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12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts.

By Electric Angst in Op-Ed
Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 08:52:18 PM EST
Tags: Culture (all tags) 		Culture

On Febuary 20th, twelve-year-old Detroit girl Tempest Smith hung herself with her own leopard-print scarf.

The reason? Constant harassment by her classmates, including bombardment with Christian hymns to ridicule her Wiccan beliefs.

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You can read the Detroit News article about the suicide here.

The harassment undergone by school children is something of which we are all aware. This case, however, is notable, not only because of the resulting suicide, but also because of the nature of the harassment, religious intolerance. Or perhaps, it is notable because of the lack of attention paid to the nature of the harassment.

When the infamous Columbine shooting occurred, it was only a short manner of time before the story of Cassie Bernall, a student shot because of her decision to admit her Christian faith, was known by the entire nation. That story was eventually proven false, though by then a dead child had already become a martyr for the Christian right of the United States.

I don't believe that anyone can seriously say that Tempest Smith's suicide will be given nearly as much thought or lip service at the death of Cassie Bernall, and I want to ask the question; Why?

Cassie Bernall was not persecuted because of her beliefs, she was gunned down at random by madmen. Tempest Smith was driven to suicide by the constant harassment from her peers, who were singling her out specifically for her religion. The former's death was a senseless act of violence, the latter's the result of hate.

It becomes very tempting at this point to blame a society and media heavily dominated by Christians. To say that the story of a Christian persecuted for her beliefs is seen as more valid than the persecution of someone who follows a less established religion.

I do not want to argue that point, though, because I fear that it may be true, and that would bode ill for followers of minority religions in the United States.

I will argue, though, that the death of Tempest Smith by her own grief-stricken hands has not received as much attention because of a desire to filter intolerance out of view in our society. Rather than remind America that someone can still be treated as less than human for holding a different faith, a different lifestyle, or otherwise divergent from the norm, it is much more comforting to simply ignore the issue.

To acknowledge that Tempest Smith's classmates were exerting cruel psychological torture on the young woman with the hymns their church had taught them would be to indict not only the school children, but the hymns as well. To make this tragic event public knowledge would be to put a mirror to the face of the majority, forcing them to see the intolerance in their own eyes, crumbling their arguments that it no longer exists.

Tempest Smith has gone on, but how many right now are facing the same situation because of their beliefs? How long will it take before people will attempt to change the prejudices that exist within themselves, instead of simply denying that they exist?

I can only hope it happens before another young woman is found hanging, lifeless.

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12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts. | 351 comments (297 topical, 54 editorial, 5 hidden)
Could it be...? (4.00 / 11) (#2)
by leviathan on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 12:52:35 PM EST

Could it perhaps be that schoolkids get bullied and commit suicide all the time, whereas they rarely get gunned down by a classmate that's making the media less interested in this case than the columbine one? Maybe wishing to hide intolerance has something to do with it (but I don't know your society, so I can't really comment), but I'd look to the more obvious answer first.

--
I wish everyone was peaceful. Then I could take over the planet with a butter knife.
- Dogbert
Maybe now they'll listen (4.06 / 15) (#3)
by Wodin on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 12:57:18 PM EST

I remember my high school history class -- the history of the United States was described as one set of freedoms following another, gradually growing stronger and more entrenched as time passed. And I remember old Ms. Vigness reinforcing the fact, again and again, that the United States was founded due to desire for religious freedom.

So what happened? Where did society decide that Chirstianity was the only acceptable religion? I find it incredibly frustrating that intolerance of this sort can continue in this day and age. What's more, the problem is more in the institution than anything else. When the very belief structure of some religiouns involves attacking those who do not belong and forcing them to believe, what are we going to expect to happen?

I realize that this is somewhat rantish, but I'm just horribly frustrated by this kind of senseless, random perversion of religion into everything that it shouldn't stand for. Religion should not be used as a tool to destroy others, regardless of their beliefs. Why can't the church reinforce that, instead of telling them that those who are different are going to hell?

I realize that not all churches believe this -- more liberal variations such as Unitarian Universalist and United Church of Christ do an excellent job of being accepting. It's a pity that not everyone can, though.

A little dramatic... (4.50 / 18) (#5)
by codepoet on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 12:58:54 PM EST

I can only hope it happens before another young woman is found hanging, lifeless.

That's being a little dramatic, don't you think? And while I can agree with some of the points you make, I have to point out something here: this really isn't about religion. I know people are going to try and try to make this about religion but let's face it, this was a twelve-year-old girl going to school with twelve-year-olds. Kids can be harsh, cruel, stupid, heartless, etc. We've seen this already both in the discussions here about the school shootings and in the fact that there have been so many.

This is really about the fact that parents just don't teach their kids to be nice and don't enforce any sort of behavior rule set on them, many times just saying, "kids will be kids" and blowing it all off.

I'm not disputing the tradgedy, nor the fact that there is a problem here, but it's not about religion, it about the kids. It's about kids being bullies and being downright selfish. It's about kids that are given so much as home in the way of ego and self-esteem that they expect the world to give it to them and when it doesn't they inflate their ego themselves and ... well off they go, attacking all around and feeding on the self-esteem others lose in their presence.

It's not about religion, it's about brats.

-- The cynical can often see the sinister aspect of a cup of coffee if given enough time.

Wicca? (3.33 / 12) (#7)
by deefer on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 01:00:33 PM EST

Seems to me that an increasing lot of US folks are getting into this religion...
Anybody ever met a real Wiccan follower? I've never met a druid or a "white witch" over here in the UK...
Looking at a few web pages, it looks a bit like pagan beliefs spiced up with a bit of new-age-travellerism, to me... Any wiccans out there?
And were this poor girls parents followers of the faith as well?

Still, another great tragedy of this is it won't make the news as ubiquitously as any "mad schoolkid gun rampage" type headlines, and this poor girls tormentors are unlikely to be punished.

My sympathy for the deceased's family.


Kill the baddies.
Get the girl.
And save the entire planet.
Asinine quote of the day award: (4.41 / 24) (#9)
by cbatt on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 01:03:33 PM EST

"The last thing we want to do is make our students feel guilty," said Lincoln Park Middle School Principal Robert Redden. "But, maybe there is a lesson to be learned here: that we should strive to treat each other with more kindness."
Uhmm... some are guilty. To those, the first thing you want to do is make them feel guilty. It's called punishment and it's supposed to follow bad behaviour, such as relentless teasing leading to death.

The statement is followed up by the remarkably unprofound "But maybe there is a lesson..."

