) (#40)
by joegee on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 03:18:15 PM EST

I concur with another commentor that this is rather wasted appearing on K5, but I agree 100% with your sentiments. I gain hope for future kids from the fact that I am beginning to see these attitudes appearing in other forums.

Perhaps the growing recognition of the responsibilities of parenthood is something positive. Perhaps someone reading this will put a bit more thought into planning their family, and put off bringing a new life into the world until they are ready to responsibly make the commitment it requires. :)

On an aside, I gave you +1 to section, but I am glad to see this at the top of the FP (and not just cuz I was tired of that "Anus Surgery" thing. :) )

<sig>I always learn something on K5, sometimes in spite of myself.</sig>
Yeah, you're wrong. (3.37 / 16) (#43)
by Defect on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 03:34:56 PM EST

Yeah, let's blame the successful people of the world.

I've got news for you, you're not going to be able to look at what a person drives to determine whether or not their kid's a fucking moron. The answer is not money. There's blame to be placed everywhere, and that is where the problem lies, people are trying to blanket blame the nearest associated groups. It's been going on forever, people want answers and they want them right away, if authorities in the matter can place blame, it pleases the masses as now they have something they can look out for. Does it help any? Of course not. Nothing will help and everyone knows it, whether they admit it to themselves or not.

It's common fucking sense that blaming one specific product or aspect of society for one specific event does no good. If listening to marylin manson and playing doom causes kids to kick dogs and try to level a high school then why the hell doesn't it happen for everyone? Because it wasn't what caused it.

The only thing you can blame the parent of a dipshit for is being a complete fucking idiot. It's a problem with humans; we, as a whole, are incredibly stupid. This wasn't a problem back some tens of thousands of years ago, when everything was simple, where the only thing you needed to figure out for the day was which wooly fucking mammoth would provide the most meat. But ever since the god damned wheel was invented, we've been quickly creating a society where only a very small amount of people can comprehend anywhere near a reasonable bit of it. It's too complicated for most people. Don't bother trying to blame anything on anyone. If you really want to blame a single person, he died a long time ago, unfortunately just after he told the rest of his tribe that round objects roll and can be used to transport things.

We're fucking monkeys for christ's sake, we weren't fit to come down from the trees, it's pretty obvious isn't it?

But since most people won't take this as a good excuse, just keep in mind the most influencial 3 words you can ever tell your child are: "You stupid shit."

Defect, just as retarded as everyone else
defect - jso - joseth || a link
I wonder... (3.58 / 12) (#47)
by inpHilltr8r on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 04:18:00 PM EST

...how many of you actually have kids?

...and how many of those of you that successfully breed, will raise them any better than the suburbanites you blast away at?



funny little flyer (2.41 / 12) (#48)
by dr k on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 04:19:50 PM EST

Usually when I find one of these funny little flyers, they have been left on a bathroom counter, or on a bus bench, or (my favorite) perched on top of books in the bookstore.

But unlike those funny flyers, this one doesn't have a bizarre Christian message, doesn't tell me how Jesus Christ will save me. So I am at a loss, I don't have a fucking clue what the purpose of this story is.

But it does fit in nicely with the "front page ass reference" theme we have going.
Destroy all trusted users!

100% dead on accuracy (4.85 / 14) (#51)
by Sheepdot on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 04:53:02 PM EST

However I *would* also include families of more than one child where the parents know full well they can barely care for just one.

I grew up with 3 siblings. If my parents had had one more child it would have been one too many for them, and they knew it. Four was nearly too much.

I myself cannot and will not care for a single child, therefore I will remain childless throughout my life. It is the ability to come to terms with what you can handle that determine if you as a parent can legitimately take responsibility for another life.

It is high-time we place the blame for school-shootings, crime, and other stuff where it belongs, on the parents that failed to raise their children.

And please don't say, "You have no idea what it is like to raise a child". You're right, but I also *know* that I have know idea, and don't step into areas where I am unqualified to be and think I have everything under consideration.

Word of advice: If you are the kind of person that always like to have the newest gadgets and will work an extra 15 hours a week to get them, you are interested in toys and not children. So do the other parents of the world a favor and don't have any, so they don't end up killing someone else's.

Note: School shootings are not soley a result of bad parenting. The sheer size of public schools also is a consideration. If this country is to have mandatory public education, then high school size need not exceed the size of some small towns. (ie. 5,000)


Then why is crime INCREDIBLY low right now? (4.41 / 12) (#56)
by Anatta on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 05:24:13 PM EST

Kids all across the country are committing acts of violence, indecency and outright stupidity that their parents would have never guessed they were capable of, and act absolutely shocked when they see that their children aren't something out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

Jeeez. Though the media likes to show these rare, rare examples of kids who have gone wrong, and then throw Jerry Falwell and Gloria Allrad up there to blather on about what happened that caused them to become hellspawn, the fact is that crime in the US is incredibly low, and until the economic slowdown, it was constantly falling. We shall see if that continues if and when the economy picks back up.

Yes, we have a whole lot of people in prison, and I agree with the writer who said the LSD is not the problem, it's drug laws that limit liberty. Ending the drug war would be the single most progressive thing the US goverment could do for its citizens...

Anyway, before you attack the suburbanites who drive SUVs that are larger than your accepted size limit (how dare they make a decision without consulting you!), perhaps you should look at US Crime statistics and read them over.

Most crime is committed due to economic status. Whether or not you think that the SUV-driving families in the burbs are screwing up their kids, the facts don't hold up. For example, murder rates are the lowest they've been since 1968. This fact might suggest (horrors) that the suburbanines are doing a fabulous job raising their kids.

You, and it seems many on Kuro5hin, have fallen for this phenomena. Strangely I hear a lot of talk here about how the media distorts the truth. I'm shocked that so many fell for the media's line this time.
My Music

So you think money is the root of all evil? (4.00 / 4) (#62)
by maxwell on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 06:24:19 PM EST

Have you ever asked what is the root of money?

he's growing up to be just like his father (3.33 / 3) (#70)
by Quietti on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 07:26:51 PM EST

This whole thread brings to mind the overall issues of parenting, as perceived by this singer I once played with. We were coming back from a rehearsal and she was commenting how her son was turning into somthing that reminded her of everything that was wrong about her ex-husband (the boy's father).

Said this other bandmember to her:

Now, isn't that something, Julia?! Didn't you say you raised this kid on your own? What does this say about your parenting abilities? Seems to me that if your son is turning into a macho treating women as object, then you have no one but yourself to blame, since your ex wasn't here to influence the boy's upbringing.


--
The whole point of civilization is to reduce how much the average person has to think. - Stef Murky
What is the single greates influence on children? (3.27 / 11) (#73)
by delmoi on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 07:40:48 PM EST

Their friends. Not their parents, their friends.

Whether you like it or not, societal values and trends are not passed from parents to children, but rather from older children to younger children. (One of the most striking examples of this were the daughters or 'liberated' women in the 1970s who still believed that their place was in the home, etc) Maybe this piece of knowledge isn't germane to your discussion, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway.