LOL! Maybe? We can also hand out the clueless award to this person. This isn't a question of maybe. There is a lesson to be learned here.

-----------
Before you can understand recursion
you must understand recursion.

Your attitude isn't any better (3.61 / 21) (#12)
by jasonab on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 01:17:45 PM EST

Why are you insisting on treating Christians with the same scorn those children treated their classmate? They were no more Christian than a person with a broomstick is a Wiccan, and I would like to think that you would know better.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of the media is not Christian, or very religious at all. The girl was taunted because she could be - not because of anything specific to her situation. There is little evidence to the contrary. You could replace "Wiccan" with most any other minority belief (including fundamentalist Christianity), and the situation would likely have repeated itself, just with different taunts. Your malicious flaming has no basis in reality. What happened to that girl is truly sad, but your attempts to capitalize on it with your own grandstanding are not much better.

--
America is a great country. One of the freest in the world. -- greenrd

Two things (3.78 / 14) (#23)
by weirdling on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 01:45:15 PM EST

One, the US was founded, specifically, to enforce religious intolerance. That the law currently enshrines religious freedom is a result of all the various religious factions fighting amongst themselves. Note that the first amendment is the only amendment specifically limited to congress. The reason for this is the Louisiana was a theocracy initially, and most of the early settlements were exceedingly religious. The Salem witch trials should easily demonstrate that.
Actually, religious freedom is a recent addition, and the Wiccan religion, of which I know several, is just now gaining acceptance. To me, it is just as deluded as any other religion, and, given time, it will attempt to dominate just like any other religion, because the central quote of Wiccan, about doing anything you want so long as it does not harm, sounds remarkably like the central part of Christianity.
Now, for the second thing: Nietsche said that Christianity has done far more harm than good. I am currently reading his 'Anti-Christ', which is essentially an anti-Christian rant, and it is interesting if for nothing more than an historical outlook. Christianity and indeed any religion has been proven to be remarkably intolerant *when in power*. There is not one single religion what wouldn't like to force everyone to be a part of it. I realise that individuals aren't this way, I'm speaking of the religion in general, more the corporate religion. It is actually a result of pride of identity. Essentially, when identified with a religion, one comes to the conclusion that this is the ideal solution to whatever question one has, and, as such, should be a generalised solution for everyone. It is seen as a good thing that others are compelled into the solution. A rabid religionist might even condone that behaviour, as her suicide demonstrates that she is somehow invalid.
That being said, whatever convenient hallucination people wish to believe is fine by me. I, myself, am agnostic. That is the way I view the world. And believe me, I take all kinds of abuse from confirmed Christians trying to bring me back into the fold.

I'm not doing this again; last time no one believed it.
Hmmm (4.19 / 21) (#28)
by Narcischizm on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 01:57:26 PM EST

I've got some issues with this. First, can a 12-year old be a practicing, committed Wiccan? Did she actually know what it meant to be a Wiccan or did she borrow a book from a 14-year old who thought Wicca was 'cool'? In terms of suicide, how committed to a religion can a 12-yo be, that she will endure taunts and ridicule until driven to suicide? Was this a larger issue, like maybe mental illness and depression that drove her to suicide, regardless of her religious beliefs?

IMO, this girl committed suicide because she was depressed, outcast, and just didn't feel like she could take it any longer. The other kids decided to use her religion as another point of ridicule. If she was publically a Born-Again, I bet she still would have been harrassed.

We need to start looking at core issues rather than attempting to place blame on outside factors for what seems to clearly be a mental health and stress issue. I kept rereading this article, and the linked article, and it seemed pretty clear that this k5 article was sidestepping the issue as much as video games, music, movies, and guns being completely responsible for school shootings.

Read a bit between the lines (4.15 / 20) (#29)
by Anonymous 242 on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 01:59:37 PM EST

From the Detroit News article:
Although Tempest had a few friends, many of her classmates had teased her constantly since elementary school. They teased her because she wore dark "Gothic" clothing to school. They teased her because she read books about Wicca, a pagan religion often associated with witchcraft. Her classmates often taunted her with Christian hymns.
Now, it may well be that some of the children doing the taunting were self-professed Christians. We don't know that. All we know is that the children doing the taunting were using Christian hymns as part of the barage of hate.

The implication of this writeup is that it is Christians that drove poor Tempest to suicide. This may be the case, but if it was, it is only because that those Christians that made Tempest's life a living hell weren't living out their faith.

nothing to report here. (3.45 / 20) (#49)
by gblues on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 03:16:13 PM EST

Okay, a young girl gets teased at school, becomes depressed, and commits suicide. There have been a bazillion after-school specials on this subject. All you're doing is using it to bash Christianity.

Someone, please, show me where in the gospels Jesus says anything about persecuting those who did not have faith in him. You won't, because he says quite the opposite: love those who hate you, and do good to those who persecute you.

Yeah, some people claim to be Christians and don't act like it. Obviously such people are not what they claim to be. That's life, and definitely not worth this pathetic write-up.

Nathan
... although in retrospect, having sex to the news was probably doomed to fail from the get-go. --squinky
A mild objection... (4.25 / 27) (#66)
by seebs on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 04:13:17 PM EST

I would argue that the kids who taunted the poor girl, while they may have had little "Christian" hats, were not doing a very good job of sticking to the beliefs their religion supposedly holds.

If a bunch of people claiming to be "communists" pursued their belief in shared property by killing me and taking all my stuff, I'd hate to see the ideology of communism, however flawed it may be, blamed for what is clearly a behavior that has little to do with it.

Similarly, what we see here is the cruelty of children, not a religious act.


Imagine .... (4.24 / 33) (#70)
by FlightTest on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 04:59:28 PM EST

that someone attempted to post a story condeming all geeks/goths over Columbine in the same manner in which E.A. has condemend all of Christianity over the actions of these children. It would be quickly voted to oblivion, after all, you can't condem an entire culture of the actions of a select minority, can you?

And the real story isn't that some children taunted another child until the tormented child lashed out in some (self) destructive manner. No, the REAL story is that news is selectively filtered to advance an agenda, and the only reason it gets noticed here is because of the decidedly anti-Christian bias (intolerance) present on this site.

For example, everyone in the United States has heard of Matthew Shepard and James Byrd (and well we should), but how many have heard of Kevin Shifflett,an eight year old white child slain by a black man screaming racial who left a note in his hotel room reading, "Kill them racist white kids". How many have heard of Jason Befort, Heather Muller, Bradley Heyka and Aaron Sander, who, along with Jason's fiancee, were kidnapped, robbed, raped, and executed (Jason's fiancee was the lone survior, and not named in the news stories I've seen) by 2 black brothers. Oh, by the way, all 5 victims were white. Neither case is being prosecuted as a "hate" crime, either.

You wouldn't dream of condeming all blacks based on these two crimes, would you? So why condem all Christians based on the actions of a group of childern? No, the REAL story, as I've said, is that NONE of these stories (INCLUDING the story discussed here) have received national attention, or even attention outside of the communities where they occured. The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd stories were all over news in evey state. Why the difference?

Sorry, I just can't go along with condeming entire groups of people based on the actions of a few. It's wrong when you characterize racial groups that way, it's wrong when you characterize social groups that way, and it's wrong when you characterize religious groups that way.



Why did I flip? I got tired of coming up with last minute desparate solutions to impossible problems created by other fucking people.
Well... (3.33 / 9) (#88)
by Remmis on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 06:51:46 PM EST

I think there is a given that should be removed from the equation. (maybe it was already assumed that way) Kids pick on other kids, that's simply the way it is. But I suppose the point EA is trying to make is, how did it come to pass that religion became a point of mockery. The concept that one religion is right and one is wrong. The answer, of course, is that it is simply built into our culture. It is roughly equivalent to people arguing about how to indent their source code. Even if the compiler turns the two files into the same program, people will ceaselessly argue about how to get to the same end. Trying to contemplate how to swiftly end all intolerance in this country, religious or otherwise, is like trying to drain the Atlantic ocean through a straw.

OTOH, if you want to simply view it as, how could we have prevented this one suicide, there are certainly steps that could have been taken. If those sorts of steps were taken everywhere, you'd have billions of straws draining the Atlantic. Until people learn some preventative maintenance, we will only move to change things for the better in schools where horrible things like these have already happened.

I only use schools as an example, because I think that most parents are pretty set in their ways, and trying to remove their intolerance would be quite futile. Needless to say, since kids learn most of their values from their parents, any structured plan would take a lot of time and money to have any effect.

And since no politician would make money from it, it won't ever happen :P

coder1: "What the fuck are you doing?"
coder2: "I'm declaring a loop control variable."
coder1: "Inside the loop? Are you nuts?"
coder2: *BANG*
Anti-bullying Policy (4.56 / 23) (#90)
by Paul Johnson on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 07:23:25 PM EST

As others have rightly commented, the issue here is not Wicca vs Xtian but child vs child. Children have always bullied those weaker than themselves. The issue here is how to stop it before it causes suicide.

For the school to say "we didn't see it so we can't stop it" is a poor excuse. Its equivalent to saying that the police can only stop crimes which they happen to see. Bullying to this level will happen unless the school takes an active role in stopping it. That means:

  • All children are told, more than once, that bullying is unacceptable behaviour. Make it a topic of class discussion and do drama workshops around it.
  • Children are told that bringing bullying to the attention of adults is the right thing to do. Bullies will use fear and the victim's desire to be accepted to persuade their victims to suffer in silence.
  • Any allegation of bullying is taken seriously and investigated. Even if strong evidence is found, the fact that teachers take the time to investigate will not be lost on the bullies.

This head teacher says that he doesn't want to make the kids feel guilty. I suspect the person who would have real trouble handling the guilt is himself. So much easier to pretend there was nothing he could have done.

Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.

Why make another legend? (4.11 / 26) (#92)
by pw201 on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 07:28:48 PM EST

I don't believe that anyone can seriously say that Tempest Smith's suicide will be given nearly as much thought or lip service at the death of Cassie Bernall, and I want to ask the question; Why?

Because one was a teen suicide (which is a moderately common thing) and the other involved a couple of loonies going into a school and opening up with guns (which isn't that common, even in America, so I'm told).

To acknowledge that Tempest Smith's classmates were exerting cruel psychological torture on the young woman with the hymns their church had taught them would be to indict not only the school children, but the hymns as well.

How does one accuse a hymn of wrongdoing, and what would one do it if it was guilty?

To make this tragic event public knowledge would be to put a mirror to the face of the majority, forcing them to see the intolerance in their own eyes, crumbling their arguments that it no longer exists.

Kids can be cruel. These kids found a way in which this girl was different and exploited it. If she was fat, they would have used that instead. Kids being cruel is a bad thing. It is tragic that this girl killed herself. If these are church kids, they are guilty and should be disciplined by their parents. I don't think anyone is denying that these things are true.

That being so, I'm not sure what the point of this story is. It'd be a shame if, because the Christian Right in the US likes to generate their own legends, the pagans felt they had to do likewise. (There's a good article about these Christian urban legends, which is worth a read).

It's nice to see someone thinking of the children, (1.66 / 24) (#93)
by eLuddite on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 07:30:01 PM EST

even if the witch did try to make a meal of Hansel and Gretel.

---
God hates human rights.

trendy "grief" (4.43 / 30) (#104)
by Seumas on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 09:29:48 PM EST

One of the things that I find most disgusting about this is the "grief" and "guilt" that the school children supposedly expressed after her death. What a bunch of fake brats. In this day and age, it's become trendy to morn the death of someone, even if you never knew them or cared about them. It's drama and it puts attention on you for awhile. Look at the kids in this latest school shooting in California who, while being interviewed looked like they had dressed and prepared specifically for the cameras and seemed eerily eager to participate and rather comfortable in front of the cameras as they commented on this "nice kid" or "evil kid" or "weird kid" or whatever their particular slant on the shooter might have been or commented about the kids that were shot and killed.

It's particularly sick that the same kids who drove her to this point so quickly turn around and say "oh gee, i'm sorry -- i didn't know what I was doing when I was following you around chanting religious crap after you and humiliating you day in and day out".

When I was in school, I was always the one that got along with people. I wasn't popular and I didn't particularly like most people, but I wasn't necessarily disliked or ever bothered either. I can tell you one thing however -- I've seen enough people harassed day after day for years in a row that if I ever have children, the last place they ever go for an education will be public school and any private school I might send them to will have a detailed contractual obligation to assure the safety and appropriate learning environment for my child. The moment they fail to stop any repeated harassing is the moment we meet in court and let their contract bite them in the ass.

For the teachers to claim "gee, we didn't know -- honest!" is absolute crap. I remember teachers in school who not only knew about harassment of students, but participated. Hell, I remember jocks taking girls in the class, forcing them on their desks and grinding themselves against them while the teacher just looked on and said "hey, you boys stop that, okay?" -- which was of course ignored. The fact is, teachers don't give a fuck and if the government can't promise a safe environment for learning in the schools that they require students to attend, then every parent needs to stand up and fight against these schools in ever venue possible until they get their act together. If I entrust my child to you and you show complete negligence resulting in damage to them (mental or physical as the case may be), you better believe you're going to be responsible for your actions or lack of them.
--
I just read K5 for the articles.