If I'd seen this story in the queue, I would have voted it down. It's crap. It's worse then crap. It's sensationalist crap. It's crap because it flies in the face of statically reality. School shootings are so rare that trying to equate your pet-peeve with them is nothing short of ludicrous. Kids with bad parents shoot people, kids with good parents shoot people. But mostly, kids with poor parents shoot people, at least when you factor in all youth violence, not just the rare school shooting.

Please, this piece has zero content. Its nothing more then sensational, emotional, garbage with no factual support whatsoever. And not only does it not have any support, it actually flies in the face of reality.

I'll close this rant with one of my favorite sayings:

"Show me some numbers, or shut the fuck up."
--
"'argumentation' is not a word, idiot." -- thelizman
That's 1/2 of the problem... (3.75 / 8) (#76)
by Dwonis on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 07:53:39 PM EST

The other half is the fact that many parents grew up in the 60s (or their parents did), and they have the notion that disciplining their children is wrong. From day 1, these children learn that they are not accountable for their actions. And guess who has the highest occurrences of these opinions? Wealthy people in rich suburbs.

These are the people that tell us that it's "uncivilized" to spank our children, and that blame the teacher/principal/neighbour/T.V./video games when their children get into trouble. These people are obsessed with their own individual rights over the rights of the individual rights of others around them, and think that they should be left to do whatever they please.

We wouldn't train animals this way, but we allow children (ours or otherwise) to be "trained" this way. If anything kills the human race in the next century, it will be these non-accountability-minded people obtaining high positions on government, and starting a biological war.

It's understandable that people like to blame money, but it's actually the overly-leftist thinking and the abandonment of pragmatism that is to blame.
Parental neglect versus parental encouragement. (4.00 / 9) (#87)
by Apuleius on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 09:14:09 PM EST

Sometimes asshole parents raise asshole kids. Look at this Salon article. Ask yourselves: if your son exercised his Constitutional rights to say vicious things about a girl in his school, would you a. hire a lawyer to ensure his rights are unmolested by his principal, or b. make his life miserable?

I would choose b. Such a son of mine would lose his allowance, his car (if he had one), his computer, his free time, and would have to live in fear of either transfer to military academy or knowing that I would not fund his college stay. But some parents obviously think differently.




There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
Not My Fault (4.41 / 12) (#91)
by Merk00 on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 10:20:03 PM EST

I don't think the real reason there's an attempt to blame everything except parents for bad children because parent's aren't willing to accept that they're bad parents, but instead that the parents are unwilling to accept any sort of blame. There has been a distinct lack of accountability and responsibility from the baby boomers on. After the reject of responsibility during the 1960's, it was never regained. Pop psychology has given us any of a number of things to blame our actions on, from ADD to depression (and yes, they do exist just not nearly in the proportions that they've been diagnosed). In criminal court cases, being from a fractured home has been a mitigating factor. Education has stressed the self-esteem of a child and not what the child has accomplished. Society is centered on finding something besides ourselves to blame. We refuse to take responsiblity and we refuse to show children about responsiblity. And that's where the problem lies.

------
"At FIRST we see a world where science and technology are celebrated, where kids think science is cool and dream of becoming science and technology heroes."
- FIRST Mission

Nothing new... (3.62 / 8) (#95)
by dnos on Sat Jul 14, 2001 at 10:40:37 PM EST

Why should this be such a shock? People know this. It's been happening for ages (I wonder if the aristocrats had asshole kids?...) But, I don't see how you can say everything (violence and whatnot) is the parents fault.

Imo, you are just hastily generalizing a large percent of the US population...ntm you are basing this on basically nothing. How can you say parents should be blamed for everything? (Maybe because your friend grew up with some of these parents and he turned out to be bad?) Do kids not learn anything at school (besides arithmetic, etc)? Do they not learn anything from TV? Video games? Music?

Every person (child) is different. You can take two kids raise them in the same environment and they will be different. You didn't even mention the fact that most kids that grow up in these environments (parents) will come out OK. ("OK" as in not commiting random acts of violence)

You can take this rant, replace the suburbian parents/household scenario with whatever you want and say the same thing and it (would seem) to make sense.

You are pointing the fingers just as much as the people pointing the fingers at the video game makers, music makers, etc. Try a different perspective, but you'd still be wrong...there is no ONE thing you can blame the "curruption" of kids on. (maybe society, but isn't that including basically everything?)

Totally agree (4.63 / 11) (#105)
by Draginol on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 12:43:30 AM EST

I happen to really agree with this post. The problem with so many Americans these days is that they are consumed with the concept of acquiring material things. They want to acquire "Stuff" even if its at the expense of their children.

How many times have you heard someone complain how in the "good old days" only 1 parent "needed" to work to make "ends meet" yet today both are required. Often times, both parents go to work purely to maintain a standard that goes well beyond making ends meet.

In 1955, the average house size for a family of 4 was 1200 square foot. Today it's 2400 square foot -- twice as big. Typical family of 4 has 2 cars until the teenager can drive and then it goes up to 3 cars.

Then we get into how we "need" cable TV, vacations, summer camping, lots of gifts at Christmas, the latest electronic gadgets, etc. All this comes at a price -- our children.

Rather than putting our priority the human beings we *chose* to bring into this world, we put our priority into instant gratification and accumulating wealth.

And it's a real shame because the results are becoming increasingly obvious -- bad teens who are rudderless. I have neighbors whose teenaged children don't know what to do with themselves. They've never had to work for anything in their lives and are rudderless as they decide what to do for themselves. Our highschools are filled with teens who barely know their parents, have no concept of intimacy or feeling of closeness with their parents.

We naturally blame the media or video games or the Internet or the teachers because heck, we've been avoiding our parental responsibilties so long that why stop now? It's much easier to blame someone else anyway.

As a culture, we need to decide what our priorities are. Are kids essentially enhanced pets or are they an integral part of our lives?

Two ways to look at the world. (3.00 / 7) (#108)
by driftingwalrus on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 01:40:42 AM EST

The way I see it, much of this is rooted in the way people beleive the world works. There are realms of thought:

Evolution - Everything developed by accident, and therefore can and should be improved upon by intelligent man. Intelligent design without fail produces better systems than randomness. All you have to do to prove that conjecture is compare a clock to a block of iron ore. It took intelligence maybe a week to make the clock, evolution has had billions of years to turn that iron ore into a clock and still hasn't managed.

God - God created everything, and God being the supreme being, He employed some durned good engineering and we shouldn't meddle with things we don't understand.


Under the former beleif, parents are unnecessary vestiges of the past, much as certain organs in the body have been considered useless throwbacks.
Under the former belief, you also find NPK chemistry and bioengineering - systems which are destroying farmers and ravaging the ecosystem.