Easy way out (1.95 / 21) (#106)
by maarken on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 10:15:39 PM EST

Seems to me that commiting suicid is becoming trendy and "in". Not to mention being depressed. "Oh, I'm very depressed" and the kid gets some <anti-depression-drug-of-the-week>. I have a cousin on Paxil (I think that's the one), and I have to wonder if it's really needed.

Any more you seem to see two things happen when kids get picked on:
a) Kid goes on a shooting spree.
b) Kid gets depressed and then medicatied
c) Kid commits suicid

What happened to giving as good as you get? I tend to take the "an eye for and eye" stance. If you get picked on for being Wiccan, taunt them back. If you don't, they win. Suicid is letting them win forever. So I guess my advice is this:
Grow a backbone, take a stance, taunt back, go to the principal, whatever. Don't ever fold.

All spelling errors in thist post as hurstdog's fault since there isn't a spellcheck in scoop. :)

--Maarken

Flip the symbols in my email.
My experience (3.56 / 23) (#112)
by TheSpiritOf1776 on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 11:15:59 PM EST

I remember being picked on and harassed in school. I went to a Catholic school by the way. One day I got tired of it. I beat the daylights out of one of the kids that harassed me. A teacher broke up the fight, I served a one day in-school suspension and a Saturday detention. The kid served a Saturday detention for the harassment (the dean felt he was defending himself in the fight since I threw the first punch). After that, no one ever bothered me again.

I think that bullies are just like criminals, predators that prey on the weak, though bullies are arguably more cowardly. I think the best way to deal with a bully is beat the shit of him/her, and to continue to do so until the bully learns that such behavior is not tolerated in a civilized society.


And yes, I think that's exactly what Tempest Smith should have done.

Weak Christians (2.00 / 25) (#114)
by Brother Grifter on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 11:40:48 PM EST

I'm not religous. I went to catholic school since pre-school, and though my family is historically islamic, we don't practice any faith. Christianity is the bane of all humanity. I don't look down at religion, though I think its a worthless instrument. Christianity is all about judging others, and if others don't judge your peers, then God will. And yet even if you live a good life, you're still judged by God at your death. I can appreciate religions like buddhism or hindi, who don't use a figure to drive you to live a certain life. In hindi it takes the individual to motivate themselves to be a good person, and in their belief they move closer to the greatest state of being. Christians use their weak philosphy and numbers to push non-christians in political and social manners. Hindi and buddhism don't practice in such a way, and allows the individual to commit to what kind of the life and what beliefs they choose to hold.

If the Christians are right, and a God does exist, I perhaps may goto hell. At least I'll be in the devil's presence when he's done slaughtering you christians before your delivered to your Lord, as that is the fate due to your devotion to God. So keep praying fuckers.
It is an issue (3.85 / 14) (#119)
by Khedak on Thu Mar 15, 2001 at 11:55:15 PM EST

I see lots of people responding to this saying "this has nothing to do with religion or christianity; this was just bullying". Absolutely right. Most people who are annoyed by Christians don't have any particular problem with the religion as a system of belief... it's the actions of Christian individuals that gets them upset. Christians are notoriously intolerant of other faiths, and to treat that fact like a non-issue in the light of what has happened is willful ignorance.

I, too, was ostracized to some extent by my peers when I was very young on religious grounds. My peers were, of course, young Christians wanting to know if I was 'saved'. When I told then I didn't know what that meant, they told me that if I didn't know what it was, then I wasn't, and that I was going to hell. I thought it sounded stupid at the time, and to be honest, I still do.

The Devil's greatest triumph... (3.18 / 16) (#124)
by Ray Chason on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 12:33:16 AM EST

...is not, as has been said, convincing the world that he doesn't exist. The Devil's greatest triumph is convincing the world that his will is that of God.
--
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
religion is only a side point (3.92 / 14) (#137)
by eudas on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 02:25:03 AM EST

ok i would like to present my opinion on the matter here.

thus far, i've seen quite a few posts on the matter concerning themselves with christians vs wiccans, christians vs the world, definitions of christians, definitions of wiccans, consequences of organized religion, and a few on basic insecurity of people.

i have yet to see any that address the true issue(s), those being
1. the girl's own situation such that suicide seemed a viable option;
2. the children who teased her and all aspects relevant to them (their own insecurity, mental conditions, beliefs, parents, etc.);
3. [major point] the fact(?) that religion is most likely not the true issue at hand; children after all tease each other every day. it sounds more like the religion was picked up only as an issue to use against her. it could have been her ugly hair, her large nose, or her best friend's annoying laugh;
4. the issue of why teasing (in the sense of 'oh, everybody gets teased') is tolerated at all, or at a minimum, why it is so loosely policed (and thereby implicitly approved);
5. the aforementioned issue of the press ignoring this issue largely potentially due to the inherent focus of the event; it makes christians look bad on the shallow level, and on a deeper level makes people re-examine their beliefs (which most people abjectly do not want to do).

the point i want to focus on is (3). religion is not the true issue -- the issue is really that they were picking on her until she felt that her only option was to commit suicide.

my $0.02.

eudas
"We're placing this wood in your ass for the good of the world" -- mrgoat
We have failed miserably (4.00 / 15) (#145)
by Haglund mdh on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 03:35:23 AM EST

Well, I have a few things to say to this.

First of all, this is a great tragedy, and it reminds me of the 8 (?) year old girl in UK who hung herself because of her being bullied and teased all the time in school. There are no words for how sad it is to see that children that young, actually are having serious thoughts of committing suicide, and also do it.

Somewhere, we have failed. In more than one way.

  • The principals and the teachers at our schools either can't see, or if they see, they try to forget and hide the problems.
    I know that some of the people working in schools are not the brightest people around. However, I like to think that most are. So WHY ignore the problem, thinking it will go away if you pretend it's not there?
  • Parents doesn't seem to even TRY to teach their kids what's wrong and what's right.
    Kids do what they want and they seem to be in desperate need of guidance. For example such basic things as to be taught what is right and wrong.
  • Whoever have and are raising children to be good christians, have done something wrong.
    Obviously, the children knew they were christian. Sadly, they have no idea how to be good christians.

    • Wiccan beliefs? (1.72 / 11) (#151)
    by lazerus on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 04:47:39 AM EST

    Wiccan beliefs include that marrying an animal (known as handfasting) or someone of the same sex is acceptable. I'm not pro- or anti-Wiccan one way or another, but I'm just wondering, as such things are acceptable according to this religion, or rather group of religions, is it any wonder that Christians, with their staunch right-wing beliefs, are opposed to such religions or belief systems? The idea of marrying a dog or horse would be completely unnacceptable to almost any Christian. Whether they're right or wrong, though, is a matter of religious/spiritual belief.

    Old news (2.50 / 8) (#160)
    by slaytanic killer on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 06:47:15 AM EST

    I have no illusions that dominant religions don't stir deep arrogance in creatures just barely evolved from monkeys. But this very bittering event is old news.

    Even though my emotions are cheaply stirred by this damn article, god, don't I wish I had known these people who've lived such lives. Persecuted by Christians or not; that's irrelevant.

    Except for one thing. Go to Europe if you haven't. Visit the churches, whose domes are constructed in ways that one can hear the whispering of others if you stand in the right location. Christianity, as well as music and anything else that allows people to gain happiness in life, is highly politicized and misused. These kids and families don't worship god, they worship their own damn Satan.

    christianity is diseased (1.37 / 43) (#172)
    by wobblie on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 09:17:54 AM EST

    Christians make me sick. Wiccans can be classified as harmless dimwits.

    Christianity is the most venomous nonsense ever perpetrated on the human race.

    To Die or Not To Die... (3.40 / 10) (#200)
    by jd on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 11:53:39 AM EST

    That, sadly, is too often the question.

    And, whilst people will no doubt argue about whos religion caused the death, this time, few will spare a single thought for the girl, or the culture of abandonment which led to her taking her own life.

    It's EASY to point fingers. Anyone can do that. All it takes is a hand. But how often do we see anything being done, at school or at home, when bullying or abuse (including verbal abuse) takes place?

    Verbally-abusive people point to the First Ammendment to justify their actions, and tell you that the abused "could have walked away". Yeah, right. Like you can just walk out of a classroom when you feel like it.

    As for blaming Christianity, I'll say this much. Christianity is a "good" religion for abusers. There's a lot of rich material which can be twisted to justify almost anything. But that doesn't make them Christians. "Thou shalt not kill" seems pretty definitive. It doesn't leave much room for debate. Yet the extreme right-wing of America claims to be Christian AND pro-Death Penalty.

    Sorry, but whilst Christianity may be a good source for excuses, it's a label that no killer, abuser, bully, thief, confidence trickster, liar, cheat or any other person who harms another, can EVER legitamately claim.

    But, hey, if they're already up to their armpits in blood, what's one false claim?

    Two different issues (3.00 / 5) (#213)
    by RocketScientist on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 01:42:37 PM EST

    Let's look at this as two separate issues.

    First, there was a considerable amount of bullying and harrasment going on here, and for some reason this child was not able to deal with it, either because it was more than she could bear or because she was more brittle than most. Yes that should be stopped, good friggin luck. Unless you gag every kid and strap them down to their chairs all day, there's going to be bullying and harrasment in schools.

    Second, the parents of the kids doing the bullying obviously didn't teach their children very well what it means to be a Christian. Christianity is, in theory, a religion about love, consideration and respect for your fellow humans, and tolerance. Of course, there's also that New Testament verse that goes "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" somewhere in the New Testament. Literally, Christians are required by their religion to kill witches.

    Christianity is the religion that brought us both sides of the Troubles in Ireland, the Crusades, the Inquisition, countless instances of religious martyring (Hypatia was mentioned earlier, there are easily millions more).

    Christianity is a religion full of internal dissonance (peace and love, crusades and inquisitions; charity and tolerance, ostentatious churches and bigotry). In short, for anyone with a mindset that can detach from their beliefs momentarily, Christianity is an easy target for any criticism of not only its theory but also how it is practiced.

    Christians have been both persecuted and persecutors throughout history, and through that has managed to maintain a level of intolerance for other religions that in many cases rivals the Taliban in Afghanistan.

    This is not all to say that Christianity is an altogether evil thing. Christians were instrumental in preserving many of the writings and antiquities that we have today (well, at least the ones they didn't BURN IN ALEXANDRIA). Christianity preaches the value of good work, charity, and sanctity of life, things that are generally considered good.

    By the way, most Wiccans I've met are discreet enough that you won't know one from just looking at them. Their entire proselytization (is that even a word?...umm..."outreach for the purpose of increasing the number of believers") is based on people that need to find them will be able to find them. It's oddly effective despite the lack of logic and seeming mysticism.

    rocketscientist.

    Weird, huh? (2.44 / 9) (#216)
    by AgentGray on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 02:29:52 PM EST

    How did her wiccan beliefs help her cope with the taunting?

    The kids were wrong to taunt her, but she was wrong to let it take her to that point. It's HER fault she died. SHE made the choice. I didn't see her fellow peers do it.

    those kids are NOT Christian (3.50 / 10) (#236)
    by Bridge Troll on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 04:35:45 PM EST

    I consider myself a Christian.

    My girlfriend is Wiccan.

    I love her very much (hi Ashley!),and never in my life would I ever consider making fun of someone just because their religion was different, even a "fringe" religion like Wicca. Besides, are the concepts of "Do no harm" and "Love thy neighbor" so fundamentally incompatible? At the core, most religions promote the same base: Love each other, don't fight, there is a benevelent force looking out for you.

    These "Christians" were violating a basic premise of their faith by doing this. They ought to be ashamed of themselves, and are probably guilty of at least involuntary manslaughter, IMHO.




    And besides, pounding your meat with a club is a very satisfying thing to do :) -- Sleepy
    Tollerance (2.00 / 8) (#248)
    by AntiEgo on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 06:02:10 PM EST

    Thank you for this thoughtfull essay. It has opened my eyes to the fact that Christians are evil, and must be stopped before they ruin our tollerant society.

    Prejudice Against Christians? (3.54 / 11) (#250)
    by thegreatbadger on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 06:31:59 PM EST

    I find it more than a bit hypocritical that posters here and at Slashdot are always preaching tolerance, while many are totally intolerant of the religious beliefs of others. The logic here seems to be that because some Christians are intolerant, then by default all are intolerant. By this logic, because the two kids responsible for Columbine liked Doom and other videogames, anyone interested in such games is also likely to go on a rampage. Makes a lot of sense huh?
    In the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair. But Gollum and the Evil One crept up and slipped away with her.
    Law of the Playground (2.66 / 3) (#256)
    by zak on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 07:33:32 PM EST

    As Leviathan said, I think you should look for the obvious answer. And while you're at it, check out http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/rdd18/playground/ Which is a shocking/hilarious site devoted to school bullying. Slanted towards British school culture.