Under the latter beleif, children have parents for a good reason. Neglecting attention to children is disastrous as they where designed with a built-in need for guidance.
Also under the latter beleif, you find organic farming systems. These methods exploit habits that have been built into animals for the farmer's benefit, and are very lucrative. For example, pigs, as a matter of course, root. Think rototiller. Chickens eat bugs and grass - pesticide and herbicide that pays YOU to use it. If you don't beleive me that farming can be lucrative, read the book "You Can Farm", it's very educational.


"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
-1 Redundant (3.90 / 10) (#110)
by MSBob on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 01:56:14 AM EST

Because "American Beauty" dealt with the subject in a better and more exhaustive way. I hope you've seen the movie. If not go and rent it. It's the quintessence of all that's wrong with the USA's middle class.
I don't mind paying taxes, they buy me civilization.
misguided (4.00 / 1) (#111)
by jeziika on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 02:20:50 AM EST

I realise that there is no substitute for loving parents, whom actively participate in their child's life and upbringing, of course not. But before everone goes pointing the finger at the wealthy suburbanites (from whom I personally recoil with horror), maybe they should look at why they spend so much time in the office as opposed to the sandpit with their kiddies. The cry of, "I don't understand what happened to them", is often the true sentiment of the wealthy, middle class parents of wayward children, because in their eyes they HAVE been doing what they consider best for their children. They have been providing them with the luxuries, the material goods that they themselves may never have had. They are purchasing the best education for them, giving them all the extra classes that will make sure little Jimmy and Sally have a well rounded education, so that they will be strong in both body and mind. In the parents' eyes they are doing their best for their children.They know that it's a competitive world out their and they want their children to be as well equipped (in the educational, material sense) for it as they can be. They want "the best for them" and if they have to spend long hours working for it, well that is the price they have to pay. Most parents do want the best for their kids, and unfortunately for most people the 'best' means financial success. They want their children to be even more successful then they themselves are. They don't want to see them struggle financially, if possible they want them to live in a high level of comfort. Can this mindset be a cause of a child's emotional and moral underdevelopement? Of course. Does it display a pathetic picture of society and it's values? Once again, of course. But in the eyes of a bewildered parent this is not seen, all they think is, "I tried my hardest. What happened?" Before turning to point the finger of blame at someone else.

Christ.. (1.68 / 19) (#113)
by xmutex on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 02:34:52 AM EST

Please post some more clueless knee-jerk stories to the frontpage of Kuro5hin so everyone can finally rest assured that the K5 community is 95%drivel.

This sort of shit is worth my $5 a month? Riiight.

bullet the blue sky
It's not just a-hole parents who raise a-hole kids (4.00 / 2) (#114)
by joegee on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 02:40:08 AM EST

(a-hole read asshole -- I didn't have room in the comment title. This is something I feel strongly about, my other comments are scattered here and there.)

I do not see this as an issue of class or financial status.

I suspect there are many nice, well-intentioned, lower, middle, and upper class parents who raise "asshole kids" too, by not setting limits, by not providing consistency, by granting independence instead of giving guidance, by not giving and receiving respect, and by being too removed from their child's everyday life.

At least in America we seem to have forgotten that parenting is not a spectator sport. Kids demand attention -- and one way or another, sooner or later, they'll get it. If you are attentive; if you teach things like respect, honesty, and responsibility by example; if you set rules and respectfully demand compliance; if you are consistent and loving; I suspect your child will have quite a boost to help them walk the right path through the maze of school, peers, and any other challenges they may face.

I believe there is considerable responsibility in being a good parent. But then again, as others have pointed out, who the hell am I? :)

<sig>I always learn something on K5, sometimes in spite of myself.</sig>
Blame. (4.20 / 5) (#117)
by mindstrm on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 07:30:40 AM EST

Yes, parents in north america tend to blame everyone but themselves for their kids behavior.

Well guess what? Sure.. it's partially their fault.
It's ALSO society at large; did your kid sell acid at the rave because you made him do it? Taught him how? I doubt it. He did it because he thought it was cool to do - wanted to make some money - probably both. Perfectly understandable.

If my kid (god forbid I ever have one) sells acid at a rave, I'll probably not get mad at him; I'll just explain how it's basically illegal, and you don't want legal troubles down the road; you choose your legal battles carefully.



Woah, too many reactionary statements imho... (4.36 / 11) (#118)
by Mr Obsidian on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 07:37:17 AM EST

It seems to me that this view of suburbian parents is another popular myth. Just as the myth of the black, welfare mom, the concept of bad parenting being more prevelant in white suburbia is misguided. Bad parenting exists in all socio-economic realms. How many people can think of a rich spoiled brat? Or a middle class kid who doesn't have a clue about self identity? Or a poor kid who steals? Now how about mixing these around. They all apply. Trying to point the finger on one group defeats any useful discussion about what is "bad" parenting.

The second misconception that I see mentioned in this forum is that of "liberal" parenting being seen as negative. It seems that with the changing of the guard (generations) different opinions on child rearing govern society, generally. The baby boomers came into a period where it was accepted to step back and allow your kids personal developement, while newer (or older, its all a cycle) ideas are now suggesting that one should be a guide and overseer of your kid's developement. I personally can see value in both, but I think to demonize either is to miss many points.

I think the main benefit of a liberal approach is that it allows your child to make more decisions about their views and beliefs, which some would say is good, others bad. I personally believe parents should let their children find their own truths.

The benefits of a more conservative approach is that it would facilitate a better chance of your personal value system being passed to your child. The Amish are a classic example of this, around 70% (If I can recall correctly, I may be off, but its much higher than any other group) of their children return to their communities after adolescence. (Amish communities represent Amish values, since it is harder to participate in their society without holding their values than it is in the American society.)

I personally believe that the only type of "bad" parenting is when we try to "protect the children" by removing any notion of responsibility from their lives. This means that they should be encouraged to be educated, understanding, and capable of making choices based on either their internal convictions or their education. I think its entirely stupid to think that a child is magically an adult at age 18 or when they go off to college. A parent can never watch over their kid 100% of the time, nor should they, and as a consequence of this, the child should have some preparation for the real world. I know these are generalized statements, and if anyone would like to ask me to apply this to a specific topic (drug abuse, sex, etc) then please post a reply.

Its 7:45am here, and I have been up all night. I can't promise clarity, grammar, or spelling, but I ask you bare with me. :)

Mr.O
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " Martin Luther King, Jr.
From One to the Next (4.00 / 2) (#124)
by Crashnbur on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 11:57:29 AM EST

If it's not the radio, it's the TV. If it's not the TV, it's the friends down the street. If it's not the friends down the street, it's... mommy and daddy?

Now I certainly agree that parents are more largely to blame than any form of the media or the friends or other influences, but we're still playing the game of shifting the blame to the source most at fault. One doesn't stop to consider that sometimes, just sometimes, those other sources could actually have a large enough impact that they could indeed be at fault.

Sure, the parents should be able to invoke their thoughts and beliefs into their children and thereby indirectly control their children's thoughts and actions. But we all know that we, as humans, are capable of thinking on our own, and sometimes we do things just because we know someone doesn't want us to. Humans seek freedom by nature, and sometimes that means flaunting disobedience in the face of authority.