    As a member... (3.90 / 11) (#259)
    by Lai Lai Boy on Fri Mar 16, 2001 at 08:40:23 PM EST

    of a religion often poorly percieved by outsiders (Islam), I find it wrong to equate all of Christanity with the actions of these children.

    That this girl was driven to sucide is horrible. But is wrong to assume all Christains are like these children. It's the same for me, when one equates terrorists with real Islam.

    People like that aren't truly Christain or Muslim - it just makes good headlines.

    Lai Lai Boy

    [Posted from Mozilla Firebird]

    So what? (2.25 / 4) (#271)
    by samsara on Sat Mar 17, 2001 at 10:43:45 AM EST

    Religeon in any form is one of the most beautiful things we have. I have a deep respect for the beliefs in others, even if those beliefs are agnostic in nature. What I don't see however, is the direct relationship between Christianity and this girl's suicide. She was bullied, and they found a button they could push...that's it. Some bullies use size, race, sex, or just plain looks to push someone over the edge. In this case, it was religeon. The title to this post is obvious baiting to spark the "Christianity Sucks!, God is good" debate. I'm sorry I had to contribute to it...but it's only a symptom to a much larger problem which is unregulated bullying in our schools.

    Selfish groupthink killed Tempest Smith (3.60 / 5) (#273)
    by leonbrooks on Sat Mar 17, 2001 at 11:47:54 AM EST

    It becomes very tempting at this point to blame a society and media heavily dominated by Christians. To say that the story of a Christian persecuted for her beliefs is seen as more valid than the persecution of someone who follows a less established religion.
    You could play Madlib quite happily with this for some time. Cast it in racist terms and it would be just as true. Which is very sad, because a genuine, working Christianity would by definition exclude taunting and so would stand out as more than just another member of the set ``religion.''

    What's really going on is that Tempest was being taunted for being a member of a different social group.

    Put it in the context ``school'' and suddenly the perspective changes. I have a lot to say on that topic, but this is not limited to school.

    You could write it off as just ``kids being kids,'' but that would also be stupid and irresponsible - and highly unfair: not all children are like that.

    This is really more of the particular brand of human stupidity which I call ``football team theology,'' and it's becoming so important with George W Bush running around implementing religious-right policies as fast as he can sign documents that I think I'll write a whole K5 article on it and the chilling consequences we face. Maybe tomorrow night if I'm not exhausted after the planned day's running around (happy birthday, Aiyana).
    -- If at first you don't succeed, try a shorter bungee

    My thoughts (4.22 / 9) (#282)
    by enterfornone on Sat Mar 17, 2001 at 08:03:49 PM EST

    Most of this has been said already, but if anyone is still reading these comments....

    First, this wasn't because they were christians and she was wiccan, it was because they were "normal" and she was different. Simple as that.

    That said, there are many christians who belive Wiccans are the witches mentioned in the badly translated passages of the KJV. There are also any christians who think Wiccans practice the completely fictitions religion of gothic satanism.

    Second, most of the "true" Christians I know are very kind and tolerant people. While many believe that non-christians are misguided, they express this with love not hate. A true Christian would have gone out of their way to be this girl's best friend in order to "save" her. Such Christians are a very small minority however.

    Most "Christian intolerance" comes from the much larger group of "Christians" who think that some vague intellectual belief in Jesus and being straight are the only things they need to get to heaven. These people are numerous, however I don't think its fair to call them Christians.

    --
    efn 26/m/syd
    Will sponsor new accounts for porn.

    Jack Chick Christianity (4.25 / 4) (#283)
    by forrest on Sat Mar 17, 2001 at 11:33:02 PM EST

    This story reminds me of the sort of Christianity promoted by Jack Chick's little cartoon tracts.

    Those were sooooo popular at my high school -- I'm sure I was given many by people wanting to "save" me.

    I've heard a lot of people say, those aren't real Christians, but I don't know about that. This letter to the editor of a Georgia newspaper from a Christian minister seems to reflect a very common flavor of that religion.

    Can a religion that teaches that everyone is born evil, and only those who follow the One True Way can ever overcome their inherent badness, ever truly be tolerant of other beliefs? How could it? Hey, if you don't believe ...you're evil. To many Christians (those whose views are represented by the links above), it's as simple as that.



    What happen ? (3.00 / 10) (#288)
    by kitten on Sun Mar 18, 2001 at 05:12:58 AM EST

    An earlier post begged readers:
    Someone, please, show me where in the gospels Jesus says anything about persecuting those who did not have faith in him. You won't, because he says quite the opposite: love those who hate you, and do good to those who persecute you.

    I'd reply to that directly, but I hope that my post has more to say than simply answering that question and being done with it.
    At any rate.
    Jesus pronounced that he was identical with the God of the Old Testament called Jehovah on several occasions (one is John x 30). This claim to oneness with God renders Jesus liable for any mistakes Jehovah may have
    According to the scriptures themselves which anyone may freely search, God advised, permitted, or countenanced:
    Deception (Ezek xiv, 9) , stealing (Ex iii, 21-22) , murder (Deut vii 16), killing of witches (Ex xxii 8), slavery (Lev xxv, 44-46), capital punishment for rebellious sons (Deut xxi 18-21), and other acts representing the concepts of this pre-industrial, pre-scientific society.

    As for Jesus himself, well. He wasn't always the protector of peace and harmony that he is revered as. In several cases, Jesus threatens unbelievers with the idea of a physical Hell in which people spend eternity in torment for the 'sin' of disbelief. (see Mark ix 43, Matt xxiii 33, Luke xiii 3 Mark iii 29, and many others).
    Jesus threatened his hearers with death if they did not agree with him (Luke xiv 26, John viii 24).
    Several comments made by Jesus show a remarkable acceptance of the violence and strife that affects the planet. Matt xxiv 6-7, Mark xiii 7-8, Luke xxi 9-10, and several others all include remarks which accept war: "For Nation shall rise against Nation, and Kingdom against Kingdom" he would say, including a warning to all his listeners to not be afraid when they heard of wars in far off places. These statements show that he believed war to be inevitable. Did he not feel competent enough to counteract mass militia? He offers no pacifist solutions for settling international disputes, no policy of war resistance, and no peaceful substitute for war between nations. He advocated "Love thy neighbor" but never criticized war.
    Other remarks of Jesus favor violence. "Suppose ye that I come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay, but rather, division." (Luke xii 21-22.) "Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matt x 34.)
    In Matt xxvi 52, we find Jesus preparing his disciples with weapons. "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one... And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, That is enough." Thus did the supposedly nonviolent Jesus arm his followers with swords. True, they were for defense only, and Jesus did in fact discourage their use when the disciples thought they should strike, but nevertheless, he armed his followers instead of adhering to his principle of non-resistance. He did not set a positive example of disarmament. Jesus took diametrically opposed positions, since the use of swords and the principle of non-resistance are mutually exclusive. He preached non-violence while arming his companions with swords.