Not saying you're wrong, but I'm not saying those blaming the media are wrong either. There are many more negative influences that we probably fail to consider as we should. I'm just saying that pointing out a cause does nothing. Stop blaming the world around your kids and teach your kids. Then maybe, just maybe, the world that they'll dominate in twenty years won't be so bad.

(Oh, and you misspelled "definitely".)

crash.neotope.com
no subject (4.20 / 5) (#135)
by behzad on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 03:32:48 PM EST

This is a huge topic, as is everything else regarding man, and really can not be blamed on one issue. Greed does play a part in the dimise of the middle class american family, but so does nearly everything else. Believe it or not, our culture has been influenced through many things, including the experimentations of our parents and friends, the tragedies we witness daily, the media, and everything else! If i were to excrete my humanly dirived flatuance, it would affect the world as much as if I were to hold it in. How can you comprehend that our culture has not been influenced by the media? Is it not the Television, or even the Computer you plug your brain into your entire recollectable existance? We are a society brought up by a bunch of baby boomers who have not thought things out. We have lost our traditions, respect and basic human guidelines along the way. This is a gargantuan subject which can not, and should not be blamed on one thing or a few things. Man is a very complex subject, and trying to understand exactly what makes man tick will drive man insane. What might help us in the future is to learn from the past.

Stop having children! (2.75 / 8) (#136)
by HardwareLust on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 03:39:57 PM EST

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've met more than my fill of asshole kids. I certainly don't feel the need to add one or two more to the mix.

I think the vast majority of these asshole kids are/were just accidents. The parents foist them off onto daycare and then public school to keep them semi-occupied until they can leave the house (or kick them out) at 18 so they can go and make some more "accidental assholes". The cycle then continues...

ATTENTION PARENTS: Yes, if *your* kid is an asshole, then it's *your* fault. Period. If he or she smokes dope, steals, rapes, vandalizes, kills, etc., then you are personally responsible. Neither you nor your children are victims of 'violent video games' or anything else other than *you* fucking up the parenting process. Now deal with that and shut the fsck up!<P/>


If you disagree, POST, don't moderate!

Think i've figured it out... (4.63 / 11) (#137)
by Elendale on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 03:46:28 PM EST

Or at least have something i haven't seen much: its not greed, not the green god (i'm going to remember that one...) or anything else: its the god of convenience that people worship. Its easier for these parents to just blow $300 than actually deal with a sad child, its easier to ignore your kids continued infatuation with destruction than to deal with it. Its also easier to say "how did this ever happen to me" and then go straight from denial into grief and blame-placing. Not that i'm exactly guilt-free here as well, but i'm starting to wonder if this convenience god is causing some problems...

-Elendale
---

When free speech is outlawed, only criminals will complain.
The Nurture Assumption ... (4.25 / 12) (#148)
by richieb on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 09:29:59 PM EST

You really should read the book called "The Nurture Assumption". It's subtitle is Why children turn out the way they do. Parents matter less and peers matter more. See here.

I'm afraid that you are falling for the pop-psychology myth of parents that somehow "spoil" their children. The situation is much more complicated with many factors at play, some that are not under anyones control.

Kids all across the country are committing acts of violence, indecency and outright stupidity that their parents would have never guessed they were capable of, and act absolutely shocked when they see that their children aren't something out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

Actually, according to FBI statitics the violence among youg people has been steadily going down. There have been several articles in this on the CNN web site. Check them out.

Are you a parent?

...richie


It is a good day to code.

How many parents are there here? (4.00 / 7) (#149)
by theboz on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 09:39:51 PM EST

A lot of people here are giving their "expert" opinions on things. I see people who support neglecting children because they think they are able to fend for themselves, others who think children are the spawn of Satan, and many other opinions that have no basis on reality or experience.

Sure, I have my opinions too. I've even helped with two younger sisters and one younger brother, however that isn't enough to make me an expert on children. I have not studied child psychology so I can't really comment on the best way to raise a child, and I know that everyone is different so all children require different approaches.

Most of the opinions here are not based on anything but fantasy and imagination. I think I had a point to this post that got lost, but basically it's a shame to read this article and all the posts involved. It's not that everyone is completely wrong, but just that the valid points get lost in an overflow of bullshit. I'm keeping my "expert" opinions from being posted on this article because I admit I don't know much about being a parent. If any of you non-parents out there have intelligence you would do the same. You're all making yourselves look like a bunch of moronic jerks.

Stuff.

Not the case at all. (1.50 / 2) (#150)
by Apuleius on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 09:54:49 PM EST

I would bring up a kid who would know better than to shame his surname by acting like a cad. Trashing a girl's name on the Net will cause a son of mine to be demoted from son to alleged son.


There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called college. (The South Park chef)
Hmm... (4.40 / 10) (#152)
by trhurler on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 10:17:26 PM EST

I think maybe YOU grew up a bit too much in the burbs. About a third of the stuff you think is so horrible is not, and your notion of who the parents are whose kids are showing up on TV is mistaken; usually, they're not wealthy, though often they are suburbanites. They usually live in the older burbs with the smaller houses and the more run down cars on the street; if they've got SUVs, they're the cheapo knockoffs of the ones everyone actually wants.

Kids who grow up wealthy or even close to it are different; they might be irresponsible and even reckless, and there's always that one in a graduating class who goes on to rape some girl in college, but most of them are just obnoxious - the truth is, they've lived such sheltered lives that when they hang out with the people they meet after high school, they're terrified. They have no idea what this "real world" is or how to act in it, and it shows. Then, they go on to be just like mom and dad - wealthy, ignorant of most of the world around them, and happy that way. Good for them. Nobody else has to care.

Of course, all of this is crass stereotyping, but at least my choices for one-size-fits-all are typical; I don't know where you've seen "son of upper middle class parents shoots 30 people" in the headlines, but I certainly haven't.

I'm going to reserve my wrath for a very, very unpopular target. You know those poor parents who are busting their asses that you specifically didn't aim your rant at? Well, why the fuck do they have kids they can't even support? If they got divorced and now they're screwed but they were ok before, they're excused, but all you other fuckers out there, what the hell were you thinking? YOU are the goddamned problem. YOUR kids are ones whose parentally motivated inferiority complexes lead them to become bullies, petty criminals, and general underachievers. It isn't politically correct to say it, but anyone who went to a public school knows it is true, if only he'll look back critically upon the experience. What the hell are you doing? Do you think you have some inherent right to fuck up a kid's life and possibly other peoples' too? In the literal sense you do, of course, but that's the same sense in which I have a right to ignore you while you bleed to death in the street in front of my house after the son of some other fucker just like you stabs your dumb ass and steals your wallet. Pathetic shitheads.

The best part is, you're the same assholes having eight kids, instead of some reasonable number. Go figure.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie
But what if you're an asshole parent? (4.00 / 3) (#153)
by Wondertoad on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 10:49:42 PM EST

Now, firstly, the original story was a pathetic load of stereotypes, willful misunderstanding, fantasy, and tv/movie characterization. Come on, read it again, with that in mind. It's like those eye-trick pictures; once you see it, it's obvious.

Children these days are actually over-supervised and over-protected, and the problem is getting worse, not better. The result in about twenty years will be a new generation unable to think for itself. A generation who will never have participated in a sport that wasn't "organized"; who are taught to appreciate and enjoy the luxury of 24-hour camera supervision while in public; who will repeat things in lockstep, absolutely convinced of facts no matter whether true or false.

But back to the parents. Take a look at the adults age 30+ in your world. Most of those people have procreated. Are these the people you want to devote their entire lives to their children? Is that what you were hoping might take root? Because when you look around, and to paraphrase Dennis Miller, you can scarecely believe what they threw on to go outside today -- why would you want their kids chained to THAT?


Hmmm ... stereotypes?? (4.14 / 7) (#154)
by MoxFulder on Sun Jul 15, 2001 at 11:01:32 PM EST

My best friend in high school seemed to fit your profile pretty well. He had two cars of his own, a Caddy and a Sebring convertible, his dad was the CEO of a small tech company, he played golf, had a cabin on Lake Michigan, etc. etc.

But he was a real great guy and in most ways not spoiled at all. Him and his dad did all the repairs on their house and cars himself and his parents were actually real tight-fisted about giving him money.

His parents apparently taught him to think for himself a little too much cause he's now a pretty liberal guy, which does not make his Republican parents too happy ...

So I don't think all these kids of moderately wealthy parents turn out bad. Sure, there were others at our school who were total assholes, but they seemed to fall practically everywhere across the spectrum, just like the rest of us.

"If good things lasted forever, would we realize how special they are?"
--Calvin and Hobbes


Tunnel Vision (4.00 / 3) (#163)
by Shampoo369 on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 01:31:37 AM EST

I sympathize with your notion of the problem; there is nothing more tragic than a pair of irresponsible money-minded people with kids. And ultimately society have to shoulder the actions of these handicapped children.

I have to disagree, however, that the sole contributers of these juvenile deliquents are the money-bags of the society; nor do I think that their method of "screwing up" children is more deserving of criticism. I think those monetarily endowed children constitute only, more or less, 1/3 of the miscreant population--with the remaining supplied by middle-class as well as the lower class of our community.

Of course as Tax paying citizens, we're all entitled to our share of finger-pointing when things go wrong, but perhaps that can take place in a less biased and misinformed way...

"If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it -- Now quiet, they're about to announce the lottery numbers!"
  --Homer
The Nature of Causality (4.41 / 12) (#167)
by sventhatcher on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 02:23:41 AM EST

It's a tribute to monotheistic religions everywhere that our society seems to be increasingly obsessed with finding the "cause" of all our social problems when in fact no such thing exists.

The process by which a person is formed into whoever they are is not one that lends itself to being described in the cause-effect system, but rather is a complex web that's formed by the combination of social interaction, neurochemical levels, and slices of psychological conditioning. It's a web that has no place for broad generalizations. It's inarguable that certain things will have a negative effect (physical abuse for instance), but given circumstances the nature of that effect.

Asking "Why do kids go bad?" is almost as pointless as asking "Why do bad things happen to good people?".

People from all demographics and all family situations and all socio-economic demographics manage to turn out to be no good shits. At best, you're just tackling a small percentage of the problem even if you do get the upper-middle class suburbanites to love their kids more than their money.

It isn't necessary to resort to misdirection to kill the idea that violence in the media is directly linked to violent behavior.

The media doesn't brainwash us. We're not mindless slaves under their control. The media can be persuasive, but it cannot and will not lead someone into doing something which they were not already open to the possibility of doing. The reason that I won't go out and shoot someone for real no matter how many games of the new realistic violent shooter is that I can tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

If someone can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality, they've likely got a defective brain and someone should give them the latest chemical patch to help them fix it.

that's right; nothing is the fault of the media (3.00 / 6) (#169)
by streetlawyer on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 03:41:23 AM EST

Surprisingly enough, the media is the one industry in the world that produces no industrial pollution.

Although the entire financial basis of the media industry is that it is capable of conveying powerful messages, it in fact is not.

It is, quite clearly, the responsibility of any parent to spend his entire time monitoring the output of the media to ensure that it is suitable for his child; this activity is much more efficiently carried out on a household-by-household basis. Any memories of a Golden Age when media companies exercised some restraint, or thought about the social consequences of their programming, are clearly illusory.

America, by the way, has the best television in the world.

Strangely counterintuitive ideas ... I wonder why they are so prevalent ... could it be that people heard about them in the media?

--
Just because things have been nonergodic so far, doesn't mean that they'll be nonergodic forever

I use up a lot of my time (4.50 / 6) (#180)
by Orion Blastar on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 09:41:52 AM EST

to spend watching my son. My father didn't spend a lot of time with me, but he did spend some time. According to my mother, my father never changed a diaper, etc, that she did all the hard work. I've changed my share of diapers for my son. In any case, I am trying real hard to teach him not to be a bully or *sshole when he grows up. It seems he acts bad when around one of his cousins, but when he is alone or with other kids, he acts a lot better. I am suspecting that peer pressure or acting like one of your peers may play a role in this misbehaving thing. If your peers misbehave, so will you. That is why bullies always have toadies, because the toadies want to act just like the bully.

I think that parents that ignore their children may be to blame, but also our society, the way schools are run, the peers, the teachers, authority figures (got to set the good examples, or else children may start acting like the bad examples) are all to blame as well as the parents.
*** Anonymized by intolerant editors at K5 and also IWETHEY who are biased against the mentally ill ***

Is is really our fault? (3.33 / 3) (#182)
by TJ Riggins on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 10:10:02 AM EST

This rant seems more to be one out of jealousy. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's not. I never was an asshole because my parents weren't there for me, I was an asshole growing up because of the people I hung around with. We did dumb shit. Really dumb shit. You know what? It was fun, and if I was hanging around with the straight laced kids I wouldn't have been an asshole either.

A good article on this subject. (4.25 / 4) (#185)
by interguru on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 10:30:46 AM EST

Mary Eberstadt in Policy Review has written a good article on this subject.

She makes many good points, but the one I founc them most fastinating is that over the years work has become pleasanter ( Less physical labor, workers are treated better, etc) to the point where it becomes a pleasant refuge from the messiness of dealing with kids.