    From these examples and many others, I can't sit here and listen to everyone say "The bullies weren't true Christians, because they were mean and borderline violent, and that isn't the way of Christ."
    It seems to me that they were doing a pretty good job of executing the program that Jesus had set forth.

    It's my opinion that in general, the world would be a much more peaceful place without religion; so much of the strife and hate stems from petty disagreements regarding doctrines.

    I see a lot of people trying to dismiss the entire case as being secular: "The teasing wasn't really about religion, it was about being different. They simply found a way in which this girl was different and exploited it."
    That may well be true; kids will tease each other about their weight, gender, size, even their name. However, with most other exploits, the victim can at least shrug it off with "hey, it isn't my fault I'm ugly/fat/small/have a funny name". Relentlessly attacking someone's personal set of beliefs, it seems to me, is much more damaging, as it implies that this person is evil because they chose to be.
    mirrorshades radio - darkwave, synthpop, industrial, futurepop.
    What??? (2.57 / 7) (#296)
    by sombragris on Mon Mar 19, 2001 at 03:15:57 AM EST

    It becomes very tempting at this point to blame a society and media heavily dominated by Christians. To say that the story of a Christian persecuted for her beliefs is seen as more valid than the persecution of someone who follows a less established religion.


    To say such a thing shows an extreme ignorance of the public media, or of the public state of Christianity in America, or even of both.

    EA, Please do better next time.

    Why must we blame the child or the taunts? (2.66 / 6) (#298)
    by jester69 on Mon Mar 19, 2001 at 01:30:08 PM EST

    Suicide is always a tragedy. But, this story highlights something I hate to bring up amidst grief, but is a valid point.

    My belief is that the events of the world cannot make you "feel" one way or the other. Everything that goes on in the world has to be filtered through our perception... And this mechanism colors everything so that one cannot really ever experience the world as it truly is.

    Try to imagine the situation that she experienced, now picture a person that could handle it, what would they do? Everyones idea of a response would be different but i am sure there are just as many that dont lead to suicide as there are that do....

    I think the real place to lay blame for a tragedy such as this isn't at the feet of those doing the taunting, Nor on the girl. The blame lies in not teaching people that the events of the world have no sway over your mental health, who you are, or anything that matters emotionally.

    People need to learn that the world has only as much power as you give it, no more no less... The real key to happiness lies inside.

    I have had problems with suicidal depression in the past, so i know of what i speak. Medication has helped, but, what has helped infinitely more is being introduced to the idea that other people DO NOT have any way to make me feel good or bad. I do it all myself, therefore the power to change how i feel lies not in changing the world so it treats me better, but changing my perceptions to realize that people cannot hurt me emotionally. Their words have to go through my perception and it is my decision how to interpret them, and how to react.

    This revelation ended the blame game of pointing the finger at the world, and began my path into self discovery that has ultimately left me a happy person most of the time.

    the jester
    Its a lemming thing, Jeep owners would understand.
    Problem here lies with the american right (2.75 / 8) (#312)
    by TheBlueJackal on Tue Mar 20, 2001 at 08:57:13 AM EST

    This situation is made worse by the abundance of right wing politics in US media and government.

    The president is a jock, most of the senators were jocks, arrogant, corrupt, old-boy-network shysters.

    The schools are anti-difference, trying to breed GAP ad kids all the same with the same figure, religion (mid west creationism wacko US interpretation of bible) and same clothes and no racial or religious tolerance.

    This is exasperated by right wing parties pushing there own wacko christian fundamentalist ideas in schools (US Flag on the wall, Christian bias enshrined in the government and education systems) and the huge intolerance of the majority of voters in the US (well close enough to elect an intolerant and jockstrap brained spoilt coke snorting criminal corrupt president) teach their kids the same stupid intolerant bullshit.

    The US is looked on by the rest of the first world as a bunch of crazy gun-toting, religious and racist bigots little improved from the extremists who left plymouth to start their own puritanical country (they seem to have been succesful).

    Yes thats very harsh, and doesn't apply to the majority (of population as opposed to people who's votes elected a president) but religious intolerence isn't natural to kids, its ingrained as they were bought up and by their environment - this says a lot about the environment that the US provides for its children.

    Ajt. The Blue Jackal

    Democracy reflects high school social conditioning (3.00 / 2) (#318)
    by DrKlip on Wed Mar 21, 2001 at 02:46:24 PM EST

    From the Detroit News Article: "Experience shows that about 15 percent of students do the teasing; 10 percent are teased; and 75 percent are glad they don't get teased," Kinda how in the last election, 15% voted for Jock Boy W, 15(.1+-.11)% sympathized with Sad Sack Al, and the other 70% were glad to get through the day without "The Man" fucking them over...

    Bullies' Guilt (3.57 / 7) (#320)
    by desiree on Wed Mar 21, 2001 at 10:22:47 PM EST

    There's a comment a ways down this page that I really feel the need to respond to, the one that says the grief and guilt of the children who used to pick on this girl was obviously fake and to be scorned.

    I'm going to out myself here. I was a taunter in junior high. Okay, not one of the sociopathic ones who locked peers in closets or forced them to eat cat turds, or even beat up on the playground. But I picked on kids who weren't like me. I called names. I did a lot of sneering. Immature, rude behavior? Absolutely. But it wasn't because I was an evil, intolerant, cruel person who liked inflicting pain, or had mental problems, or even (I think) had particular self-esteem issues. It was because I was an immature, rude child, and it wasn't till many years later that I realized the full effect my behavior was having on others.

    My point here is this: if some kid I'd teased had killed herself because of it, I would have been shocked, horrified, guilty, and very sorry. It was just a game to me, and I had no idea that it might be more than that to somebody else.

    When I have kids, I'm going to try to convey to them how seriously other people can take hurtful things they say. If I'd really realized that, I wouldn't have done it. I know because by the time I got to high school, I'd figured enough of it out to stop. I'm betting a lot of teasers are like that too, and that these kids are genuinely remorseful over their taunted classmate's suicide. I never wanted anyone to kill themselves, geez; I never even wanted anyone to sit alone in their room and cry for two hours, and if I knew some kid I was teasing was doing that, I would have thought twice about it.