"God and religion"????????? (3.92 / 13) (#188)
by Dr G on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 10:44:01 AM EST

What has God and Religion have to do with this? As far as I can see, it was "God and Religion" that imposed a fear oriented moral system, based on superstition, that made it so easy to break laws and to justify amoral behavior. First of all, if the only reason NOT to do something is an old fart of a father god casting lightening bolts from a thunder cloud, the mythology of a "hell" where we will all burn if we're not good little boys and girls, then the battle is lost. Most intelligent kids do not believe that fear-mongering bullshit. Instead of trying to make our youth swallow superstition, we should teach them that "being nice" is a less dangerous and often more profitable path.
The Universe is Open Source: oblivion is just a click away.
This is wrong because why? (3.66 / 9) (#189)
by rand on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 10:49:04 AM EST

I must agree with some points of this rant-- in that the media, recording industry, internet community, and (in general) school system is generally not to blame for kids whom end up doing overly stupid things with their lives.

However, blaming the above-average suburban family for screwed up kids is equally unfair. The picture you paint with the above rant is very similar to my own home life as a child, youth, and young adult. My parents worked the long hours to go after the big bucks, and as a result I generally saw very little of them unless attending some pre-arranged event.

I watched just as much violent television, played just as many rip-their-spines-out violent video games, and listened to just as much gangster rap and metal as the next kid. However, I didn't turn to drugs and blame my parents. I didn't mow down a schoolyard full of pre-school children and blame my parents.

What I did, was learn what they were doing so well, that by the time I was a high school senior, I owned my own business and drove a porsche. (Granted, it wasn't new, but a 911 to a highschool kid... well, nuf said.) I graduated high school with a 3.4 GPA and a 27% attendance record. Sure, I skipped a lot of class like any high school kid would-- however it was not to go out and get smashed every night, nor to deal drugs, nor because I just felt that laying in bed and watching the tube was a more productive use of my time.

Watching my parents put their nose to the grindstone served to show me that if you want anything in this world, gasp, you actually have to go out and work for it. I applaud them for their methods of raising children, as both myself and my brother turned out in a very similar way.

Yes, parents are generally the reason kids turn out bad. However, it is not because they do not spend a great deal of time with them. Kids can just as easily ignore nightly family meetings and church on sundays as they can ignore their parents whom are always at work.

The problem with the majority of kids whom get hauled home by the police at two in the morning is that their sense of values is beyond screwed up. THAT is the fault of their parents, and happens in all walks of life, not just upper class suburbia. It does not take a huge amount of time, nor current monitoring of a child to install the belief that it's fundimentally wrong to go out and blow away your classmates because they called you names.



This be the verse (4.28 / 7) (#192)
by SIGFPE on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 12:10:06 PM EST

They fuck you up, your mum and dad,
they may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had,
and add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn,
by fools, in old style hats and coats,
who half the time were sorry stern,
and half at one anothers' throats.

Man hands on misery to man,
it broadens like a coastal shelf.
So get out as quickly as you can,
and don't have any kids yourself.

-- Philip Larkin
SIGFPE
Assholes ahoy! (3.00 / 1) (#196)
by Scrutinizer on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 12:54:33 PM EST

So get the little bastards a rectumectomy...

and guess who's to blame? (4.25 / 8) (#197)
by PseudoKiller on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 01:25:58 PM EST

Well lets see... I had 2 parents, both worked full time to make ends meet. I have an alcoholic father and a nut job for a Mom. I love them both but I can't stand to be around them. I have never been arrested nor do I do drugs. I have a drink maybe once a week. I work full time have dated the women for serveral years and never cheated on her. I have been married for over 7 years and yes we may have problems but nothing I would consider serious. My parents were never around while I was growing up. I was, what they called back then, a latch key kid. My sister has a job as a nurse helping kids with cancer. So when does it become the responsibility of the "kid" "teenager" whatever you want to call it...when is it their responsibility for the actions they take, when are they supposed to grow the hell up or at the very least act a little more mature than a group of animals?? Just because you want to dosen't mean you should. Take your finger out of you ass and start to think for yourself...my $0.02 PseudoKiller
I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!! :)
(gasp) oh no, not acid! (3.00 / 9) (#199)
by coffee17 on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 02:10:09 PM EST

Oh no, not acid, a little bit of that will ruin the world. I bet they'll even move on to pot. Damn, if I had a kid, and he got busted selling acid or weed, and many other drugs, I'd mainly be concerned with whether it was good quality or not, and be mad if he/she was selling cheap doses, and want in on some if s/he had good stuff.

I'll remark on your other points in a later comment, but some of your issues, drugs, blasphemy, manson just seem stupid. Even when parents do try to get active in raising their kids it doesn't mean that one is going to raise a little clone of themselves.


-coffee

Youth Need to Understand Change (4.00 / 2) (#203)
by AArthur on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 03:14:52 PM EST

I think a Richard Nixon commerical from 1968 explains the problems with American youth today.

http://www.ammi.org/cgi-bin/video/ram.cgi?1968,14

"American youth today has it's fringes. But that's part of the greatness of our country. I have great faith in American youth. The youth of today can change the world. And if they understand that, I think we are going forward to a great age -- not just for Americans, but for peace and progress for all the people in the world."

The fact is, American youth are apathitic to everything. They don't feel like they change things. They dislike a law, they feel like that can't change it. They dislike a school policy, they feel powerless (eventhough walkouts, protests, writing to local papers, senators, etc. does help). And you DO NOT have to be 18 to make difference -- schools still have to listen to childern -- as they will be adults, and chances are that parents will be willing to help you fight on your behave.

American youth need to understand they can change things, and if they get a large enough force together behind them, things will change. A school can not afford to upset even 1 out of 5 students -- or even worst 1 out of 5 parents. School board member's positions are a stake, as is the budget. A repeatingly failing school budget is a good sign something is not right in the school leadership.

Change. It doesn't matter your age, you must understand you can do it, and do it.

Andrew B. Arthur | aarthur@imaclinux.net | http://hvcc.edu/~aa310264

Playing the blame game (3.25 / 4) (#204)
by anansi on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 03:18:45 PM EST

This rant is NOT directed at the families where both parents are working so they can make ends meet. This rant is NOT directed at the single parents who work long hours as miserable jobs so that their kids can go to school in a safe area. This rant is NOT directed at the parents who come home at night too tired to play catch with their children, but sit on the stoop and cheer for them as they play with the neighbors. This rant is aimed square into the wealthy suburbs.

What makes you think that it's just the wealthy suburbs creating the problem?

If it weren't so sad, it would be laughable the way americans are so focused on who to blame for each and every individual problem. What about the companies which require mandatory overtime of the workers? Mighty hard to raise children when spending time with your kids could get you fired.

Society's watchdogs have finally cracked down on tobacco companies manipulating children into addiction, now what if we had the will to restrain the rest of that psychological warfare against kids? We've all seen the screaming child in the grocery store who simply must have that toy or that candy. Dare we stand up to the advertising industry that creats this need?

Maybe Ms Clinton got it wrong with, "It takes a village", but that's only because there is no village! You want to blame someone for the eroded village, or do you want to build one?

Don't call it Fascism. Use Musollini's term: "Corporatism"

oh my fucking god... (3.75 / 4) (#209)
by flummox on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 04:11:09 PM EST

how right you are... this is an excellent start to a very wonderful topic.

i agree. most of the time, neglet can do so much harm. i grew up in a similar setting. except, luckily for me, the setting wasn't the result from greedy parents. it was just a haphazard divorce that set it into motion. the only thing that i feel kept me "in line" is the fact that my parents always had the time to show and tell us that they loved us. if we hadn't had that, i'd probably be in jail by now...

i'm not saying that i'm a perfect kid or that the "other children" are that bad. i'm simply talking about the fact that my parents expressed love. they didn't shower me with gifts to make amends for their mistakes. they would sit down and talk with me about it.

and i think that is the difference this writer was going for... TALK WITH YOUR CHILDREN. not at them... with them...

check ya later...

cap'n flummox


...bring me my cheese...

KIDS KICK ASS (4.50 / 2) (#214)
by gauntlet on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 05:06:22 PM EST

I don't have any children. Not yet, anyway. I'm thinking in a couple of years when my wife has been working long enough to get maternity leave in addition to my paternity leave we'll have some. But damn, I'm looking forward to it.

Kids are amazing. They have the ability to adapt almost instantaneously to whatever environment they are born into. It's incredible. They unwillingly learn the rules of the society they are in, and they follow them. They are intellectual sponges. It's fantastic.

They grow up older and start to learn to socialize in the formal environments of the world. They start with playschool or pre-school, then kindergarten, then primary, elementary, junior high, and high school. By this time, they are practically adults, but better. Most of them are energetic, determined, acutely aware of the world around them. They may not, at this point in their lives, be very experienced, or wise, but they are smart, and they have an innate ability to sink their teeth into something and shake.

The large majority will leave high-school without ever having held a weapon. These days, none of them have ever known a world war. They have never known international hatred, and they despise interracial hatred. The world we came into was what we decided to build on, and we've had our failings. They arrive in this world and don't see generations of effort. They see an untouched blank canvas, ready to be improved for themselves, for their friends, and for their families.

Children are great. I'm honoured to know that I used to be one. You should be too. Unless you're still a child, in which case I want you to know that the great majority of adults are not like the ones that run the media, and the one that (presumably) wrote this article. We know that you're just doing your best. And we hope that you know we're just doing ours.

Into Canadian Politics?

Dead on (5.00 / 1) (#218)
by Harvey Fish on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 06:50:16 PM EST

Two of the biggest school shootings that America has seen were by kids whose parents were NOT low-income crack addicts. Instead, they were people of upper-middle class or higher means. These were the families that people wondered out loud "how could this sort of thing happen to such well-respected parents in the community".

I was amazed when I realized that so few people "got it". By taking these murderers as young children to daycare for 12+ hours a day so they were able to maintain a six-digit household income, they instilled in them their value for human life that made it possible to walk into school one day and blast their fellow students away.

There are a large number of two-income families with children out there who could afford to have one of the adults stay home full time until the kids go to school, and then put in some hours if they want when the kids do go to school. If both parents need to work, then consider staggering your shifts so that there is always someone home.

A couple years ago a local news station did a piece about a local daycare provider who they video'ed with a hidden camera installed in a child's playpen. The 2-year old whose parents enlisted the help of the TV station when they felt that something was going on was shown on tape being left in the playpen without adult interaction all day in the same diaper, which was changed 15 minutes before the parents came to pick their child up after a 9 hour day. It also showed kids running by and hitting the kid until he cried, and again no adults came to the rescue.

To top all that the husband of the daycare provider was a convicted sex offender.

Here is the true crime: when the reporter confronted parents picking up their kids from this daycare center with the video and the information about the husband every single one of them had the reaction "well, we haven't had any problems with them and they are the cheapest daycare that I could find".


ObSatireWire and the poll (3.00 / 1) (#219)
by mrBlond on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 07:19:23 PM EST

Parents say web sites teach fucking profanity

I don't have kids, and would only ever consider adopting if one day I could support one. I think people who'd like to have some progeny are exactly the people who shouldn't.

While I've never taken any, I'd hope my child would be free enough to decide for itself whether to take drugs. I'd like the kid to be able to think rationally and hopefully denounce such silly things as God, Valhalla, Santa, Satan, and the easter bunny... I'd also be kinda proud if they could build (not set off) a bomb, afterwhich they'd be grounded for a month of course. While I'm a pacifist I'd understand them assaulting someone, hell I wanted to when I was a kid. Raping is unforgivable tho, I'd turn any kid of mine in to the police if they were guilty of something like that.

For the love of reason, always add a none of the above.
--
Inoshiro for cabal leader.

Crime Rate Vs. Mental Problems (5.00 / 1) (#220)
by ZorbaTHut on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 07:23:05 PM EST

I've seen a lot of people here talking about how the crime rate is low, about how there are actually very few cases of murder or rape or whatever, but . . . that actually matters very little.

Yes, I'll agree that it's good that the crime rate's low. But I know plenty of people who would never commit a crime who are still in absolutely terrible shape. People who, for one reason or another, are suicidal, repeatedly overdose on drugs, cut themselves, got sexually abused as children, get drunk, do drugs (the bad kinds - yes, there's a difference) . . . in fact, *each* of those I can point to two or three people I know who do that. Some more. (Cutting? At least a dozen.) Note that this is out of maybe two dozen people, all under the age of 20. Mostly female. But not all. A good number of them under 15.

I don't *care* about the crime statistics here. None of them have ever been arrested. In fact, among all of them, the only runin with the police I've ever even *heard* of is a single speeding ticket, and that was an honest mistake on their part.

The crime statistics aren't important - the important thing is that I know two dozen people who are, frankly, wonderful, and yet who still go to bed crying every night with fresh scars on their arm. It's easy to point at the assholes - but *they're* at least going to survive to be adults.

I want another poll with this (1.50 / 2) (#223)
by mami on Mon Jul 16, 2001 at 10:36:42 PM EST

I would like to know from everybody who has posted a comment if he/she has kids or not.

Do you have kids over 18 ?
Do you have kids over 14 ?
Do you have kids over 10 ?
Do you have kids over 6 ?
I have kids under 6
I don't have kids




Generalizations (4.50 / 4) (#229)
by opentuba on Tue Jul 17, 2001 at 03:28:03 AM EST

Me being of the younger group (still in High School) I know many teenagers of upper class and middle class families. I know all types, from the very misdirected to future big leaders. Much of how a person is, including teens, depends on the person themself. I am a self-taught programmer, and have learned much of what I know on my own, although I do have great parents. I know kids of upper class/middle class families who are similar to me, and have high values, etc. Then again, there are those people who are just really stupid. I mean the people who think that the most important thing is what you are wearing, smoking, drinking, etc. My personal belief is that teens are wasteful and stupid because they don't know the value of work. I have always thought that some families move in cycles through the generations:
  • smart person who becomes rich,
  • (s)he spoils his/her kids,
  • those kids become stupid.
  • They become poor and support from their parents runs out.
  • They have a kid who they can't afford to spoil
  • That kid is sick of being poor and does something about it
  • That kid gets rich and has kids
  • go back to step 1
My Dad, although he works a lot, has always taught me the value of work, basically by making me pay for much of my own things, or at least half of some of the larger things. Although my family could afford it, I am not going to be handed a BMW when I get my license. If I wanted one, that would be something I would have to work for. So, my main point is that kids should be taught the value of hard work, even if the parents can afford to buy "the world" for them. Money feels so much better when you have earned it yourself. /* Stephen */

It's a problem, but not the only problem (4.00 / 2) (#233)
by RavenDuck on Tue Jul 17, 2001 at 05:13:53 AM EST

While I think that this is a good little rant (and I mean that in the nicest possible way), I think it falls into the trap of assuming that there is only one cause (and therefore one solution) to violence (I know you're not exclusively talking about violence, but it's hard to quantify "arsehole" in any other convinient way).