    The answer here, I think, is to realize that KIDS ARE NARCISSISTIC. They think their own life experiences are the only thing in the whole world. Bullies and teasers just like winning interactions; for the most part they don't have any comprehension that their actions can have repercussions long after the fact, because for THEM they don't. I didn't remember saying something mean to somebody later that night, so why would they? Meanwhile, the kids who are teased take that way out of proportion--for them it's the sum of their whole existence, and it makes the whole world seem unbearable and intolerable. So some kids pick on others for no good reason, and some kids go and kill themselves over something any sane grownup would completely shrug off.

    The answer, in both cases, is to teach children perspective. That's easier said than done. But if Tempest's tormentors had known how distressed they were making her, they wouldn't have done it. If Tempest herself had known that this wasn't the end of the world, maybe she wouldn't have hung herself. For my part, I'm going to try my damndest to teach my kids that there's more out there than they necessarily perceive at any given moment, and hopefully, they will be empathetic enough not to bully other kids OR to try to kill themselves every time they think the world is crashing down around them.

    Is religious tolerance the answer? (3.00 / 2) (#328)
    by dosgod98 on Thu Mar 22, 2001 at 07:56:00 PM EST

    It is interesting that people who advocate religious tolerance will usually denounce christianity in their next breath. This is largely because most people don't realize what religious tolerance is. It is a passive action. Most people will immediately want to blame either the children or the Christian church. But that is merely guilt by association. If all of the Children had been wiccan and she the only christian, the outcome could very well have been identical.
    It comes down to this. Children behave in the fashion that they are taught to behave by their environment. Only if the rules of their environment are challenged will they question them. It is simply, "the way things work" to them. If we are teach our children to accept the existence of other religions, we need to begin with ourselves. Until we let go of the preconceived notions of who is right and who is wrong, we cannot teach our children to do the same. The best thing that we can teach our children is how to question, in hopes that the act of questioning will open their minds to a point where they will understand the answers that they will find.

    Persecution vs. Ridicule (3.33 / 3) (#339)
    by Tjekanefir on Fri Mar 23, 2001 at 11:56:09 AM EST

    This is an interesting discussion. I'm new here, but after skimming through all the responses to this article I wanted to stick my two cents in on a couple of religious matters.

    First: People seem to be arguing a lot about whether Christianity is the *most* oppressed religion in the United States or the *least*. But the people on either side of this are talking past each other, because they're talking about different things. As the majority religion in the country, Christianity is by far the least PERSECUTED religion. When have you ever heard about anybody fired from a job or attacked because they went to church on Sundays? On the other hand, it's by far the most RIDICULED religion. Because so many people are familiar with it, because people who were raised Christian feel entitled to mock it and there are many of them, and because it is the only religion powerful enough to have a real social agenda (with which many disagree), Christianity is the butt of MANY more jokes and diatribes than any other religion.

    Persecution and ridicule are two different things, though it's probably obvious I disagree with both. But Christianity is not even *slightly* persecuted or oppressed in this country. Sorry, but it's not "persecution" to be prevented from legally imposing your religious views upon others. Persecution is when you are attacked, harassed, and discriminated against because of what you believe. Not being allowed to make a public school teach the Bible isn't persecution; having your Bible confiscated, being forced to teach evolution or the Koran in Sunday School, churches shut down, barred from jobs or neighborhoods unless you convert to another faith, or, to a certain extent, your children being forced to pray to Allah in public school, would be persecution.

    I'm going to put my second point in a different post, this one is getting long.

    More Religious Distinctions (5.00 / 2) (#340)
    by Tjekanefir on Fri Mar 23, 2001 at 12:13:02 PM EST

    In the same way, I think there's a distinction to be made between religious intolerance and, well, individualism intolerance. The girl in this article did not come from a Wiccan family. She was not being harassed for her race, ethnicity, or religion. She was being harassed for doing her own thing--among other things, reading a book about Wicca. This is equally insidious, and equally wrong, but I think it's an important distinction. The girl's culture/family/belief system wasn't under attack, her *right to free expression* was under attack. I'm sure most of us recognize that pattern from our own schooldays. I was ridiculed primarily for reading "boring" (complicated) books, working hard at classes, and liking weird music (folk music, in my case). I was a geek. Other friends were ridiculed for their clothes, their choices of friends, playing with computers, and other various interests of theirs. Being mocked for reading books about Wicca (as well as wearing goth clothing and writing poetry, according to the article) is really another instance of this: kids harassing another kid for doing his or her own thing, for asserting him or herself as an individual. That's very wrong and deserves attention, but Christian hymns aren't to blame for any of it. If this poor girl had liked, say, classical music, you can bet they would all have been bumping and grinding Ricky Martin at her.

    *pays 2 cents*

    Shallow US Americans (3.00 / 2) (#342)
    by heresy on Sun Mar 25, 2001 at 02:51:37 PM EST

    There isn't much difference between the girl who kills herself and the boys who shoot up their classmates. Like that posted before, it is a reaction to the treatment of an individual by their peers. In all cases the people got what they asked for. Most people really don't understand themselves. They don't understand what it means to live. I can speak only of the US, but I assume that the following is true for a large part of the world - people find it easier to blame than take responsibility for themselves. No action, or reaction, can be attributed to any cult actions, such as Christianity. No one can blame another for the way they feel or act. All of this is self imposed. While I agree that the actions of the girl's peers (and the boys of Colombine) are really terrible, the reaction is just as bad. I don't feel sorry for those who were shot up any more than I feel sorry for the girl who hanged herself. I do feel sorry that they weren't able to see themselves for who they really are and actualize their own selves. You can't do anything in this country without having someone, or some marketing campaign telling you who to be and how to act. We seem to have forgotten that acting on these messages is a personal choice. We define ourselves, not our peers and not our TV sets. You as an individual can be anything you want to be. The people as a group can be much more than what we allow when we believe in ourselves and take responsibility for our own actions. We get so wrapped up in blame, and fear of blame, that we do not progress. Infact, it will be what kills us all. What has happened so far is only a small taste of what is to come unless there is change. Will people change? Of course not. That is too difficult isn't it? It's too easy to blame, too difficult to be responsible. No religion, no marketing group, no government action, no social action is going to change the course. This way of living is a failure. This society is a failure. It is time to accept that and change. Change the way you live or die by the way you live. Don't agree? Then place the blame on someone else and watch your TV's. Those who know better will survive.

    12 Year Old Girl Commits Suicide After Christian Taunts. | 351 comments (297 topical, 54 editorial, 5 hidden)
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