Certainly, parents who are neglectful of their children often contribute to them growing up to be antisocial. This is not exclusive to any single class, but I guess you might argue that the financially sound have the resources to potentially avoid it. I think it's an interesting point that should have been made more explicitly in Kelleher's miedocre book "When good kids kill". But there are lots of other factors that contribute to a violent society, in general, and violent individuals, in particular. Criminology has been looking at this issue for a number of years, and doesn't pretend to have all the answers. I assure you, however, that bored rich kids are *not* the greatest perpetrators of violence.

Some of the comments remind me of a conference I was at recently where there was a couple who brought along their young (only a few months old, I guess) baby. Both of the parents were Evolutionary Psychologists, and I remember wondering how they would apply what they study to raising their child. I'm sure, however, they'll do a much better job than Skinner! For what it's worth, however, some of the most screwed up people I've known were children of psychologists, people who have no excuse for not knowing how to raise kids properly (and it's only recently that I've found some good counterexamples!).

--
For murder, though it have no tongue, will speak
With most miraculous organ.
Please don't undermine the Cargo Cult (2.00 / 1) (#242)
by cargogod on Tue Jul 17, 2001 at 10:34:42 AM EST

You post a nice rant, but it runs directly against the principle beliefs of My followers. You're going to have a hard time convincing them of their responsibilities as parents (or as human beings), when their religion keeps them free of responsibility. Good luck.

Same Old Same Old (3.00 / 4) (#243)
by PseudoKiller on Tue Jul 17, 2001 at 11:34:13 AM EST

If you think suddenly parents and children will become the model citizens that we all should be (hehe) You are in for a huge dissapointment. Welcome to the real world. The sign up sheet is to your left and please include the time... Take a look at history, all children will rebel and each generation will make their efforts to outdo the previous. Whether conciously or not it is going to happen. I am 35 going on 60 and have no kids and at this point in my life I don't want any. I do not find that I have a 'need' for them. Neither does my wife. I have friends (yes I have friends...STOP laughing) who have kids of various ages. Some good natured and some I wouldn't trust with my dog. The point being I am not so sure how much parental supervision is need for a child to become his or her best. Or whether it is a matter of enviornment or genetics... Maybe it has to do with the bug they killed when someone was 5 and they feel the rush of power and turn to the dark side?? If you understand my words..Thank you If not I am sorry... Have a good one PseudoKiller
I dont suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!! :)
Front Page? Why? (2.60 / 5) (#261)
by sto0 on Tue Jul 17, 2001 at 06:50:07 PM EST

I can't believe this post got to the front page. This kind of thing was exactly why I stopped reading Slashdot. Whilst some points are valid, the narrowness of understanding of culture is shocking. The "class" system is very grey. You can't say "middle classes" without pronouncing upon the lower classes and upper classes. I agree that bad parenting can be a contributing factor when kids encounter problems, but you cannot discount external influences.

Parents, genetic makeup, our culture, our worldview, our expectations. These things are all factors in sculpting an individual. It's stupid to believe otherwise.

Who's who (3.00 / 1) (#275)
by error 404 on Wed Jul 18, 2001 at 08:55:26 PM EST

Looking at the average demographic of this group, I'm suspecting that the more common situation isn't "your kid's an asshole" but that you are the kid.

So the point becomes "It's my parents fault! Wah!"

Thank you.
..................................
Electrical banana is bound to be the very next phase
- Donovan

Brick-makers. (5.00 / 1) (#277)
by anlprb on Thu Jul 19, 2001 at 12:30:27 AM EST

I personally love children, I beleive that they are the true mouth of God. I came home running one day, and walked across the street to my neighbor's house, and his beautiful 8 year old daughter came up to me and told me "You stink." By heaven, I did. How many adults would be that honest, and open? My neighbor lost his wife to cancer just after his second daughter was born. His wife would not take the chemo-therapy (sp?) because she knew it would have killed her second daughter. She gave her life for Karen-Marie. With the help of family, and friends like me who are willing to take the girls off his hands for a few hours while he gets some time in to himself, he is raising two bright, polite and happy girls. He has it hard, and he knows it. He is just making ends meet by working for the DPW in town. He CARES about his children. Each day, he does something with them. He does their homework with them, and plays with them, and is there for them. This man will never get written about in any magazine or journal or company newsletter, however, I beleive that he has found the way to both true happiness, and heaven (by whatever definition you want to use). He has problems sometimes, but he manages, and takes an active interest in his chidren. I believe that at the end of the night, he is more fulfilled and truly happy than any six figure household could ever be. In the very true words of Orson Scott Card (Who is a mormon by the way) "'So, you're a career father,' Said Valentine. 'Who works at a brick factory to feed and clothe the family. Not a brick-maker who also has kids."..."'It's a boring life, to read about,' said Olhado. 'Not to live, though.'" I wish more people would be parents who also happen to be brick-makers.

You are correct ... (none / 0) (#281)
by joegee on Thu Jul 19, 2001 at 02:30:33 PM EST

I see your distinction. However, I believe only in the loosest sense does having older children/young adults together in a classroom make classroom violence more likely. The available material shows that older kids commit more crimes than younger kids, but as recently as twenty years ago, thirty to fifty years after the majority of older kids began completing grades 1-12 education, high schools were not the scenes of mass violence. Even violence outside of school was considerably less likely to be deadly. One would think that if older kids have always been historically violent, the levels of violence occuring outside the classroom would be unchanging. They aren't. They began rising in the late 1960's, and I believe they peaked in the early 1990's. Back to older kids in school, thirty to fifty years is a tremendous gap in time -- two generations -- this leads me to believe that there is indeed something else at work. What is most readily apparent to me during this thirty to fifty year gap is a change in lifestyles, social attitudes, and most of all parenting practices. I appreciate your tenacity, and your willingness to back up your assertions. +5 on the comment to which I am replying. Thank you for the challenge, and I apologize for my previous denseness. :)

<sig>I always learn something on K5, sometimes in spite of myself.</sig>
Your kid's an asshole - and guess who's to blame? | 282 comments (273 topical, 9 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - Present Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
My heart's the long stairs.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories!